I'm curious why so many threads.....

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M

Miri

Guest
#1
about once saved always saved or not etc.


I'm just genuinely curious why people would bring up this subject.

If a person is saved and then feel like they are still guilty or keep falling into
sinful ways. (Which by the way is all of us!) Wouldn't it be better to ask for
prayer, to encourage each other, to seek God with all your heart, to make sure
you are saved if you are not certain etc. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to
you.


And...if you are certain you are saved and know you are right before God,
then why would this subject matter bother you.

Honest I'm genuinely curious as to why this subject is brought up so much, it
seems a moot point. We can only speculate about ourselves and God is the only one
who knows the true heart of another person.


It seems to me there is a real need for us all to be certain and there is a real issue of
struggling with sin.

Maybe we can all disgard this OSAS subject matter and instead pray, edifying, encourage,
exhort each other to draw close to Jesus and walk with Him.

For the record I suppose my failings are pride, thinking I don't need anyone else's help and
that can extend to God as well, worry instead of casting cares on the Lord. Getting impatient,
moody at times (well I am a woman lol). Filling those gaps with things instead of God.

So maybe you could pray for me.

Anyone else feel free to add your failings (otherwise I will feel like I'm the only one. :D)
and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.

So what do you think - any suggestions.
 
May 11, 2014
936
39
0
#2
Some feel strongly about defending the eternal security of a believer, and like to share that hope with others.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
6,479
113
#3
Honest I'm genuinely curious as to why this subject is brought up so much, it
seems a moot point. We can only speculate about ourselves and God is the only one
who knows the true heart of another person.

Pretty simple. Both sides of the argument are concerned about false teachings. Both sides believe the other side is grossly misleading people, and engaging in a dangerous theology which could lead to the demise of others.

What I can say is, there is one sure fire way to find out which side is correct! But no one seems to be in a hurry to really find out the Truth. :)
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
3,468
113
#4
about once saved always saved or not etc.


I'm just genuinely curious why people would bring up this subject.

If a person is saved and then feel like they are still guilty or keep falling into
sinful ways. (Which by the way is all of us!) Wouldn't it be better to ask for
prayer, to encourage each other, to seek God with all your heart, to make sure
you are saved if you are not certain etc. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to
you.


And...if you are certain you are saved and know you are right before God,
then why would this subject matter bother you.

Honest I'm genuinely curious as to why this subject is brought up so much, it
seems a moot point. We can only speculate about ourselves and God is the only one
who knows the true heart of another person.


It seems to me there is a real need for us all to be certain and there is a real issue of
struggling with sin.

Maybe we can all disgard this OSAS subject matter and instead pray, edifying, encourage,
exhort each other to draw close to Jesus and walk with Him.

For the record I suppose my failings are pride, thinking I don't need anyone else's help and
that can extend to God as well, worry instead of casting cares on the Lord. Getting impatient,
moody at times (well I am a woman lol). Filling those gaps with things instead of God.

So maybe you could pray for me.

Anyone else feel free to add your failings (otherwise I will feel like I'm the only one. :D)
and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.

So what do you think - any suggestions.
No sure why you link OSAS Salvation with Sinning? ...

Do you think our salvation is dependent on our performance in life in regards to sin avoidance?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
3,468
113
#5
Oh and people keep on bringing OSAS up because they like the belief that once they accept God as their Saviour they can never fall away from the truth and do not have to persist in even belief.. It's a doctrine that affords them total assurence of entering into eternity with God no matter what they believe...

Of course others don't believe in OSAS for a minute and think it is a ear tickling teaching like WOF...
 
T

TheRealRalph

Guest
#6
about once saved always saved or not etc.


I'm just genuinely curious why people would bring up this subject.

If a person is saved and then feel like they are still guilty or keep falling into
sinful ways. (Which by the way is all of us!) Wouldn't it be better to ask for
prayer, to encourage each other, to seek God with all your heart, to make sure
you are saved if you are not certain etc. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to
you.


And...if you are certain you are saved and know you are right before God,
then why would this subject matter bother you.

Honest I'm genuinely curious as to why this subject is brought up so much, it
seems a moot point. We can only speculate about ourselves and God is the only one
who knows the true heart of another person.


