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Thread: Eating Swine (hogs)?

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Well Jackson, if it is unclean for you, don't eat it. But don't try to get Christians to abandon their liberty in Christ. And study the passage I posted regarding what God has said regarding ALL MEATS.
    i Eat pork, just because there is question If there a verse. It was in OT Eat pork is prohibit, not now
    posthuman and Grace777x70 like this.

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by EarsToHear View Post
    Where in Scripture does it’s now okay to eat swine?

    If you can, please document your answer.
    It's probably OK if it's kosher.
    M & M's melt in your mouth and not in your hands.

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    I am a vegetarian, going on 45 years now. I've tried the veggie bacon, soy bits, etc. I would rather just eat carrots than that stuff.

    And of course, if you are going to keep the pork law, then you have to keep the 612 other commandments, and then you are going to have to be righteous through your works. That makes you NOT a Christian, or follower of Jesus Christ, who came to be our righteousness by his work on the cross.

    "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption," 1 Cor. 1:30

    "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—" Phil. 3:8b-9

    PS. I am NOT under the law. Not going back before the flood. My body doesn't like to digest meat, or most fats, so it is just better for me to avoid it. Certainly, I do not force my food preferences on anyone, even my family. Although, hubby has learned to like some vegetarian casseroles I make.
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by EarsToHear View Post
    Where in Scripture does it’s now okay to eat swine?

    If you can, please document your answer.
    While I can give a reason for the hope in me, shouldn't you first document where the scriptures say that it wasn't okay to eat swine since you wouldn't be asking where in the scriptures it is now okay to eat swine.

    If one isn't aware of the principle regarding eating the flesh of animals of flesh which eat flesh, then they probably aren't aware of that they are living by the grace of God anyway.


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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Morning Star does make a great bacon strip substitute for whole hog bacon. I prefer it to all the fat on the real bacon.

    The truth of the matter is that if we ate the original diet as given in the garden of Eden we would all be healthier. Eating animal product does raise ones cholesterol which is hurtful to our bodies and helps cause heart problems.

    Fruits, nuts, grains and vegies - herbs were the original diet and after the flood God allowed clean meats as there was no plant life/gardens available right after the flood.

    We learned to love meat but it wasn't in the very original diet way before the Jews hit the scene.

    I know the arguments all come from people thinking that if you eat a certain way it's a better ticket into heaven but not so. Then again, it is a healthier diet for a better body temple. Moderation is key no matter what food you eat. My belief is the original diet is the best one. But we love our meat.

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?



    These are really not bad. Girlfriend needs to redo her nails though... They make great crunchy BLT's love them. In fact need to buy some and get a big tomato...I can taste that sandwich now... yummm..
    posthuman likes this.

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    I'm eating more and more veg and at least 5 fruits a day, with very small portions of meat until I get the lentil and bean recipes sorted out. I do like crispy regular bacon so that's a tough 'un.

    I even bought a blender the other day to make rice milk and other schtuff.

    Oster La Vista baby....

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    I'm eating more and more veg and at least 5 fruits a day, with very small portions of meat until I get the lentil and bean recipes sorted out. I do like crispy regular bacon so that's a tough 'un.

    I even bought a blender the other day to make rice milk and other schtuff.

    Oster La Vista baby....
    Looks like your planning to beat Methuselah in the longevity department!
    FranC likes this.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    GraceNPeace

    I'm not willing to argue accepted Christian theology.
    I don't have to reread Mathew 5:17.
    Read all of chapter 5.
    Concentrate on 5:17-20
    Also Mathew 5:27-32
    Also Mathew 5:48

    The Covenant God made with Moses is still binding.
    I keep asking this and don't get an answer:
    Does every Covenant abolish the previous one?
    I'll answer it
    NO, it does not. It BUILDS on it.
    Think back to the Adamic and all the way up to now...
    WHICH ONE has been abolished?
    NONE.

    The New Covenant is better, it doesn't mean the other ones are no longer in force.

    The difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant is HOW the New Covenant is kept by us.


    It IS sometimes argued whether or not the New Covenant has the conditon of believing.
    It IS A NON-CONDITIONAL covenant, however, we must believe to be in it, so some may ask if believing then becomes a condition. And IF we believe, then we are to believe in all of it.

    Also, we are placed under a LAW, we cannot be placed under a non-conditional covenant.
    You yourself have stated that there are no conditions, or clauses.

