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Thread: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by MessageOfTheCross View Post
    The Age of Accountability as Defined by God


    • Preceding paragraphs have shown that the Word of God says children are not fully capable of distinguishing between good and evil (Deu. 1:39, Isa 7:16).
    • Numbers 14:29 and Deuteronomy 1:39 establish the precedent that God will NOT hold children responsible when He brings judgment for sin.
    • What is a "child?" By inference from Numbers 14:29, a "child" is a person who is aged 19 or younger.
    • CONCLUSION: Only those persons age 20 and older are held accountable for sin.


    I am not sure this was for establishing the age of accountability for all times as it was just for coming into the promised land of the coming generations that did not rebel against the Lord out of the generations that had rebelled against the Lord for not entering the promised land when they were supposed to.

    When Israel was a nation inhabiting the land, we find this verse.


    Deuteronomy 24:16The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    So we need to address how you are applying those verses to mean.

    Preceding paragraphs have shown that the Word of God says children are not fully capable of distinguishing between good and evil (Deu. 1:39, Isa 7:16).


    Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    Numbers 14:29 and Deuteronomy 1:39 establish the precedent that God will NOT hold children responsible when He brings judgment for sin.


    Perhaps we should include this verse with this.

    Numbers 14:
    29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.

    So that judgment regarding the age of 20 & above was given because those people that murmured were 20 years of age and older. So that was addressing the youngest age of the rebellious generation and upward that had refused to enter the promised land.

    So when I read this below...

    Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    That can be attributed to applying to that day of rebellion.. those children under the age of 20 that had not rebelled against the Lord by murmuring against Him to enter the promised land. It is in that, they had no knowledge of good & evil because they had not murmured against the Lord. We look at your statement and that reference to see...

    Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD. Exodus 30:14


    Exodus 30:
    14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord.

    This was being done when they were already in the promised land. The age of 20 could just be a reminder of the age of rebellion and on up as to why an offering was to be given at that age. If we look back from that chapter for the whys of all that was being done in setting up the "Temple" for God to dwell among them...

    Exodus 29:42 This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee. 43 And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory. 44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office. 45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
    46 And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the Lord their God.


    We go unto Isaiah 7:16...

    Isaiah 7:
    16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    In context....

    Isaiah 7:
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    I doubt eating butter & honey are the means for a child to know to refuse the evil and choose the good as stated in verse 15, but any parent out there can try that diet if you want. I'd use scripture myself, not that I am a parent or even married yet.

    But as for context, this was a prophecy about Jesus Christ... if you note verse 14. And Israel was abhorred of both her kings before Jesus was born. I doubt King Herod being a subject to Roman rulers counted as a ruling king over both lands when he was just a pawn. Anyway, Jesus knew to refuse the evil and choose the good when he was born since the land was abhorred of both her kings.

    I am sure the baby Jesus, being God, knew everything. Look at Him when He was 12 years old.

    Luke 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?


    So Jesus was about His Father's business before He was water baptized by John the Baptist in Jordan.

    Anyway. Isaiah 7:16 would be raising the bar on children knowing good and evil and lowering the age of accountability from the age of 20, would it not? So I do not believe you can apply Isaiah 7:16 towards all children when that was a prophesy about Jesus Christ, and the land was abhorred of both her ruling kings before Jesus was born.

    [/QUOTE]Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD. Exodus 30:14


    God commanded those who were twenty years old and above to pay a ransom for their souls because anyone nineteen years and below were consider by God to be children and were under the protective head of the household. If he was only nineteen he was not old enough to pay a ransom for his own soul, he was still covered under his father as ransom.

    God will confirm this again in two other places of scripture. I am a firm believer in the "two witness theory," which is that there should be at least two scriptures to verify any Bible teaching that we use.

