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Thread: Preterism Versus Historicism

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    J7
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    Default Preterism Versus Historicism

    There seems to be a ton of confusion about what historicism is.
    Maybe this thread will clear it up.

    Historicism broadly speaking is opposed to futurism. Futurism views Daniel's 70 weeks as unfulfilled, historicism views them as fulfilled.

    Historicism is only tangentially related to Preterism, which views Revelation and all Prophecy as fulfilled.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    There seems to be a ton of confusion about what historicism is.
    Maybe this thread will clear it up.

    Historicism broadly speaking is opposed to futurism. Futurism views Daniel's 70 weeks as unfulfilled, historicism views them as fulfilled.

    Historicism is only tangentially related to Preterism, which views Revelation and all Prophecy as fulfilled.
    Why must some put others in a box with a name on it?
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    J7
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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    True. But I prefer a semi authentic label to a totally misleading one

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    True. But I prefer a semi authentic label to a totally misleading one
    But how do you put a label on someone you do not know or only read or hear a small portion of what they teach?
    I believe any label is misleading and should not be used.
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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Persuaded View Post
    Why must some put others in a box with a name on it?
    Because that's how things work. You will find throughout Scripture that God puts people into certain boxes. As long as we don't put God in a box, and also think outside the box, we should be fine.

    Getting back to Historicism, "The historicist School which sees the book of Revelation as largely predictive of actual events to occur throughout the history of Christianity from the time of John until the return of Jesus Christ....E.B. Elliott defines historicism as “that view which regards the prophecy [of Revelation] as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the church, and the world connected with it, from St. John’s time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfilment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon

    In other words everything in the book of Revelation has already been fulfilled or is being fulfilled. But that hardly matches the reality of human history. Nothing that is revealed in the 6th and 7th seals has already occurred, neither has the Antichrist every taken absolute control of this world as shown in Revelation 13. So Futurism is not only sound Bible interpretation, but meets the test of reality. Almost all the Protestant Reformers saw the Pope of their day as the Antichrist, but that is totally incorrect.
    Last edited by Nehemiah6; August 12th, 2017 at 02:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism



    a. The ‘preterist’ view
    This starts with the situation of the church in the first century and
    ends there. It sees the book as arising out of the situation of the first
    Christians and that is its outstanding merit. The Roman Empire
    dominates the scene. The Seer was wholly preoccupied with the
    church of his day.He wrote out of its situation and indeed has nothing
    more in mind than its situation. This view has the merit of
    making the book exceedingly meaningful for the people to whom it
    was written. And it has the demerit of making it meaningless for all
    subsequent readers (except for the information it gives about that
    early generation).
    It should perhaps be added that some variant of
    this view is adopted by most modern scholars.

    b. The ‘historicist’ view
    Those who see the book this way claim that it is an inspired forecast
    of the whole of human history. They see its symbols as setting out
    in broad outline the history of western Europe and as stretching
    right on until the second coming of Christ. This view does indeed

    make Revelation meaningful for this generation, at any rate in part.

    And it is a strengthening of faith to see the whole of history as under
    the control of God. But the early Christians could not have gotmuch
    out of a book whose concern was basically for later periods. For
    them most of the book on this view must have been an insoluble
    puzzle. Yet we should surely hold that those to whom it was written
    had or could have had a satisfying understanding of it. It is also
    curious that a book forecasting human history should largely ignore
    the world outside western Europe. Historicist views also labour
    under the serious disadvantage of failing to agree. If the main
    points of subsequent history are in fact foreshadowed, it should be
    possible to identify them with tolerable certainty, otherwise what is
    the point of it? But there are many historicist views and no real
    agreement.



    c. The ‘futurist’ view
    Some hold that, apart from the first few chapters, the book is exclusively

    concerned with happenings at the end of the age. They see the
    seven seals and all the rest as being concerned with the end of the
    world, and as prefiguring those events which will usher in the second
    coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This robs the book of all significance
    for the early Christians and, indeed, for all subsequent generations
    right up to the last. For all intermediate generations it is
    merely a forecast of what will happen in the last days. Until those
    days come it means little, except that God has an ultimate purpose.