    We are still to obey the Law.
    God did not change.
    Again you are wrong!
    Paul VERY EXPLICITLY explains that the two covenants are not in force together:

    21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.Rom 3:21-26

    And, when in vs 31 Paul talks about establishing the law he IS NOT talking about reimposing it!
    That would make a mockery of vs 28:
    "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." Rom 3:28

    Furthermore the entire Jerusalem Council was about obedience to the law - Acts chapter 15.
    This is the summary of the decisions made:

    23 They wrote this letter by them:
    The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
    To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
    Greetings.
    24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f] —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
    Farewell. Acts 15:23-29

    There is no affirmation - nothing at all - that the law of Moses is still binding!
    They would have to have confirmed this if it were still true considering that this was the entire issue at hand!
    If ANY part of the law of Moses was still binding then they would have had to specify that this was the case but it does not happen!

    The whole of the Epistle to the Galatians is also a refutation that the law is still binding on New Covenant believers.
    Paul calls the Galatians that have slid back into observance of the law foolish and bewitched, "
    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?" Gal 3:1

    He then further goads them with this comment: " I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!" Gal 5:12
    Paul is suggesting that these Judaizers should emasculate themselves - no doubt so that their physical state would then resemble their spiritual state - impotent!
    The issue was not at all about circumcision - it was all about obeying the law (circumcision being the symbol that one was indeed a law-abiding Jew).

    Paul explicitly explains how the law brings a curse - condemnation is the only outcome from the law (Gal 3:10-13). He then goes on to describe it a tutor (Gal 3:19-25). This is as much as the law can achieve.

    How does Paul describe believers?
    In this way:
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29

    What makes us believers, Christians, sons of God?
    Faith and faith alone!
    No reference to the law of Moses.
    In the New Covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) - how could there be?
    There is no place for the very things that distinguish Jew from Greek - the law of Moses and everything that goes with it!

    Yes, we are heirs according to the promise, we are Abraham's seed, but the law of Moses (all of it, including the ten commandments has no place in this)!
    Paul's entire argument in Galatians is that one does not need to become a Jew in order to be a Christian!
    As mentioned earlier, one cannot accept a covenant (contract) and then decide which parts one wishes to honour!

    Paul makes it abundantly clear that the New Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are mutually exclusive...

    So here is the question for you:
    2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are you so foolish?
    Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
    4Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:2-4

    PennEd and Grace777x70 like this.

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Again you are wrong!
    Paul VERY EXPLICITLY explains that the two covenants are not in force together:

    21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.Rom 3:21-26

    And, when in vs 31 Paul talks about establishing the law he IS NOT talking about reimposing it!
    That would make a mockery of vs 28:
    "[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.[/FONT][FONT="]" Rom 3:28

    Furthermore the entire Jerusalem Council was about obedience to the law - Acts chapter 15.
    This is the summary of the decisions made:

    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]23 They wrote this letter by them:[/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="]The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,[/FONT]
    [FONT="]To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Greetings.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f] —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Farewell. Acts 15:23-29

    There is no affirmation - nothing at all - that the law of Moses is still binding!
    They would have to have confirmed this if it were still true considering that this was the entire issue at hand!
    If ANY part of the law of Moses was still binding then they would have had to specify that this was the case but it does not happen!

    The whole of the Epistle to the Galatians is also a refutation that the law is still binding on New Covenant believers.
    Paul calls the Galatians that have slid back into observance of the law foolish and bewitched, "
    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?" Gal 3:1

    He then further goads them with this comment: " I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!" Gal 5:12
    Paul is suggesting that these Judaizers should emasculate themselves - no doubt so that their physical state would then resemble their spiritual state - impotent!
    The issue was not at all about circumcision - it was all about obeying the law (circumcision being the symbol that one was indeed a law-abiding Jew).

    Paul explicitly explains how the law brings a curse - condemnation is the only outcome from the law (Gal 3:10-13). He then goes on to describe it a tutor (Gal 3:19-25). This is as much as the law can achieve.

    How does Paul describe believers?
    In this way:
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29

    What makes us believers, Christians, sons of God?
    Faith and faith alone!
    No reference to the law of Moses.
    In the New Covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) - how could there be?
    There is no place for the very things that distinguish Jew from Greek - the law of Moses and everything that goes with it!

    Yes, we are heirs according to the promise, we are Abraham's seed, but the law of Moses (all of it, including the ten commandments has no place in this)!
    Paul's entire argument in Galatians is that one does not need to become a Jew in order to be a Christian!
    As mentioned earlier, one cannot accept a covenant (contract) and then decide which parts one wishes to honour!

    Paul makes it abundantly clear that the New Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are mutually exclusive...