It seems to me there is a real need for us all to be certain and there is a real issue of
struggling with sin.

Maybe we can all disgard this OSAS subject matter and instead pray, edifying, encourage,
exhort each other to draw close to Jesus and walk with Him.

For the record I suppose my failings are pride, thinking I don't need anyone else's help and
that can extend to God as well, worry instead of casting cares on the Lord. Getting impatient,
moody at times (well I am a woman lol). Filling those gaps with things instead of God.

So maybe you could pray for me.

Anyone else feel free to add your failings (otherwise I will feel like I'm the only one. :D)
and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.

So what do you think - any suggestions.
To know you were indeed once saved, suggests many things. I am reminded of the book of Luke.


And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#7
But it's all a moot point folks, either you are saved or not. That's between you and
God. People seem to bring sin into this subject that's why I raised it.

Can anyone else see the futility of this subject.

Its a pity that a useless subject takes up so much time and
on a Christian website. Read the first post to get this into context.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#8
sometimes there is the perception that people who argue against the security of our hope do so because they want to be able to 'point the finger and say "aha!"' -- to, for themselves, say 'this one is saved' or 'this one is not saved' by judging each other according to works etc.

but i like to think that, as brother Ouliphant said, they are concerned about false teaching, and that they primarily fear that without this threat of damnation, the redeemed will have no cause to do good & eschew evil, as is so often the accusation - and beyond that even, that there would somehow be an implicit encouragement to live wickedly, chasing after all kinds of lusts.

the other half of this argument, on their part, has the concern that believers will theologically '
replace' the work of Christ with their own works, honoring themselves instead of their Lord -- as is also so often the accusation.

overall there is a concern for righteousness, whether achieved or displayed by works, or imputed & gained by faith. despite the ever-growing horde of the strawman army, no one ever seems to either actively boast of their self-righteousness nor revel in debasing sin. one may wonder, then, why we remain focused on the legal details of which only God is judge, bickering with each other, when both sides of the fence are seeking to glorify our Saviour - by doing what pleases Him, and by praising Him for who He is and what He has done ((and is doing))?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
3,468
113
#9
But it's all a moot point folks, either you are saved or not. That's between you and
God. People seem to bring sin into this subject that's why I raised it.

Can anyone else see the futility of this subject.

Its a pity that a useless subject takes up so much time and
on a Christian website. Read the first post to get this into context.
Ok... But the critical thing is our Belief or Disbelief .. Not our sins.. They are covered the moment we believe.. Oh except for that one sin that Jesus declared never has forgivness.. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#10
Ok... But the critical thing is our Belief or Disbelief .. Not our sins.. They are covered the moment we believe..

i actually find it pretty funny when people claim that '
only your past sins were forgiven, not the future ones... so watch out!'
-- you know, here we are some 20 centuries later .. so when He laid down His life for you, literally all your sins were future! and since He was slain before the foundation of the world, all sin was future, at that time, if you must insist on seeing things in this temporal sense.


Oh except for that one sin that Jesus declared never has forgivness.. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit..
isn't this like saying "this water can satisfy every thirsty soul, with the one exception of the soul who refuses to drink" ?
:rolleyes:
 
M

Miri

Guest
#11
sometimes there is the perception that people who argue against the security of our hope do so because they want to be able to 'point the finger and say "aha!"' -- to, for themselves, say 'this one is saved' or 'this one is not saved' by judging each other according to works etc.

but i like to think that, as brother Ouliphant said, they are concerned about false teaching, and that they primarily fear that without this threat of damnation, the redeemed will have no cause to do good & eschew evil, as is so often the accusation - and beyond that even, that there would somehow be an implicit encouragement to live wickedly, chasing after all kinds of lusts.

the other half of this argument, on their part, has the concern that believers will theologically '
replace' the work of Christ with their own works, honoring themselves instead of their Lord -- as is also so often the accusation.

overall there is a concern for righteousness, whether achieved or displayed by works, or imputed & gained by faith. despite the ever-growing horde of the strawman army, no one ever seems to either actively boast of their self-righteousness nor revel in debasing sin. one may wonder, then, why we remain focused on the legal details of which only God is judge, bickering with each other, when both sides of the fence are seeking to glorify our Saviour - by doing what pleases Him, and by praising Him for who He is and what He has done ((and is doing))?