    This was taken from a commentary on Revelation I am reading which I highly recommend by Leon Morris

    Brother Glen






















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    



    




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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Hmmm, interesting 71.

    You are right Persuaded.

    I am Vaguely Historicist...although Preterism and Futurism as belief systems are a bit more nailed down.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    Hmmm, interesting 71.

    You are right Persuaded.

    I am Vaguely Historicist...although Preterism and Futurism as belief systems are a bit more nailed down.
    That is true and I wouldn't even attempt to discuss them unless I'm been through them... They all have good points but none of them are complete... Scripture say to rightly divide the word of truth... There is truth in all these views but one view alone is not complete... I like the way that Morris explains it... If full preterism is true, as there is partial and full, then what is there for those Christians now?... If Futurism is true then what was there for those Christians in the early church facing untold persecution and death then?... I'm a blending of all and I lean heavily on the historic area which a lot seem to avoid... Then again that is them and this is me... Brother Glen

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    I guess I would go somewhere in between the boxes. I believe prophesy goes in cycles as kingdoms rise and fall in a pattern. Just as the OT gave us "types" of Christ through the lives of various men, the early church set in motion certain types of phenomena. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I look at it.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    Hmmm, interesting 71.

    You are right Persuaded.

    I am Vaguely Historicist...although Preterism and Futurism as belief systems are a bit more nailed down.
    Usually when one person puts another in a box and names that box, it is a way of condemning that person for his belief.
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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Persuaded View Post
    Usually when one person puts another in a box and names that box, it is a way of condemning that person for his belief.
    Well if God puts His children in the box labeled "saints" how in the world is that condemning them?

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Well if God puts His children in the box labeled "saints" how in the world is that condemning them?
    Come on man. You just want to disagree with me.
    God can do as he pleases.
    I was talking about how some people seem to be always looking for a way to condemn those who disagree with them

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Persuaded View Post
    Come on man. You just want to disagree with me.
    God can do as he pleases.
    I was talking about how some people seem to be always looking for a way to condemn those who disagree with them
    Some know that they would be in trouble is they said someone was stupid, or ignorant when the disagree with them so they just label them as preterest, historicist, or futurist.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian71 View Post


    a. The ‘preterist’ view
    This starts with the situation of the church in the first century and
    ends there. It sees the book as arising out of the situation of the first
    Christians and that is its outstanding merit. The Roman Empire
    dominates the scene. The Seer was wholly preoccupied with the
    church of his day.He wrote out of its situation and indeed has nothing
    more in mind than its situation. This view has the merit of
    making the book exceedingly meaningful for the people to whom it
    was written. And it has the demerit of making it meaningless for all
    subsequent readers (except for the information it gives about that
    early generation).
    It should perhaps be added that some variant of
    this view is adopted by most modern scholars.

    b. The ‘historicist’ view
    Those who see the book this way claim that it is an inspired forecast
    of the whole of human history. They see its symbols as setting out
    in broad outline the history of western Europe and as stretching
    right on until the second coming of Christ. This view does indeed

    make Revelation meaningful for this generation, at any rate in part.

    And it is a strengthening of faith to see the whole of history as under
    the control of God. But the early Christians could not have gotmuch
    out of a book whose concern was basically for later periods. For
    them most of the book on this view must have been an insoluble
    puzzle. Yet we should surely hold that those to whom it was written
    had or could have had a satisfying understanding of it. It is also
    curious that a book forecasting human history should largely ignore
    the world outside western Europe. Historicist views also labour
    under the serious disadvantage of failing to agree. If the main
    points of subsequent history are in fact foreshadowed, it should be
    possible to identify them with tolerable certainty, otherwise what is
    the point of it? But there are many historicist views and no real
    agreement.



    c. The ‘futurist’ view
    Some hold that, apart from the first few chapters, the book is exclusively

    concerned with happenings at the end of the age. They see the
    seven seals and all the rest as being concerned with the end of the
    world, and as prefiguring those events which will usher in the second
    coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This robs the book of all significance
    for the early Christians and, indeed, for all subsequent generations
    right up to the last. For all intermediate generations it is
    merely a forecast of what will happen in the last days. Until those
    days come it means little, except that God has an ultimate purpose.