    So here is the question for you:
    2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are you so foolish?
    Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
    4Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:2-4[/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    Hi GnP

    The above is too much for today, Sunday.
    I will answer your questions and leave the rest for Tomorrow.
    Surprised you didn't quote Hebrews, but we'll take what you posted.

    2. By faith. Then came "works".

    3. We will never be perfect. We can only TRY.

    Manana.
    Happy Sonday.
    Walk till you Run
    And don't look back
    For HERE...I AM

    U2 Unforgettable Fire

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    Senior Member BillG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post

    What? You want me to use "false bacon" on re-feed day?....blasphemy...lol


    I thought soy bacon came from the breed soy pigs
    Lord

    Help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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    Senior Member tanakh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    This is just another legalistic thread. I love Ham Bacon Pork Chops and Sausages. If I wanted to convert to Judaism I would go for it 100% not opt for the buffet version.This is my reply to all who bang on about keeping the Torah, Sabbath, Third Temple Building and the Messianic movement in general.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Again you are wrong!
    Paul VERY EXPLICITLY explains that the two covenants are not in force together:

    21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.Rom 3:21-26

    And, when in vs 31 Paul talks about establishing the law he IS NOT talking about reimposing it!
    That would make a mockery of vs 28:
    "[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.[/FONT][FONT="]" Rom 3:28

    Furthermore the entire Jerusalem Council was about obedience to the law - Acts chapter 15.
    This is the summary of the decisions made:

    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]23 They wrote this letter by them:[/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="]The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,[/FONT]
    [FONT="]To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Greetings.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f] —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]Farewell. Acts 15:23-29

    There is no affirmation - nothing at all - that the law of Moses is still binding!
    They would have to have confirmed this if it were still true considering that this was the entire issue at hand!
    If ANY part of the law of Moses was still binding then they would have had to specify that this was the case but it does not happen!

    The whole of the Epistle to the Galatians is also a refutation that the law is still binding on New Covenant believers.
    Paul calls the Galatians that have slid back into observance of the law foolish and bewitched, "
    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?" Gal 3:1

    He then further goads them with this comment: " I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!" Gal 5:12
    Paul is suggesting that these Judaizers should emasculate themselves - no doubt so that their physical state would then resemble their spiritual state - impotent!
    The issue was not at all about circumcision - it was all about obeying the law (circumcision being the symbol that one was indeed a law-abiding Jew).

    Paul explicitly explains how the law brings a curse - condemnation is the only outcome from the law (Gal 3:10-13). He then goes on to describe it a tutor (Gal 3:19-25). This is as much as the law can achieve.

    How does Paul describe believers?
    In this way:
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29

    What makes us believers, Christians, sons of God?
    Faith and faith alone!
    No reference to the law of Moses.
    In the New Covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) - how could there be?
    There is no place for the very things that distinguish Jew from Greek - the law of Moses and everything that goes with it!

    Yes, we are heirs according to the promise, we are Abraham's seed, but the law of Moses (all of it, including the ten commandments has no place in this)!
    Paul's entire argument in Galatians is that one does not need to become a Jew in order to be a Christian!
    As mentioned earlier, one cannot accept a covenant (contract) and then decide which parts one wishes to honour!

    Paul makes it abundantly clear that the New Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are mutually exclusive...

    So here is the question for you:
    2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are you so foolish?
    Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
    4Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:2-4[/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    I'm not sure how to answer this, it's so long...
    Will use a list...


    1. How am I wrong? It's easy to say, but you didn't show me HOW any one covenant abolished the previos one.
    Know why? Because none did. Every covenant embellished the previous one. It added to it or made it better in some way or made it more complete. None got abolished.

    Even the Mosaic Covenant did not get abolished. Mathew 5:17. Jesus said He did not come to ABOLISH the Law but to fulfill it. To fulfill means to make more complete. He said that not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law.
    Mathew 5:18

    Romans 3:21-26 is correct but what does it mean? It means that instead of receiving God's righteousness through following THE LAW, we now will receive it be believing in Christ, which is a better METHOD.

    We are no longer UNDER THE LAW, but the Law has not been abolished. The 10 commandments must still be observed.
    Do you think they shouldn't?? We are NOW justified by Jesus and not by our own works as in the Mosaic Covenant.

    So, the Mosaic or O.C. is not abolished, it is changed to be better. If it were abolished we would not have to follow the 10 commandments.


    2. Regardig Romans 3:31, you totally misunderstand it.
    Paul is saying that faith DOES NOT nullify the Law.

    Romans 3:31 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    31 Do we then nullify [a]the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


    What Paul is saying in verse 28 is exactly what he's trying to teach.
    We are NO LONGER JUSTIFIED BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8) BUT BY FAITH.