    He decided to punish them by allowing them to die in the Wilderness. Israel was condemned to wander for the next forty years in the Wilderness while these people died. But God did not sentence everyone to die in the Wilderness. Along with Joshua, Caleb and their families he spared the children of those that had sinned against him. Anyone who was twenty years and older was condemned to die in the Wilderness because God held them accountable for their sin against him. But God in his mercy spared the children. Anyone who was nineteen years and under were spared and not held accountable because God saw them as children. Above are some of the scriptures to confirm this.
    [/QUOTE]

    Let's reconsider that application as you have done it. Think about it. The rebellious people wandered in the desert ... how long? 40 years in the wilderness.

    So out of that rebellious people, no children were born unto them until 20 years later or so that was allowed to enter the promised land? That does not seem right.

    So I have to lean towards the age of 20 being chosen, not as the age of accountability, but from the age of 20 on up was the age of the rebellious people that murmured and thus refused to enter the promised land.

    Granted, one could say... that by that incident, those under the age of 20 did not know good from evil to join in murmuring against the Lord to refuse to enter into the promised land, but I am likely to believe that not one under the age of 20 had murmured because they wanted to go into the promised land.


    Deuteronomy 24:16The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Numbers 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.

    Since as a nation of Israel, the children are to be put to death for their own sins and thus the fathers are excluded from the sins of the children, I would have to believe that the age of 20 was not to establish the age of accountability, but signifying the youngest age and up of the rebellious people that murmured and thus refused to enter the promised land. AND that offering at the tabernacle required for any one passing from the age of 20 on up was to commemorate the passing into the promised land by the grace of God... kind of symbolic of the offering of Christ for sinners of all ages for eternal life... by the grace of God.

    So I stand firm in believing that all christian parents should be free to share the gospel to even babes as it is not by the persuasion of a man's speech, but the Spirit's power since it is on the Father to reveal His Son to any one, including babes as Jesus has testified that this is true.

    Matthew 11:
    25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Although OneFaith's reference gives hope to a married couple where only one is a believer, that does not include children where both parents are unbelievers.

    1 Corinthians 7:
    12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? 17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

    Since Paul is signifying that he is speaking and not the Lord, regarding not to depart from an unbelieving spouse, as he seems to be declaring that if one spouse is a believer, then the other spouse is sanctified and the children are holy, but yet verses 16-17 raises the question for the believing spouse that by remaining married to the unbelieving spouse, maybe the believing spouse can save them that way.... depending on the faith you have been given by the Lord to believe that.

    But does that mean do not bother to share the gospel to the unbelieving spouse? No. When opportunity arises... especially after the unbelieving spouse does not want to hear it any more.. but of course, if the unbelieving spouse is going to talk negatively about it, that unbelieving spouse cannot expect the other to remain silent. Granted, they can have their say, but as long as they respect the believing spouse to have their say, otherwise, the believing spouse should be free to walk away from that "one sided discussion" just as the unbelieving does when they do not want to hear it. It just have to be understood to the unbeliever that if they do not want to talk about it any more, then that means they cannot talk about it at all, and expect the other not to contribute to that discussion whenever they feel like blurting something out. The believing souse can inquire before allowing the unbeieving spouse to continue on if they want to discuss it openly, but if not, then the unbelieving spouse should be equally respectful and stop talking about it... but do let the unbelieving spouse know that you are open to discussion whenever they want to talk about Him.

    I reckon the same can be said for children, to make sure they know the door is open for discussion or else how can any parent train a child in the way they ought to go. I still see nothing wrong with singing lullabyes to infants since it is on God to cause the increase... & Jesus testified that the Father is able to reveal His Son even unto babes... so believe Him and preach the gospel to them.

    Mark 10:
    13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    What can a child do but trust the Lord at His word that by believing in Him, they are saved?

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Here is another reason why MessageOfTheCross's reference cannot be what he is applying it to mean as establishing the age of accountability or the age of innocence.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

    So the reference about those under the age of 20 not knowing good or evil is just referring to the youngest age of the rebellious people that had murmured against the Lord because they did not want to enter the promised land. That is why an offering at the age of 20 or above is required at the tabernacle of the Lord in the nation of Israel was in remembrance of the event of how from the youngest age of 20, the rebellious did not enter the promised land, but by the grace of God, the generations following did.