    This was taken from a commentary on Revelation I am reading which I highly recommend by Leon Morris

    Brother Glen
    



    lol I am not any of these. I believe it reveals trends through history. Thus the four horsemen commenced walking in John's day and they continue walking today, and so on

    







    Last edited by valiant; August 12th, 2017 at 08:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    imho the four horseman existed before John's day... Brother Glen


    Zachariah 6:1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

    6:2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

    6:3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

    6:4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

    6:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.

    6:6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.

    6:7 And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

    6:8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Persuaded View Post
    Come on man. You just want to disagree with me.
    God can do as he pleases.
    I was talking about how some people seem to be always looking for a way to condemn those who disagree with them
    Well you keep insisting that this is condemnation, but it is not necessarily so. Christians have no choice except to recognize various groups of other Christians by their doctrines, so a "label" must be applied, whether it is neutral or pejorative. For evangelical Christians, Protestants are those who came out of the RCC for good reasons. For Catholics, Protestants are heretics.

    So it is with understanding Bible prophecy. Some claim that everything in Revelation was already fulfilled by 70 AD. That is absurd. Those are the Preterists.

    Others claim that everything in Revelation has been fulfilled (or is being fulfilled) during Church history. That is unrealistic. Those are the Historicists.

    Still others believe that while the first five seals of Revelation have already been opened, the 6th and 7th seal judgments are yet future. This matches Scripture as well as reality. These are the Futurists.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Hello Nehemiah6,

    Still others believe that while the first five seals of Revelation have already been opened, the 6th and 7th seal judgments are yet future. This matches Scripture as well as reality. These are the Futurists.


    Just for the record, though I am a futurist, I do not believe the above. I believe that the first seal, the rider on the white horse, is representing the antichrist. I also don't believe that the second seal rider on the red horse has yet been given power to take peace from the earth so that men kill each other. Also, since death and Hades are given power over a fourth of the earth at the 4th seal, which would result in approx. 1.7 billion fatalities within the first 3 1/2 years, I don't see how this could have possibly taken place either.

    I believe that Rev.4:1 is prophetic of the church being gathered, which would take place prior to the 1st seal being opened. I'm one of those who believes that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments together make up the entire wrath of God.

    I believe that what you have described above is referred to as the "pre-wrath tribulation," which is the belief that seals 1 thru 6 are not considered to belong to God's wrath, but begin after the announcement "the great day of their wrath as come and who can endure." The problem with that is that the words "has come" in verse is in the aorist, which is identifying God's wrath in its entirety. Therefore, the announcement includes the events of seals 1 thru 6 as also belonging to God's wrath. Regarding the seals, we also have to remember that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals and therefore is the One responsible for the resulting fatalities.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    TBH though Persuaded, although these labels often are used to demean and misrepresent people, I think they serve a purpose.
    I think I can say, without risking insulting anyone personally, that Preterism is a whack job belief set, and Futurism is pure hokum. that leaves historicism, in all its variants, in the right arena.

    If any other historicists want to discuss Revelation, which I'd like to learn about, please message me.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Well you keep insisting that this is condemnation, but it is not necessarily so. Christians have no choice except to recognize various groups of other Christians by their doctrines, so a "label" must be applied, whether it is neutral or pejorative. For evangelical Christians, Protestants are those who came out of the RCC for good reasons. For Catholics, Protestants are heretics.
    Heretics in the eyes of God per His words counts when a believer is in iniquity.