    But FAITH does not nullify WORKS. We are still required to obey the 10 commandments.



    3. Acts 15:23-29

    All good. No need for cicumcision. That was when justification was by Law.
    Secondly, circumcision falls under the Ceremonial Law. THAT WAS abolished.
    No need to become Jewish first and then Christian.

    You keep repeating that the Law of Moses is not binding. I won't mention this again: Are you saying the 10 commandments are no longer binding? I hope not.


    4. Galatians. Another poster loves to bring up the book of Galatians but I find it impossible to speak to him.

    Galatians is speaking about Jews who were saved but weren't sure of what they were doing because they were so steeped in the Law since that's how they had been raised from childhood. They were thinking about leaving FAITH and going back to THE LAW. IOW, they were thinking that maybe being justified by Law was correct, and NOT justified by FAITH. THIS IS ALL PAUL WAS TRYING TO TEACH... that NOW we have faith to justify us and not THE LAW as in the O.C.


    5. The Law was only a tutor. Correct, agreed. It brought a curse. Correct,agreed.
    This is what is referred to when we say "there is now no condemnation" in those of the N.C. who believe in Christ...

    Because the N.C. HAS NO CURSE attached to it as the O.C. did.


    6. Oh my gosh! I just got to the part where you say that the 10 commandments have NO PART in the New Covenant!
    YOU are the one that posted Romans 3:31 !!!

    PLEASE read it again and understand the difference between being justified BY THE LAW, and being justified by FAITH.




    The two covenants are not mutually exclude. The new is better than the old or it woud not have had to be necessary.
    However it DOES NOT abolish the Law.

    JESUS HIMSELF said so and I believe Jesus.


    BTW, Circumcision was not the symbol that one was a Law-abiding Jew.

    Circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant.
    One had to be circumcised in that covenant in order to be a Hebrew and to be set apart from gentiles.
    Walk till you Run
    And don't look back
    For HERE...I AM

    U2 Unforgettable Fire

  14. #54
    Senior Member AllenW's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    I'll take a baloney sandwich on dark rye with some mustard please.
    A slice of pickle on the side and some mineral water.
    FranC and BillG like this.
    FOLLOW JESUS!

  15. #55
    Senior Member FranC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by AllenW View Post
    I'll take a baloney sandwich on dark rye with some mustard please.
    A slice of pickle on the side and some mineral water.
    You seem to think this thread has been derailed???
    OK
    I'll have what you're having except with beer.
    Huckleberry and BillG like this.
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    And don't look back
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    I'm not sure how to answer this, it's so long...
    Will use a list...


    1. How am I wrong? It's easy to say, but you didn't show me HOW any one covenant abolished the previos one.
    Know why? Because none did. Every covenant embellished the previous one. It added to it or made it better in some way or made it more complete. None got abolished.

    Even the Mosaic Covenant did not get abolished. Mathew 5:17. Jesus said He did not come to ABOLISH the Law but to fulfill it. To fulfill means to make more complete. He said that not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law.
    Mathew 5:18

    Romans 3:21-26 is correct but what does it mean? It means that instead of receiving God's righteousness through following THE LAW, we now will receive it be believing in Christ, which is a better METHOD.

    We are no longer UNDER THE LAW, but the Law has not been abolished. The 10 commandments must still be observed.
    Do you think they shouldn't?? We are NOW justified by Jesus and not by our own works as in the Mosaic Covenant.

    So, the Mosaic or O.C. is not abolished, it is changed to be better. If it were abolished we would not have to follow the 10 commandments.


    2. Regardig Romans 3:31, you totally misunderstand it.
    Paul is saying that faith DOES NOT nullify the Law.

    Romans 3:31 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    31 Do we then nullify [a]the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


    What Paul is saying in verse 28 is exactly what he's trying to teach.
    We are NO LONGER JUSTIFIED BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8) BUT BY FAITH.

    But FAITH does not nullify WORKS. We are still required to obey the 10 commandments.



    3. Acts 15:23-29

    All good. No need for cicumcision. That was when justification was by Law.
    Secondly, circumcision falls under the Ceremonial Law. THAT WAS abolished.
    No need to become Jewish first and then Christian.

    You keep repeating that the Law of Moses is not binding. I won't mention this again: Are you saying the 10 commandments are no longer binding? I hope not.


    4. Galatians. Another poster loves to bring up the book of Galatians but I find it impossible to speak to him.

    Galatians is speaking about Jews who were saved but weren't sure of what they were doing because they were so steeped in the Law since that's how they had been raised from childhood. They were thinking about leaving FAITH and going back to THE LAW. IOW, they were thinking that maybe being justified by Law was correct, and NOT justified by FAITH. THIS IS ALL PAUL WAS TRYING TO TEACH... that NOW we have faith to justify us and not THE LAW as in the O.C.