Good answer, ha ha but...as soon as someone points the fingure or gets critical, is
nasty etc. Then the "not once saved always saved people" are no longer saved because they
have sinned;

and the "always saved" people might not be because they are not displaying fruits
of the spirit. Lol.


Do you see where I am coming from, we can all argue this subject until the cows come
home, but He knows who are His sheep and His sheep know Him. The once saved always
saved or not subject, often doesn't give any thought or credibility of the work of the
Holy Spirit.

Debating this moot subject does not increase anyone's rightoueness either, that is
imputed to us via Jesus. If anything it tends to bring out the worst in people. I doubt
many posts on CC bring glory to God, maybe the testimonies do etc and others which
boast of what God has done for them.


Would we not be better (bearing in mind this is a Christian website) to actually help
each other, encourage each other, pray for each other to be people whom overcome.
Rather than cause each other to fall into bitterness with pointless subjects.

There are other pointless subjects as well, but I chose this as it concerns the sin
nature, which people with an awakened conscious are only too aware of.
Well Jesus is the answer to that, we all know that, which makes the OSAS even
more pointless. :D

Ps Post, I quoted your reply as I thought it was the best thought out and raised some
interesting points.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#12
Ps Post, I quoted your reply as I thought it was the best thought out and raised some
interesting points.
aw, thanks
all that '
thinking out' comes from me seeing those threads, thinking & praying about them, and deciding ((for the most part)) not to get involved. ha!


Would we not be better (bearing in mind this is a Christian website) to actually help
each other, encourage each other, pray for each other to be people whom overcome.
Rather than cause each other to fall into bitterness with pointless subjects.

amen yes! i think the takeaway ought to be that whether we are doing it out of fear of damnation or thanksgiving for our adoption, we all ought to be trying to love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly before God!

which, i guess, a number of people think engaging in long, probably fruitless arguments is somehow accomplishing . . ?
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#13
But it's all a moot point folks, either you are saved or not. That's between you and
God. People seem to bring sin into this subject that's why I raised it.

Can anyone else see the futility of this subject.

Its a pity that a useless subject takes up so much time and
on a Christian website. Read the first post to get this into context.
Hi Miri,

Yes there IS a point to it..... but they don't want you to know what that real point is.

You see, on the surface, OSAS (hypergrace, easy believeism, etc) have no tangible argument whatsoever. According to their own doctrine, once a person accepts Jesus, they're saved permanently, & nothing you do after that can change anything.

So that would mean all of us, regardless of our differences, are saved. Easy, right?

But..... they persist on declaring others that don't believe the way they do don't have Jesus. That's talking outta both sides of their mouth. That's hypocrisy, plain & simple.

Notice something else..... OSAS, hypergrace, easy believeism, & whatever else they come up with, NEVER argue amongst themselves about their doctrine.

NOT ONCE.

Why the double standard? Why don't they argue between themselves? They argue with everybody else!

The answer is black & white, literally. Good vs evil.

Spiritually, they are evil. And anyone righteous, baby or mature, is an enemy.

It's a smoke screen, a scam.

As long as you switch over to one of those beliefs, doesn't matter which, you will instantly be their friend.

Matthew 23
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

The Pharisees of Jesus' day didn't care what you believed, as long as you sided with them & paid your tithes.

Yes, shutting off the kingdom of Heaven from their proselytes. Falling away. Creating apostates.

Miri, you must admit, when folks of multiple doctrines band together in unity against ONE group, & ONE GROUP ONLY, it must be evil.

Some folks think I'm some religious nut crying conspiracy.

The thing is, we're discovering that most conspiracy nuts have been right all along.
;)

 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#14
I would suggest that this subject is debated because many want to assure themselves that they are saved. The matter really is an indicator of how one came to know Christ as Savior. Those who have experienced the John 16:7-11 reality are much better able to understand that it is God Who has saved them and not themselves.

We are warned that there are pretenders mixed in with the possessors. Wheat and tares grow alongside one another until the harvest.

Ec 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
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#15

Notice something else..... OSAS, hypergrace, easy believeism, & whatever else they come up with, NEVER argue amongst themselves about their doctrine.