    So it is with understanding Bible prophecy.
    This would fall under "we prophesy in part and know in part", but hardly heresy, unless used to judge others in iniquity which would be an action not to do so in the eyes of the Lord & His words when involving understanding Revelation.

    Some claim that everything in Revelation was already fulfilled by 70 AD. That is absurd. Those are the Preterists.
    It is absurd, but obviously hid to them that fail to see that there was no time on earth where a number system was imposed on all the living in order to buy & sell to survive in that world order, and so it is yet to be.

    Others claim that everything in Revelation has been fulfilled (or is being fulfilled) during Church history. That is unrealistic. Those are the Historicists.
    Again, there was no number system imposed on all the living to buy & sell in order to survive in that world order where the church was persecuted to death by it for not having it & the dire consequence for having that mark of the beast.

    Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Still others believe that while the first five seals of Revelation have already been opened, the 6th and 7th seal judgments are yet future. This matches Scripture as well as reality. These are the Futurists.
    I am one to believe that in order for any of those judgments to be given, all of the seven seals had to be broken for that to be open. When there is seven seals on one thing, they all have to be broken for all those judgement to be given out.

    In Revelation 8th chapter, it testify after the seventh seal that one third of the earth is burned up.

    In Revelation 14th chapter, it started out hinting of the pre trib rapture having been taken place by describing from out of those living on the earth that were raptured who made up that special choir that follows Jesus around wherever He goes.

    Then it addresses the 3 angels where the one is giving the everlasting gospel everywhere in the world so that no one has no excuse of not knowing the gospel. Then the second angel heralds the fall of Babylon which I believe is when the third of the earth will be burned up, taking Babylon with it which I believe to be USA and the entire Western Hemisphere. A solar flare that burns one third side of the earth? I know not. But the 3rd angel gives warning after that calamity of the consequence for any one taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in that coming new world order will be cast into the lake if fire.. no matter what.

    That sets the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth that those saints of the Church at Philadelphia will miss out on as they will be raptured to escape that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth whereas those who do not depart from iniquity as stated of the church at Thyatira, will be cast int the bed of the great tribulation.

    God is judging His House first at the pre trib rapture event and those not found abiding in Him & His words as kept in the KJV by His grace & by His help, will become castaways to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House. That is the whole point of God addressing the 7 churches to prepare themselves or else.

    But only God can help believers to see and heed the call to abide in Him as His disciples and lean on Him to be willing to leave as well before the Bridegroom comes, because in Revelation 18th chapter at the fall of Babylon, is when the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the Bridegroom had come & gone, and those saints left behind will be forced to be made to rest from their laboring in unbelief as their works that deny Him, will follow them to the dust.... but because that foundation remains.. that seal of His is still on them... He still abides and as their Good Shepherd, He will get those lost sheep of His and bring them Home, wiping the tears from their eyes to get past their loss of that first inheritance so they can serve the King of kings with joy and gladness in the milleniel reign of Christ.

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    Default Re: Preterism Versus Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Well you keep insisting that this is condemnation, but it is not necessarily so. Christians have no choice except to recognize various groups of other Christians by their doctrines, so a "label" must be applied, whether it is neutral or pejorative. For evangelical Christians, Protestants are those who came out of the RCC for good reasons. For Catholics, Protestants are heretics.

    So it is with understanding Bible prophecy. Some claim that everything in Revelation was already fulfilled by 70 AD. That is absurd. Those are the Preterists.

    Others claim that everything in Revelation has been fulfilled (or is being fulfilled) during Church history. That is unrealistic. Those are the Historicists.

    Still others believe that while the first five seals of Revelation have already been opened, the 6th and 7th seal judgments are yet future. This matches Scripture as well as reality. These are the Futurists.
    Well, I disagree.
    Why not just present the truth, supported by Scripture.
    While you may find it helpful to use labels, some just use it as a way to belittle and condemn others.
    What box would you put me in?

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