In regards to how and one discerns true Christianity I am wondering how most of you folks do this because the vast majority of you folks from my understanding define a Christian in the sense of one that has faith in Jesus as the true and foretold messiah as well as the savior of mankind as well as someone who takes faith in the triune nature of the one true God. Now granted this would in and of itself would remove a boatload of religions within the scope of Christendom from even being possibly considered "true Christians" as certain sects such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christedelphians, 7th Day Adventists as well as certain Pentecostal groups. But the question that should be asked is (and I mean no intent of argument by this it is for the sake of dialogue) how is someone such as Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell any different from Martin Luther or John Calvin? All 4 of these folks brought a "new doctrinal understanding all together" to the people of Christendom which from as far as I know goes against the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 16 "For the gates of Hell shall not prevail"; on the same note it also begs the question why are groups such as Catholics and Orthodox Christians often lumped together with sects such as Mormons what is the reasoning behind this anyhow as there is no clear historical gap with either group and earlier Christianity in that sense as there is with the reformation or the restoration era nor do these groups deny the trinity or the validity of Christ's sacrifice and resurrection so not only am I wondering what is the reasoning behind why Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy is lumped in with Mormonism but why are they by many not even considered true Christians when they accept the basic definition of Christianity most western protestant churches teach which was stated earlier.
"interfaith discussion"
- Thread starter RexCA
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Martin Luther or John Calvin men who protectd sola scriptura)did not violate the warning to not add to His book of the law, called the book of prophecy the Bible as a oral tradition of men as did the false prophets of certain sects such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christedelphians,denying the grace of God, therefore using their false prophecy or private interpretations of men to make the word of God without effect. No man can serve two masters .as if God was still bringing new revelations as His interpretation
One discerns true Christianity by the following criteria:
1. Does the individual or group believe in and teach that the Holy Bible (66 books) is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God and that there are no other books which can be accepted as canonical?
2. Do they believe that Jesus is God (without any equivocation) and that the triune Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
3. Do they preach the true Gospel which is that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption, plus nothing?
Joseph Smith (actually Brigham Young his associate) taught that Adam was God and that we all will become gods. Charles Taze Russell rejected the deity of Christ and the Trinity.
Well they are lumped together not because their doctrines are all the same, but because they preach "another Gospel" -- a Gospel which says that we are saved by grace + works + sacraments + what have you. Paul said that there is a curse on anyone who brings any other Gospel than the one he preached, which is the Gospel of grace.
This is just an overview, since there are numerous other doctrines within these groups which are not supported by Scripture, but only by "Holy Tradition".
1. Does the individual or group believe in and teach that the Holy Bible (66 books) is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God and that there are no other books which can be accepted as canonical?
2. Do they believe that Jesus is God (without any equivocation) and that the triune Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
3. Do they preach the true Gospel which is that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption, plus nothing?
Joseph Smith (actually Brigham Young his associate) taught that Adam was God and that we all will become gods. Charles Taze Russell rejected the deity of Christ and the Trinity.
Well they are lumped together not because their doctrines are all the same, but because they preach "another Gospel" -- a Gospel which says that we are saved by grace + works + sacraments + what have you. Paul said that there is a curse on anyone who brings any other Gospel than the one he preached, which is the Gospel of grace.
This is just an overview, since there are numerous other doctrines within these groups which are not supported by Scripture, but only by "Holy Tradition".
same with all the other "solas" where in the scriptures can they be found my point is not everything in the scriptures is that clearcut and dry by what "external" source is one supposed to understand the validity of their understanding of scripture much less by what source do you know that 66 is the proper cannon I'm not trying to be argumentative in the least even if it appears that way I'm questioning how a Mormon's interpretation is considered less valid but say a Baptists is considered "pure" because he came to "true conclusions" on his own???
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7:13)
If this is not sufficient for anyone, then nothing will suffice.
this is referring to as it is better put in some translations "traditions of men" traditions that contradict the scriptures this in itself has nothing to do with weather or not sola scriptora is an accurate theological viewpoint it is merely saying that man made traditions are bad Christ wasn't even condemning Jewish tradition as a whole just the ones that were going on at the time among certain corrupt Pharisees as a means saving power among themselves
that's actually partially my point alot of people say as long as you got the trinity or as long as you got Jesus you are a true Christian I'm merely pointing out as an outsider looking in (I'm from a different Christian tradition than most of you folks) that this way of explaining Christanity can be at times conflicting
If you can't or won't put two and two together, why waste your time here. The "traditions of men" (whether Jewish, Catholic, or Orthodox) are all in the same category. They nullify the Word of God i.e. make it of none effect. Which automatically takes us to man shall not live by bread alone but by every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God. We can have either traditions or Scripture, but we cannot have both.