    As it is, there is no age of accountability when children can be put to death for their own sins as this was applied when the nation of Israel was in their promised land and serving God as His people.

    Deuteronomy 24:16The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Don't forget... the firstborns in Egypt had died in the last plague visited upon them by God.

    Since Jesus told His disciples NOT to forbid the little children from coming to Him, then I plead with my brothers & sisters NOT to use the false age of accountability as a reason NOT to preach the gospel to the little children.

    Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    What can a child do but trust the Lord at His word that by believing in Him, they are saved? So please consider preaching the gospel to your little children today and as many that you are led by Him to call for God the Father is able to reveal His Son, even unto the babes.

    Matthew 11:
    25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Surely, Jesus did not teach otherwise so why should any believer? Jesus nor Paul had ever taught the idea of not preaching the gospel to little children or babies because they need to have human comprehension and education and intelligence to understand the gospel to make an informed choice.

    And yet we have scripture that says to preach the gospel to every creature.

    John 16:
    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    So please lean on Jesus Christ to preach the gospel to the little children so they can believe in Him & be saved and teach then by believing in Jesus Christ as their personal Good Shepherd, He will help them to understand His words as kept in the KJV to abide in Him to follow Him as His friends.

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by jb View Post
    Isaiah 53v6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

    The Scriptures plainly teach that we are NOT "born astray" BUT "GO astray"" i.e., the operation of free will! Ezek 18 (all)

    Every human (except the Lord Jesus) has gone astray by free choice, hence "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Rom 3v23

    The effect of Adam's sin is felt in the flesh (Rom 7v18) which every human receives from the parents, the soul and spirit which are made by God at conception are pure, so that a child is born spiritually aliove to God and pure in soul. Num 16v22, Eccl 12v7, Isaiah 57v16, 1Thess 5v23.

    The doctrine of "Original Sin" and "born in sin" theories, came into the church through Augustine, they were not believed by the early Church.

    You can find a bit of a study Here on it...
    jb,

    I'm sure you know that ANYTHING could be proven by taking verses here and there from the bible.

    First of all, the bible has to be considered as a Whole book. Not a bunch of verses.
    Second, it would be nice to know some theology along with bible study. It really helps a lot to study the things of God.
    For instance, would you know about the Trinity were it not for theology??

    If you say that man is born pure and saved, at what point does he become UNSAVED??

    Man is born UNSAVED. He must become saved.
    God doesn't like see saws...

    I checked your verses and they DO NOT mean anything in regards to what we're discussing.
    We could go over each one, if you like.

    They are:
    Mathew 19:14
    Romans 5:15
    Romans 5:13
    Romans 7:9

    Man certainly does reach an age of accountability. This is the age at which sin is understood and the person knows right from wrong, chooses God or the enemy and is aware of the choice.

    One is either FOR God or AGAINST God --- there is no middle ground. Jesus said there are two roads, not three.
    Mathew 7:13-14

    If a child is not FOR God, which he cannot be --- then by Jesus' own words, he is AGAINST God.
    §There is no third and neutral ground.

    This does not mean that if a child dies, he goes to hell. God is a JUST God and we can trust His mercy.


    Your theory of "going astray" only becomes valid AFTER one is born again. EVERYONE IS GONE ASTRAY BEFORE THAT.
    Isaiah is speaking about persons AFTER the age of accountability.

    Regarding the early Church and Augustine. I don't need to go to your link.
    I don't care for Augustine.
    I know about the early Church Christians and theologians. I agee with them.

    Original sin is being questioned by the very Catholic Church.
    Since it's a sin imputed to man,it is questionable that it could be correct.
    Augustine got different things wrong.
    I'm sorry he was so respected and still is by some.

    That does not change anything. I'm not referring to Augustine or origial sin.
    I'm referring to the theology of mainline Protestant denominations.
    Last edited by FranC; August 12th, 2017 at 08:13 AM.