    5. The Law was only a tutor. Correct, agreed. It brought a curse. Correct,agreed.
    This is what is referred to when we say "there is now no condemnation" in those of the N.C. who believe in Christ...

    Because the N.C. HAS NO CURSE attached to it as the O.C. did.


    6. Oh my gosh! I just got to the part where you say that the 10 commandments have NO PART in the New Covenant!
    YOU are the one that posted Romans 3:31 !!!

    PLEASE read it again and understand the difference between being justified BY THE LAW, and being justified by FAITH.




    The two covenants are not mutually exclude. The new is better than the old or it woud not have had to be necessary.
    However it DOES NOT abolish the Law.

    JESUS HIMSELF said so and I believe Jesus.


    BTW, Circumcision was not the symbol that one was a Law-abiding Jew.

    Circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant.
    One had to be circumcised in that covenant in order to be a Hebrew and to be set apart from gentiles.
    Fran, are you a Jew?
    If you are not then the law of Moses was never yours to begin with.
    You were never part of this covenant - ever!

    You are correct that the sign of the Abrahamic covenant was circumcision.
    However the whole point of the argument is that the Mosaic covenant was only between those of the circumcision (Israelites) and God.
    And, in fact by the NT times to be circumcised according to the law of Moses (and there are plenty of rules governing who, how, what etc of circumcision) meant that one was a law-abiding Jew. Nobody, who was not circumcised was expected to keep the law according to the Mosaic covenant. The reason Paul, and others, could refer to circumcision as a placeholder for being a law-abiding Jew was because the two were inseparable.

    Now, if your interpretation of Matt 5:18 is correct then ALL the law of the Mosaic Covenant is still in operation. Yet, in other posts you claim (a totally false distinction by the way) that parts of the law have in fact been done away with!!?!!!
    You cannot claim that one part of the law is still operational (Ten commandments) but the rest is in fact done away with.
    Can you not see that you have hopelessly contradicted yourself?
    The reason I emphasise that a covenant is contract is that it is just that!
    I have explained that you were never a party to the Mosaic covenant in the first place.
    I have also explained very unambiguously that one cannot unilaterally revoke bits and pieces of a contract in the way that you claim.
    The Ten commandments are the prologue, or introduction to the law of Moses - the rest of the law is the details of the legislation required to actually uphold those commandments. They cannot be separated.

    When you say that the Ten commandments are still in force then I assume that means that you observe the Sabbath. And I mean all of the tenets of the Sabbath that are detailed in the law (again one cannot observe the Sabbath without knowing the details laid out in the rest of the law). This is NOT substituting Sunday for the Sabbath. It does not mean worshipping - the Sabbath is all about rest. Go and read all the restrictions about activities on the Sabbath - without that knowledge one is NOT observing the Sabbath.

    the same principle holds for every other commandment of the ten - one cannot know how to fully obey those commandments without the rest of the law to tell you.

    But New covenant believers are NOT subject to the law of the Mosaic covenant.
    Neither Jewish believers nor Gentile believers!
    Why?
    Because Jesus Christ fulfilled the demands of the law on our behalf!
    Matt 5:18 is correct on all points.
    Jesus states that nothing changes until all is fulfilled - and it has now been fulfilled!
    Jesus Christ went to the cross as a vicarious sacrifice for sin having been fully obedient to the law of the Mosaic covenant (an event unique in the history of the law of the Mosaic covenant).
    In doing so He fulfilled the demands of obedience of the New covenant (which were obedience to the law).

    If what is above is untrue then there is no justification by faith in Jesus Christ because the death that He died was meaningless. Furthermore, there is not, and never was, justification through the law, and so we are all dead in our sins.
    Thank God, literally, that what Jesus Christ achieved on the cross was efficacious, and that the demands of the law have been satisfied.

    Does this mean that, as Christians, we now live in a moral vacuum?
    God forbid!
    The difference is that our moral compass is no longer the law of the law of Moses (for a Jew) or any other codified system of law for those who do not come from a Jewish background.
    Instead we are called to a much higher ethic, an ethic that Paul admits, "Against such there is no law." Gal 5:23.
    Instead of just looking to avoid penalty (this is how the law operates - it punishes those who transgress) we are called to actively exhibit these qualities, "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." Gal 5:22-23.