Also when Paul mentions traditions, he already understands this, and apostolic traditions where teachings HANDED DOWN by Christ to the apostles, who then handed them down to faithful men. They could not possibly be in conflict with the Word of God.
Also when Paul mentions traditions, he already understands this, and apostolic traditions where teachings HANDED DOWN by Christ to the apostles, who then handed them down to faithful men. They could not possibly be in conflict with the Word of God.
We use the Bible.. The Gospel scriptures as the measuring template to determine what true Christianity is and what false christianity is.. From that we can see catholicism is a false religion and thereby we reject it as being Christian.. I would encourage you to read the Gospels and compare it with the doctrines pushed by different churches and you will see that some churches are not in fact Christian..
Not "everything" but the things which are critical are clear cut and dry. Let's take the matter of salvation. Here is just one passage which makes is simple and clear so that there is no misunderstanding (Acts 16:27-31):
27And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Now Paul did not say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, AND be baptized AND observe all the sacraments and thou shalt be saved".
Should we take this at face value then? Absolutely, because the Lord Jesus Christ had already said the same thing in slightly different words (John 11:25,26):
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The external source is the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) Himself. He confirms whether this understanding is true or false.
This is a good point to focus on the traditions of men. The Catholic Church adopted the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) which had also included all the non-canonical books known as the Apocrypha. Now had the Catholic Church believed their own scholar Jerome, they would have never incorporated the Apocrypha into the Bible, since Jerome made it clear that those books were not a part of the Hebrew Bible.
But they did not even have to take Jerome's word for it, since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself confirmed that the Old Testament which we have is limited to the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh). Where did He say this? In the Gospel of Luke (24:44):
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in [1] the law of Moses, and in [2] the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me.
Those are the three major division of the Hebrew Old Testament:
The Law (Torah) -- 5 books
The Prophets (Neviim) -- 8 books
The Psalms (Kethuvim) -- 11 books
Our OT simply subdivides these 24 books to produce 39 books, and when you add 27 books of the NT, you get 66 books. As you can see, the Apocrypha has no place in Scripture.
27And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Now Paul did not say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, AND be baptized AND observe all the sacraments and thou shalt be saved".
Should we take this at face value then? Absolutely, because the Lord Jesus Christ had already said the same thing in slightly different words (John 11:25,26):
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The external source is the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) Himself. He confirms whether this understanding is true or false.
This is a good point to focus on the traditions of men. The Catholic Church adopted the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) which had also included all the non-canonical books known as the Apocrypha. Now had the Catholic Church believed their own scholar Jerome, they would have never incorporated the Apocrypha into the Bible, since Jerome made it clear that those books were not a part of the Hebrew Bible.
But they did not even have to take Jerome's word for it, since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself confirmed that the Old Testament which we have is limited to the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh). Where did He say this? In the Gospel of Luke (24:44):
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in [1] the law of Moses, and in [2] the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me.
Those are the three major division of the Hebrew Old Testament:
The Law (Torah) -- 5 books
The Prophets (Neviim) -- 8 books
The Psalms (Kethuvim) -- 11 books
Our OT simply subdivides these 24 books to produce 39 books, and when you add 27 books of the NT, you get 66 books. As you can see, the Apocrypha has no place in Scripture.
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There are not many faiths (belief systems), there is "One Lord, one Faith, and one baptism." Jesus is the Head (authority) of His body (the church). There are not many bodies and one head, and there are not many heads to the one body of believers. There is only one true church of Christ, all others are false.
If it doesn't match the Bible it's false. For example, Catholics go directly against the Bible...
Do not call anyone one earth father
They like to wear long tassels and sit in the most important seats
They forbid people to marry and abstain from certain foods
They say to pray to or through Mary- there is one mediator between God and mankind- the man Jesus Christ
God appointed elders for each congregation, but never appointed anyone over all the congregations- only Jesus is the head
Do not add to the Word nor take away from it- Catholics added and call it the catholic bible
The catholic religion, like so many others, go against the Bible- and that's how you can tell they are false. All these 'branch off' churches start by someone following 'deceiving spirits' instead of following the Word.