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    I've been meaning to ask you about your kitty =]
    Good to hear

    And what you've heard is interesting too - so for the first seven days, was a male Israelite child treated like "uncircumcised" - cut off from the people?
    Hi PH

    I haven't forgtten you.

    I looked up your question regarding whether or not children were accepted into the Jewish society before circumcision and how they might have been treated, and did not find anything helpful.

    This is from page 227 of The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah:

    From the first days of its existence, a religious atmosphere surrounded the child of Jewish parents. Admitted in the number of God’s chosen people by the deeply significant rite of circumcision, when its name was first spoken in the accents of prayer,1132 it was henceforth separated unto God.

    Also, I tried to see if the book is online, and indeed it IS !!

    Here is the link to page 227. You could read the Whole book online. I don't recommend it, it's very long. About 800 or 900 pages. But anyway here's the link.

    Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    And here is the very first home page:

    Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    It's a great book for anyone who likes to read and learn.
    Nehemiah6 likes this.

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by Desertsrose View Post


    Hi Fran,

    I heard that too, but never looked into it until now.

    We begin with the words of Ayala Abrahamov, M.D., Senior Professor of Pediatrics at the Faculty of Medicine at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, in her article “Problems with Blood Clotting and Bleeding in Newborns”:
    “The system of blood clotting or coagulation depends on certain types of proteins, called platelets, which are produced by the liver. These materials, known by the Roman numerals I-XIII (1-13), work in sequence [together with various enzymes] until a stable clot called a fibrin is formed. In the first days after birth the liver is not yet developed enough to survive any surgical operations, which could cause massive bleeding and lead to the death of the newborn, whose body simply does not have the ability to stop the blood flow on its own. Physiologically, until the eighth day, the liver slowly develops, until on the eighth day itself, it is mature enough to fulfill its role to create the clots necessary to stop bleeding.”

    The article also says: whereas, after the eighth day, the level of clotting material – prothrombin – in the blood reaches its lifetime average of 100%. However, just before the eighth day, the amount of blood clotting material increases rapidly, until on the eighth day itself, it is 110% of the norm!

    How cool is that?!
    Pretty Kewl !!

    Can't remember if I thanked you for confirming..

    if not,

    THANKS !!

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    Here is another reason why MessageOfTheCross's reference cannot be what he is applying it to mean as establishing the age of accountability or the age of innocence.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

    So the reference about those under the age of 20 not knowing good or evil is just referring to the youngest age of the rebellious people that had murmured against the Lord because they did not want to enter the promised land. That is why an offering at the age of 20 or above is required at the tabernacle of the Lord in the nation of Israel was in remembrance of the event of how from the youngest age of 20, the rebellious did not enter the promised land, but by the grace of God, the generations following did.

    As it is, there is no age of accountability when children can be put to death for their own sins as this was applied when the nation of Israel was in their promised land and serving God as His people.

    Deuteronomy 24:16The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Don't forget... the firstborns in Egypt had died in the last plague visited upon them by God.

    Since Jesus told His disciples NOT to forbid the little children from coming to Him, then I plead with my brothers & sisters NOT to use the false age of accountability as a reason NOT to preach the gospel to the little children.

    Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    What can a child do but trust the Lord at His word that by believing in Him, they are saved? So please consider preaching the gospel to your little children today and as many that you are led by Him to call for God the Father is able to reveal His Son, even unto the babes.

    Matthew 11:
    25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Surely, Jesus did not teach otherwise so why should any believer? Jesus nor Paul had ever taught the idea of not preaching the gospel to little children or babies because they need to have human comprehension and education and intelligence to understand the gospel to make an informed choice.

    And yet we have scripture that says to preach the gospel to every creature.

    John 16:
    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    So please lean on Jesus Christ to preach the gospel to the little children so they can believe in Him & be saved and teach then by believing in Jesus Christ as their personal Good Shepherd, He will help them to understand His words as kept in the KJV to abide in Him to follow Him as His friends.
    Hi Enow,

    This thread is pretty gone, however, let me just say this:

    I can't read all you write.
    It's tooooo much!