    This is not gooey or mushy stuff.
    To achieve this level of ethic and morality is a much tougher ask than merely obeying a law (avoiding trouble). There is no minimum standard here - if there was the fruit of the Spirit could be legislated. Instead Paul can only say, "Against such there is no law." Gal 5:23.

    And so, yes, the Mosaic covenant and the New covenant are mutually exclusive!
    Jesus Christ fulfilled the righteous demands of the Mosaic covenant in order to institute the New covenant.
    No human being was a direct party to the New covenant (inasmuch as Jesus Christ took on human form He was always still God) but we are offered an opportunity to partake in the fruits of this covenant, but the offer is purely by grace through faith!
    The Mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant between God and Israel.
    The New covenant, instituted by Christ's fulfillment of the righteous demands of that conditional covenant, is an unconditional covenant, not limited by ethnicity or any other discriminator. It is offered by grace through faith for our participation...
    Grace777x70 likes this.

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    As we study God’s Word, it’ important to keep the following verse in mind


    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


    Some people point to Acts 10, which they think says it’s now okay to eat pork. However, Acts 10 is about people, not about food.

    God is using this as an analogy. God will not allow Peter to touch these wild creatures. God did not allow Peter to eat any part of this filth, for God is using these animals to teach Peter something entirely different.


    The word common also means unclean. Where the previous uses of the word "unclean" were in reference to evil spirits, here it is in reference to the ceremonial uncleanness of the Levitical law. Every one of these animals and fowl was listed as unfit from the mouth of God Himself.


    The next place people quote when they try to justify eating scavengers is 1 Timothy 4:3.

    1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

    The most important part of this verse is the very part that most Christians, pastors included, skip right over. That part is, "which God hath created to be received..." First let's fix the fact that with thanksgiving, all those things that are stated in God's Word that are able to be received, can be eaten by those that believe and know the truth.

    Do you know those things that are written in God's health laws that are good to be eaten, from those things that are not to be eaten?


    If you do not know those health laws, it is no wonder that you are poor in health. God did not intend for you to eat garbage cans, and vacuum sweepers. That is what He created certain animals for, to be the garbage cans and vacuum sweepers of the earth. They are the ones that can hold, store and live of the putrefied things on the earth. Your body was not created to do so.


    The truth is in God's Word. Preachers are teaching that we can partake of any and everything that we want to, and they say this their documentation for saying such a thing. They teach that as long as you give thanks for what you eat, you can eat anything.

    However, if that is what you derive from that, you have a problem, you have the hot iron of deception and doctrines of devils that have seared your mind. You are just not paying attention to what God's Word has to say.


    God's Word doesn't say you may partake of any meat that there is.


    Quite the contrary, it says "WHICH GOD HATH CREATED TO BE RECEIVED..."

    This means that there is a condition applied to what is being said. What conditions then is all the meats that God has said that He created as food as stated in God's Word, those are the ones that we are to eat with thanksgiving.


    God also created many creatures that are not for consumption, and he listed them in his health laws. The warning is by God that you can't eat those without suffering the consequences when one shows up in poor health.

    Each animal has its own purpose, some are for food while others are not.
    The hourglass of time has been tipped, and it’s later than you may think.
    HalleluYAH - praise ye the LORD!

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    Senior Member Issachar92's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    "For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)"
    Mk 7:19

    Mark was written later than Leviticus, so it is more actual.

    Jesus is a higher authority than Moses, so it is more authoritative.
    Not this again... READ THE CONTEXT. Christians twisting the Bible to no end what is wrong with you. Jesus and His disciples are being confronted about EATING WITH UNWASHED HANDS by the pharisees, it was a tradition of theirs. You think the Messiah would advice the Jews to break the Torah that He came to fulfill and teach people about? You got the wrong one buddy.
    Acts 10 is about Peter associating with the gentiles not about eating food......
    All things are lawful to me is about meat sacrificed to idols not about smoking or drinking.


    I've pointed this out in the past but dont know why I bother, yall are incapable of reading the context and even after its provided yall still continue abusing them verses and telling me im wrong. Blind, or deceitful on purpose? I let the reader decide, hopefully there is someone else reading this who isnt too blinded by the bible pundits to see the actual context of these verses.
    Anytime i login its like ya gotta press the emergency button and type out a wall of text to save the few who havent been trapped in this yet. See how all the ones quoting things outta context get all the likes and this post will get none? Yup.

    Always check out the entire chapter when you are quoted something, you will be surprised at how often you are being deceived. Them fellas aint got no mercy.
    As for eating pork, do so as you please, but dont try to twist Jesus' words into teaching disobedience to the Torah while here on earth. Jesus is the Messiah.