"And they studied the scriptures daily to see if what the apostles said was true."
If it doesn't match the Bible it's false. For example, Catholics go directly against the Bible...
Do not call anyone one earth father
They like to wear long tassels and sit in the most important seats
They forbid people to marry and abstain from certain foods
They say to pray to or through Mary- there is one mediator between God and mankind- the man Jesus Christ
God appointed elders for each congregation, but never appointed anyone over all the congregations- only Jesus is the head
Do not add to the Word nor take away from it- Catholics added and call it the catholic bible
The catholic religion, like so many others, go against the Bible- and that's how you can tell they are false. All these 'branch off' churches start by someone following 'deceiving spirits' instead of following the Word.
"And they studied the scriptures daily to see if what the apostles said was true."
Think about what you're asking. How is anyone saved? It is by grace through faith, as Ephesians 2:8,9 avers. Without faith, none can be saved, seeing God has chosen to justify the nations by faith.[Galatians 3:8] And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ[Romans 10:17](NASB uses Christ with a footnote saying concerning Christ.) There is no other way to know about Him, no other way to have faith than by His word. That's what Sola Scritpura avers. The scriptures are our sole authority concerning faith and practice.
Look at it like this. Someone tells you there's a place that is wonderful. They tell you all that is there. In your mind, you picture the prettiest place ever. Now, you ask them how can you get there and they say they don't know. They don't even give you a map, as they don't have a map either.
The bible is our roadmap that leads us to God and where He dwells. Without it, none of us would know anything about Him, or even how to get where He is.
Look at it like this. Someone tells you there's a place that is wonderful. They tell you all that is there. In your mind, you picture the prettiest place ever. Now, you ask them how can you get there and they say they don't know. They don't even give you a map, as they don't have a map either.
The bible is our roadmap that leads us to God and where He dwells. Without it, none of us would know anything about Him, or even how to get where He is.
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making this post in general was probably a bad idea as I should have foreseen what it would lead to but as you point out that "apostolic traditions" would be proper traditions since they would be from Christ who in proper Christian theology would be God himself this leads to my next point what is the point of the semantics of accusing one group of following "traditions of men" as they are making the exact same claim the Catholics would say that their sacraments are directly from Christ generally with scriptural verses my point is that telling someone to simply read the gospel does not lead one to the faith as there are numerous different religions under the scope of Christendom many of which have very odd ideas Christian Scientists for example (no I would not consider them honest Christians); the point being that if there is no external source to understand the true interpretation of scripture than how are we to understand scripture at all in this regards the solas seem almost self defeating as if there is no external source to guide us which is lead by the inspiration of the Spirit who is to say a Mormon is a less "honest Christian" than any other group that claims to be so it all seems to be semantics from this point of view.
Rexca.... seek GOD for yourself.
Repent and believe.
You can then receive the light to dazzle them that they may enquire...
If you want to be reconciled with Heavenly then believe on His Son by hearing and doing what He teaches.
We are all condemned and in unbelief without Faith.
May you have Faith that worketh love.
Ask for the Truth.... seek it with all your being....
peace and love.
Repent and believe.
You can then receive the light to dazzle them that they may enquire...
If you want to be reconciled with Heavenly then believe on His Son by hearing and doing what He teaches.
We are all condemned and in unbelief without Faith.
May you have Faith that worketh love.
Ask for the Truth.... seek it with all your being....
peace and love.
I guess I should be thankful? for the concern of where my heart is at but I think I did mention it earlier somewhere in this thread that yes I am myself a Christian I do not though share belief with the majority of the room on Christianity on certain aspects as I do not subscribe to Protestantism I was really avoiding making any post of this sort as I was trying to keep the conversation neutral grounded per se but I am Catholic I guess that would be where some of my questions are coming from no argument or as some put it "pushing me beliefs" where not the intent of this post it was meant to be a theological evaluation of certain aspects of Christianity in general but looks like this isn't going so well
yes I have read the scriptures including the deuterocanonicals more than once and yes I do have faith but to be fair since you are asking where do I put my faith? Well the answer is God through his revealed self as Jesus Christ one God in 3 persons the most sacred mystery of the trinity would be the key component to my faith and Christian faith in general
The Testimony of the Messiah gives the Words of eternal life.
There is no mystery my dear for it is written:
[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
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[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"][h=1]1 John 5King James Version (KJV)[/h]5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
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