    However, I do agree with you.
    I taught our faith and was taught by two different mainline denomonination churches that
    children DO HAVE an age of accountability.

    It makes common sense. But there is not a set age..you're right about that too.
    Today we believe the age is different for each child. One could understand at 10 (I've witnessed this) And one could not know even by the age of 20, for different reasons.

    We need salvation from Birth.
    We receive salvation when we ask God and know what we're doing.
    Before that, God, who is a just God will not hold any child responsible for not knowing what he is doing.

    You did a good job of picking out scripture !!

    We got into talking about WHEN a parent should start teaching God to children.
    As soon as possible!
    Definitely by the age of 3. I used to "pray" with my own kids when they were about 18 months old.
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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by jb View Post
    Trying to use this Scripture in an attempt to somehow prove Original Sin and born in sin theories is really lame! lol

    The Psalmist is here speaking in ahighly poetic vein—even the "wickedest" little child must wait for afew years before it knows the difference between right and wrong and begins deliberately to tell lies! (Isa. 7,15-16)—and is contrasting those, who seem to delight in evil from an early age, with those who on the contrary like Samuel, David, and John the Baptist, so far from going astray from the womb, were filled with the Holy Ghost and spake the words of God to all Israel.
    And what happens to sinners that were not filled with the Holy Ghost when they were born ????....and I point out that John the Baptist was the only one born in that way wherein Jesus's incarnated body was only conceived of the Holy Ghost and without sin since Jesus is God, BUT only 1 was born "good", because even John the Baptist needed Jesus Christ as his Saviour anyway.

    So was John the Baptist born in sin like every other sinner or not when in need of the Saviour? No one can point to John the Baptist going astray... I doubt any one can, but John knew his wicked state or else he would not have declared his need for the Messiah.

    Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

    So the Psalmist cannot be speaking in a highly poetic vein when pointing out their sinful state from the womb.

    Psalm 58:3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

    Yes... it takes several years before the baby can "speak" lies, but the wickedness of the baby was there since the womb. That is the truth in the scripture. Indeed, born in sin is the same as having been conceived & shapened in sin.

    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    I believe God knows whom would have received Him from those that would not, and even so for those in the womb in that He would reveal His Son to them to believe in Him to be saved even if the child was to be stillborn. We have this proof.

    Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Evidence of God foreknowing those before they were formed in the womb.

    Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

    So we go to those that are born ... and how God led His disciples where NOT TO GO and instead where to go to preach the gospelas this is why God is particular.

    Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

    This is the promise that those who seek shall find, including foreknowing those who would have sought Him & find from those that would not.

    Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

    That's evidence of God foreknowing who would receive Him from those that prefer their evil deeds since no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    So our believing in Him is a work of God as well as only the Father can reveal His Son to us, even to babes, so we can believe.

    Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
    And since Jesus instructed His disciples not to prenent the little children from coming to Him, no parent should use the age of accountability as an excuse not to preach the gospel to them... even newborns for God is able to save even them.

    Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    So you may disagree about the age of accountability and still believe there is one, but you have to agree by the scripture that parents should not use the age of accountability as an excuse NOT to preach the gospel to little children. If believing parents go to the trouble of water baptizing infants even which does not do anything at all, then they can go to the trouble of preaching the gospel to the infants & even sing lullabies where the Father may reveal His Son to the infants so that they may believe in Him to be saved. It doesn't hurt, now does it?
    Last edited by Enow; August 12th, 2017 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    And what happens to sinners that were not filled with the Holy Ghost when they were born ????....and I point out that John the Baptist was the only one born in that way wherein Jesus's incarnated body was only conceived of the Holy Ghost and without sin since Jesus is God, BUT only 1 was born "good", because even John the Baptist needed Jesus Christ as his Saviour anyway.

    So was John the Baptist born in sin like every other sinner or not when in need of the Saviour? No one can point to John the Baptist going astray... I doubt any one can, but John knew his wicked state or else he would not have declared his need for the Messiah.

    Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

    So the Psalmist cannot be speaking in a highly poetic vein when pointing out their sinful state from the womb.

    Psalm 58:3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

    Yes... it takes several years before the baby can "speak" lies, but the wickedness of the baby was there since the womb. That is the truth in the scripture. Indeed, born in sin is the same as having been conceived & shapened in sin.

    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    I believe God knows whom would have received Him from those that would not, and even so for those in the womb in that He would reveal His Son to them to believe in Him to be saved even if the child was to be stillborn. We have this proof.

    Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Evidence of God foreknowing those before they were formed in the womb.

    Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

    So we go to those that are born ... and how God led His disciples where NOT TO GO and instead where to go to preach the gospelas this is why God is particular.

    Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

    This is the promise that those who seek shall find, including foreknowing those who would have sought Him & find from those that would not.

    Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

    That's evidence of God foreknowing who would receive Him from those that prefer their evil deeds since no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    So our believing in Him is a work of God as well as only the Father can reveal His Son to us, even to babes, so we can believe.

    Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
    And since Jesus instructed His disciples not to prenent the little children from coming to Him, no parent should use the age of accountability as an excuse not to preach the gospel to them... even newborns for God is able to save even them.

    Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    So you may disagree about the age of accountability and still believe there is one, but you have to agree by the scripture that parents should not use the age of accountability as an excuse NOT to preach the gospel to little children. If believing parents go to the trouble of water baptizing infants even which does not do anything at all, then they can go to the trouble of preaching the gospel to the infants & even sing lullabies where the Father may reveal His Son to the infants so that they may believe in Him to be saved. It doesn't hurt, now does it?
    I agree.

    If parents wait till the age of accountability to teach their kids about God and to MAYBE pass on their faith, it is too late.
    Kids meet many atheists in school; these kids will have a big effect on them even IF THEY GET TAUGHT by their parents.
    Imagine if they don't...

    It seems to me that teaching our children about God is as important as feeding them and clothing them.

    Also, children have a deep rooted need for God. It's actually visible when a child believes in God. He's different, just like an adult would be. This is because the Holy Spirit is real. A child loves knowing that God loves him and likes to know where he comes from and where he will be going.

    Kids that know about God have a permanent center of gravity.



    My two cents...
    Enow and oldethennew like this.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    according to the Law given through Moses, why are males not circumcised until the 8th day?
    I have never read in the law why this was. Never found an explanation. Doesn't mean it's not there - I just never noted it.

    Science has discovered though that on the eighth day after a male child is born is when his body begins producing a certain clotting protein or agent. Think I have that right. So if a male baby is cut prior to that, he can't clot and form a scab properly and is in more danger of bleeding to death if cut.

    Of course, today we probably have artificial clotting agents so I have no idea if they wait to the 8th day any more...

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace View Post
    I have never read in the law why this was. Never found an explanation. Doesn't mean it's not there - I just never noted it.

    Science has discovered though that on the eighth day after a male child is born is when his body begins producing a certain clotting protein or agent. Think I have that right. So if a male baby is cut prior to that, he can't clot and form a scab properly and is in more danger of bleeding to death if cut.

    Of course, today we probably have artificial clotting agents so I have no idea if they wait to the 8th day any more...
    and, once again, if I'd read the whole thread before commenting, I could have just kept my big mouth shut, as someone else already covered this on this very page.

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    Default Re: There Is No Such Thing As the Age of Accountability

    Quote Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace View Post
    I have never read in the law why this was. Never found an explanation. Doesn't mean it's not there - I just never noted it.

    Science has discovered though that on the eighth day after a male child is born is when his body begins producing a certain clotting protein or agent. Think I have that right. So if a male baby is cut prior to that, he can't clot and form a scab properly and is in more danger of bleeding to death if cut.

    Of course, today we probably have artificial clotting agents so I have no idea if they wait to the 8th day any more...
    Simply because they could bleed to death. The blood does not start clotting in our systems until the eighth day. I asked a doctor a while back. It has to do with vitamin K production

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