  19. #59
    Senior Member FranC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Fran, are you a Jew?
    If you are not then the law of Moses was never yours to begin with.
    You were never part of this covenant - ever!

    GnP,

    How to continue speaking with you when you said this in your long post no. 49:

    Yes, we are heirs according to the promise, we are Abraham's seed, but the law of Moses (all of it, including the ten commandments has no place in this)!

    Am I a Jew?
    Kind of. Jesus was a Jew. If I'm a follower of Jesus then in some mysterious way I AM a Jew.
    I feel Jews are my brothers since we serve the same God. They have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah, but maybe some day they will.

    So, YES, I firmly believe that the decalogue is for ALL OF US. Jew and gentile alike. Not only are the 10 commandments for believers, they are also for NON-believers. Where do you think the natural law comes from?

    Since every covenant does not abolish the previous one, I am under all the covenants.
    Need proof_ The Edenic and Adamic covenants.
    Are you not a part of those?
    Are you a human being?
    Did God make you?
    Then you ARE a part of every covenant up until the last one.



    You are correct that the sign of the Abrahamic covenant was circumcision.
    However the whole point of the argument is that the Mosaic covenant was only between those of the circumcision (Israelites) and God.
    And, in fact by the NT times to be circumcised according to the law of Moses (and there are plenty of rules governing who, how, what etc of circumcision) meant that one was a law-abiding Jew. Nobody, who was not circumcised was expected to keep the law according to the Mosaic covenant. The reason Paul, and others, could refer to circumcision as a placeholder for being a law-abiding Jew was because the two were inseparable.

    The Law according to the Mosaic Covenant is the Law of the 10 Commandments. Of course if you believe we are not under THAT Law, all conversation becomes useles..

    Did I mention the three different types of Law?
    WE ARE STILL under the Moral Law.
    Is God a moral being?
    Is God a Loving being?
    God cannot be separted from Love or Morality or justice. GOD IS LOVE. GOD IS MORALITY. GOD IS JUSTICE.
    If you're not following the 10 commandments, you're not following Jesus.
    John 14:15




    Now, if your interpretation of Matt 5:18 is correct then ALL the law of the Mosaic Covenant is still in operation. Yet, in other posts you claim (a totally false distinction by the way) that parts of the law have in fact been done away with!!?!!!
    You cannot claim that one part of the law is still operational (Ten commandments) but the rest is in fact done away with.
    Can you not see that you have hopelessly contradicted yourself?

    I haven't contradicted myself. I'm not here to teach like some people are. I'm here to share.
    The Civil Law is abolished.
    The Ceremonial Law is abolished.
    The MORAL LAW IS STILL IN EFFECT.

    You're going to have to find out about this on your own.
    Don't take my word for it.
    But I'm sure I'm right about this.



    The reason I emphasise that a covenant is contract is that it is just that!
    I have explained that you were never a party to the Mosaic covenant in the first place.
    I have also explained very unambiguously that one cannot unilaterally revoke bits and pieces of a contract in the way that you claim.

    First of all a Covenant is NOT a Contract.
    Dont' you know the difference?
    If you can say that, you diminish what a Covenant is.

    Second, I'm not revoking bits and pcs of a Covenant. I would be the last person to do that, believe me.
    Please find out about the three different types of Law in the Old Testament.
    It'll help you greatly - really, not being facetious.




    The Ten commandments are the prologue, or introduction to the law of Moses - the rest of the law is the details of the legislation required to actually uphold those commandments. They cannot be separated.

    When you say that the Ten commandments are still in force then I assume that means that you observe the Sabbath. And I mean all of the tenets of the Sabbath that are detailed in the law (again one cannot observe the Sabbath without knowing the details laid out in the rest of the law). This is NOT substituting Sunday for the Sabbath. It does not mean worshipping - the Sabbath is all about rest. Go and read all the restrictions about activities on the Sabbath - without that knowledge one is NOT observing the Sabbath.

    yes. I know about the Sabbat and all the rules that go along with it.
    I sometimes wonder is we shouldn't be keeping the Sabbath, but this is a different discussion.
    So, do YOU keep the commandments? Oh. I forgot, you don't think you have to.
    So, do you take the name of the Lord in vain?
    Do you steal?
    Do you kill?
    Do you Honor your parents?
    Do you covet other people's good?

    Why not??






    the same principle holds for every other commandment of the ten - one cannot know how to fully obey those commandments without the rest of the law to tell you.

    I'm not sure I know what you mean by the above.
    I think you man that many more rules were made up about stealing, for instance.
    The rules, the consequences...




