The Lord's Prayer

[Grace777x70]

Seeing as I am not allowed to post directly in another thread my beliefs but only can send a link - I will post what I have said in the past in here and leave it at that.

I might also post what some others have said in the past concerning the Lord's Prayer as it is commonly called.

There are many good profitable things we can learn from the Lord's prayer when He taught the disciples in the time period they were in but to repeat it like it is written is actually doing the complete opposite of what Jesus said NOT to do in Matt 6:7.

The fact remains IMO that even though there are great things to learn from this prayer - it was for the time period between Christ living and Christ dying and rising from the dead.

If you notice - Jesus did not say to pray in His name in Matt. 6. When He was about to die - He changed the way the disciples prayed by saying. John 16

John 16:22-26 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.


[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

I realize that this truth may be against our church upbringing and what we have been taught but the understanding of these truths will allow us to grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and to walk fully in the reality of the New Covenant.

 

[Grace777x70]

I too believe that the "disciples prayer" ( which would be a better term for this prayer ) was really a transitional prayer to be prayed until the bringing the kingdom of God "in" us which is after Christ arose from the dead and His ascension.

Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "Near or at hand" at the start of His ministry because He Himself was there with them.

Then He says later that the kingdom of God shall be"in" you.

This prayer would be used to bring this about on the earth and Christ did do this very thing for us in solidifying the New Covenant.

As, I said - there will be a lot of emotional responses to this teaching as it goes against what we have been taught in our religious upbringing. Let every person be persuaded in their heart on this matter.

Personally knowing the truths about this prayer has helped me immensely in my walk with the Lord and as I say -there are many principles to learn from this prayer that are still applicable to us now in 2017.

 

[Grace777x70]

Without looking at all scripture through the lens of the finished work of Christ - we end up mixing up covenants and causing a complete mess.

If people want to daily "recite" the Lord's prayer as it is called by some - go for it. Recite it a hundred times a day if you like - 200 times on sunday or Saturday.

I personally use some of the elements in the prayer but I never recite it and I believe it was a transitional prayer before the cross and resurrection for now the kingdom has come into us - the believers after the day of Pentecost.

If people believe differently - go for it. I know some have an evangelical anaphylactic episode if their church teachings are challenged and I understand that.

As I have said - there are many good things we can use in that transitional prayer and I incorporate them without even thinking about it.

The reason for the antagonistic reaction to the prayer model is that in the New Covenant we don't need to forgive in order to be forgiven as has been posted by many in other posts.

In the New Covenant we do however now forgive because we are in Christ because we have already been forgiven and it is our nature now to forgive as I have posted many times.

Read the word-for-word accounts in Acts 10 & 13 that show the real gospel being preached by Peter and Paul and there is no mention of forgiving in order to be forgiven nor is there one verse in the entire epistles stating this either.

If it was so important that we will not be forgiven - you would think that it would have been mentioned at least one time in the epistles written to the churches. I mean after all - heaven and hell are at stake here.

No, the truth is - we are forgiven by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ in the New Covenant "after" Jesus finished the work on the cross and resurrection.

And it is all according to "His riches in grace" - not if someone forgives first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

If people want to believe something else - go for it! You are free to believe what you want. Jesus said - you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free! Thank you Lord Jesus!

If people view it differently - you are free in Christ to do so. I will not malign and slander you if you believe something different.

We forgive now because we are new creations in Christ created in righteousness and holiness.

We love because He first loved us. We forgive because we have been forgiven for His name's sake. This is the kingdom dynamic in the New Covenant.

We have a new nature so let's feed Christians on the love and grace of God in Christ and we will walk out what already is in us in Christ so that the world can see the true nature of the Father for them.

 

[trofimus]

Its very well documented that the first Church prayed the Lord's prayer 3 times a day.

When you look at the composition of the prayer, I think its apparent that "do not use too much words" principle does not apply.

I think we should say things like "Your name be glorified" almost without cease.

It seems to me that Jesus had problem only with repeating "give me, give me, give me" and people thinking that they will receive based on the number of repeating.

 

[Grace777x70]

The gospel message is this:

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Grace777x70]

Its very well documented that the first Church prayed the Lord's prayer 3 times a day.

When you look at the composition of the prayer, I think its apparent that "do not use too much words" principle does not apply.

I think we should say things like "Your name be glorified" almost without cease.

I agree that we can use many principles from it. I also like to say "Your kingdom is in me now that it has come - Your will is being done" and as an act of faith in that it is God who is at work in us - both to do and to will of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

 

[trofimus]

I agree that we can use many principles from it. I also like to say "Your kingdom is in me now that it has come - Your will is being done" and as an act of faith in that it is God who is at work in us - both to do and to will of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

Why just principles? Why not all of it?