NOT ONCE.

Why the double standard? Why don't they argue between themselves? They argue with everybody else!
Bro, with all due respect, what you said above is simply untrue. Many who are biblically preservation of the saints, what you call OSAS argue vehemently against the false teachings of believe-ism, easy-believe-ism, decisional salvation, hyper grace, FGT &c. One noted man of God, Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones argues against these false beliefs in many of his sermons.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#16
Bro, with all due respect, what you said above is simply untrue. Many who are biblically preservation of the saints, what you call OSAS argue vehemently against the false teachings of believe-ism, easy-believe-ism, decisional salvation, hyper grace, FGT &c. One noted man of God, Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones argues against these false beliefs in many of his sermons.
Maybe in the world, but not in the BDF.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#17
Maybe in the world, but not in the BDF.
Oh, it happens here. You're telling me you haven't witnessed those who go against the WoF and HG crowd and their errant theologies? Bro, I've seen it happen here often.
 

maverich

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2017
294
34
28
#18
Hi Miri,

Yes there IS a point to it..... but they don't want you to know what that real point is.

You see, on the surface, OSAS (hypergrace, easy believeism, etc) have no tangible argument whatsoever. According to their own doctrine, once a person accepts Jesus, they're saved permanently, & nothing you do after that can change anything.

So that would mean all of us, regardless of our differences, are saved. Easy, right?

But..... they persist on declaring others that don't believe the way they do don't have Jesus. That's talking outta both sides of their mouth. That's hypocrisy, plain & simple.

Notice something else..... OSAS, hypergrace, easy believeism, & whatever else they come up with, NEVER argue amongst themselves about their doctrine.

NOT ONCE.

Why the double standard? Why don't they argue between themselves? They argue with everybody else!

The answer is black & white, literally. Good vs evil.

Spiritually, they are evil. And anyone righteous, baby or mature, is an enemy.

It's a smoke screen, a scam.

As long as you switch over to one of those beliefs, doesn't matter which, you will instantly be their friend.

Matthew 23
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

The Pharisees of Jesus' day didn't care what you believed, as long as you sided with them & paid your tithes.

Yes, shutting off the kingdom of Heaven from their proselytes. Falling away. Creating apostates.

Miri, you must admit, when folks of multiple doctrines band together in unity against ONE group, & ONE GROUP ONLY, it must be evil.

Some folks think I'm some religious nut crying conspiracy.

The thing is, we're discovering that most conspiracy nuts have been right all along.
;)

absolutely right i have no tangible arguement, and that makes me even more secure, in my salvation, i keep saying read the bible

"You have seen and believed, Blessed(me) are those that haven't seen and believed. We walk by faith not by sight
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#19
about once saved always saved or not etc.


I'm just genuinely curious why people would bring up this subject.

If a person is saved and then feel like they are still guilty or keep falling into
sinful ways. (Which by the way is all of us!) Wouldn't it be better to ask for
prayer, to encourage each other, to seek God with all your heart, to make sure
you are saved if you are not certain etc. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to
you.


And...if you are certain you are saved and know you are right before God,
then why would this subject matter bother you.

Honest I'm genuinely curious as to why this subject is brought up so much, it
seems a moot point. We can only speculate about ourselves and God is the only one
who knows the true heart of another person.


It seems to me there is a real need for us all to be certain and there is a real issue of
struggling with sin.

Maybe we can all disgard this OSAS subject matter and instead pray, edifying, encourage,
exhort each other to draw close to Jesus and walk with Him.

For the record I suppose my failings are pride, thinking I don't need anyone else's help and
that can extend to God as well, worry instead of casting cares on the Lord. Getting impatient,
moody at times (well I am a woman lol). Filling those gaps with things instead of God.

So maybe you could pray for me.

Anyone else feel free to add your failings (otherwise I will feel like I'm the only one. :D)
and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.

So what do you think - any suggestions.
Yeah, well the perpetual threads on the topic get old, are old, and there is lot's of talking past one another as well.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#20
Oh, it happens here. You're telling me you haven't witnessed those who go against the WoF and HG crowd and their errant theologies? Bro, I've seen it happen here often.
Just Ariel, if I remember correctly.

And NONE of those turn into arguments.