    But New covenant believers are NOT subject to the law of the Mosaic covenant.
    Neither Jewish believers nor Gentile believers!
    Why?
    Because Jesus Christ fulfilled the demands of the law on our behalf!
    Matt 5:18 is correct on all points.
    Jesus states that nothing changes until all is fulfilled - and it has now been fulfilled!


    Whoa!
    What does fulfilled mean?
    Maybe it doesn't mean what YOU think it means!
    Did Jesus make moral law easier to obey or more difficult to obey?
    What do you say?




    Jesus Christ went to the cross as a vicarious sacrifice for sin having been fully obedient to the law of the Mosaic covenant (an event unique in the history of the law of the Mosaic covenant).
    In doing so He fulfilled the demands of obedience of the New covenant (which were obedience to the law).

    Agreed.



    If what is above is untrue then there is no justification by faith in Jesus Christ because the death that He died was meaningless. Furthermore, there is not, and never was, justification through the law, and so we are all dead in our sins.
    Thank God, literally, that what Jesus Christ achieved on the cross was efficacious, and that the demands of the law have been satisfied.

    You believe in the Penal or Legal View of the sacrifice of Jesus.
    I believe in the Spiritual or Tsadaqa view of the sacrifice.
    No matter. Both are able to save though the understanding is different.
    Jesus sacrifice WAS efficacious.

    As to justification through the Law.
    What does Justification mean?
    Doesn't it mean Right With God?
    Was NO ONE in the Old Testament Right With God?
    Why did Jesus have to die anyway?
    What CHANGED after His Death?
    Did everyone before Jesus go to hell?

    You do kind of mix up the Moral Law with the New Covenant with the Sacrifice of our Lord.
    I see here a smorgesbord of ideas. (not that they are all wrong, just mixed up)




    Does this mean that, as Christians, we now live in a moral vacuum?
    God forbid!
    The difference is that our moral compass is no longer the law of the law of Moses (for a Jew) or any other codified system of law for those who do not come from a Jewish background.
    Instead we are called to a much higher ethic, an ethic that Paul admits, "[FONT="]Against such there is no law.[/FONT]" Gal 5:23.
    Instead of just looking to avoid penalty (this is how the law operates - it punishes those who transgress) we are called to actively exhibit these qualities, "[FONT="]22 [/FONT][FONT="]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]23 [/FONT][FONT="]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]" Gal 5:22-23.

    This is not gooey or mushy stuff.
    To achieve this level of ethic and morality is a much tougher ask than merely obeying a law (avoiding trouble). There is no minimum standard here - if there was the fruit of the Spirit could be legislated. Instead Paul can only say, "[FONT="]Against such there is no law.[/FONT]" Gal 5:23.

    I agree that we have a much higher standard -- so you actually answered my question to you regarding whether Jesus made the Law easier or more difficult. I agree with all of the above.




    And so, yes, the Mosaic covenant and the New covenant are mutually exclusive!
    Jesus Christ fulfilled the righteous demands of the Mosaic covenant in order to institute the New covenant.
    No human being was a direct party to the New covenant (inasmuch as Jesus Christ took on human form He was always still God) but we are offered an opportunity to partake in the fruits of this covenant, but the offer is purely by grace through faith!


    I agree. Except for the idea that the new abolishes the old.
    The New makes the Old POSSIBLE.
    Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law. It's not ME saying it.
    Do you know about the three different types of Law?
    This might be the Whole problem...




    The Mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant between God and Israel.
    The New covenant, instituted by Christ's fulfillment of the righteous demands of that conditional covenant, is an unconditional covenant, not limited by ethnicity or any other discriminator. It is offered by grace through faith for our participation...
    Could not agree more.
    The condition of the Mosaic Covenant was obedience to the Law.
    IF the people kept the commandments, God would them them a treasured possession. They would have blessings Beyond any other nation.

    Exodus 34:6-7
    God promises to be gracious and merciful and He promises to forgive iniquity and sin.

    Does this sount like Mt. Calvary? No. It comes from Mt. Sinai.
    Such sweet words spoken by God.

    They come BEFORE Exodus 34:28 and NOT from the book of Romans.
    The message of Moses and the message of Christ are ONE HARMONIOUS message.

    The curses, BTW, are found in Leviticus 26.3-13 and Deuteronomy 28:1-14
    The blessings are found in Leviticus 26:14-46 and Deuteronomy 28:15-68
    Walk till you Run
    And don't look back
    For HERE...I AM

    U2 Unforgettable Fire

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    Default Re: Eating Swine (hogs)?

    Not much better things to "pig out" on than this!


    Hebrews 13:5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

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