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

Yes of course Grace777 - nothing Jesus taught before His resurrection applies to us. #deluded

Seeing as I am not allowed to post directly in another thread my beliefs but only can send a link - I will post what I have said in the past in here and leave it at that.

I might also post what some others have said in the past concerning the Lord's Prayer as it is commonly called.

There are many good profitable things we can learn from the Lord's prayer when He taught the disciples in the time period they were in but to repeat it like it is written is actually doing the complete opposite of what Jesus said NOT to do in Matt 6:7.

The fact remains IMO that even though there are great things to learn from this prayer - it was for the time period between Christ living and Christ dying and rising from the dead.

If you notice - Jesus did not say to pray in His name in Matt. 6. When He was about to die - He changed the way the disciples prayed by saying. John 16

John 16:22-26 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.

[SUP]23[/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.


[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

I realize that this truth may be against our church upbringing and what we have been taught but the understanding of these truths will allow us to grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and to walk fully in the reality of the New Covenant.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is scripture after the Cross about forgiveness. We need to throw all these out if we need to forgive before we are forgiven.

Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes of course Grace777 - nothing Jesus taught before His resurrection applies to us. #deluded

This is exactly the type of behavior that comes when people deceitfully say something that is NOT said.

No one has said that "nothing Jesus taught before His resurrection applies to us".

What is really being said is that we must rightly divide the word and filter all scripture through the finished work of Christ.

 

[trofimus]

Bible does not say we should not pray it anymore, first apostolic church prayed it regularly every day several times, church prays it for 2000 years in all branches, including protestants.

So if there is no serious reason, I would not move "ancient landmarks".

 

[Grace777x70]

Why just principles? Why not all of it?

Why would you pray for the kingdom of God to come when it has already come?

In the Old Testament the scriptures talk about a Messiah that will come and die on the cross for sinners. Why don't we pray to God and ask Him to send the Messiah now?

 

[trofimus]

What is really being said is that we must rightly divide the word and filter all scripture through the finished work of Christ.

This can be truth, but I am quite afraid of that filter...

 

[loveme1]

We were taught that it would be better to cut off our right hand if it causes us to stumble...

 

[trofimus]

Why would you pray for the kingdom of God to come when it has already come?

In the Old Testament the scriptures talk about a Messiah that will come and die on the cross for sinners. Why don't we pray to God and ask Him to send the Messiah now?

Jesus said that the kingdom of God already came to them (even before His death and resurrection). In the same "era" he taught to pray "Let your kingdom come".

For me it means that the spiritual kingdom is not what is meant in the prayer, but the visible and full one, after His return.

 

[Grace777x70]

Bible does not say we should not pray it anymore, first apostolic church prayed it regularly every day several times, church prays it for 2000 years in all branches, including protestants.

So if there is no serious reason, I would not move "ancient landmarks".

Don't you find it interesting that no place in the epistles to the churches is this prayer mentioned or that we are to do it?

The epistles are all independent letters from the apostles to the churches.

People are free to pray whatever they want. How they respond to their Father and Lord is between them and Them. ( a little play on words there.."them on Them." )

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Jesus said that was the way to pray, not this is THE PRAYER to repeat

I think it is a "recipe" for prayer, be it in Jesus' name or not

 

[trofimus]

Don't you find it interesting that no place in the epistles to the churches is this prayer mentioned or that we are to do it?

The epistles are all independent letters from the apostles to the churches.

People are free to pray whatever they want. How they respond to their Father and Lord is between them and Them. ( a little play on words there.."them on Them." )

Many of Jesus' teachings and historical events are not mentioned in letters. Letters were mostly "reactions" to some questions... I am not sure if the fact that the Lord's prayer is not mentioned specifically, means it was not used. Extrabiblical sources prove it was used...

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus said that the kingdom of God already came to them (even before His death and resurrection). In the same "era" he taught to pray "Let your kingdom come".

For me it means that the spiritual kingdom is not what is meant in the prayer, but the visible and full one, after His return.

Ahh..I see - so you think Jesus is asking the disciples at the time He was on earth to pray for the physical kingdom to come?

Perhaps there is an element to that.

As I said in the OP - I regularly use these principles in this prayer when I feel prompted by the Spirit of God but I don't recite it word by word. if others want to - they are free to do so.

 

[trofimus]

Jesus said that was the way to pray, not this is THE PRAYER to repeat

I think it is a "recipe" for prayer, be it in Jesus' name or not

"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name..."

Also in Greek there is nothing implying its just a pattern and not a real prayer to pray.