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Thread: The Surest Signs of...

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by pottersclay View Post
    Thanks for the reply and the rep Blain. I was watching a movie the other nite and a man made a comment in the movie and said "the world is full of men who would lay down their life for their cause".

    I thought to my self how many would lay down their life for the cause of others? That's when the scripture "pick up your cross and follow me " took on a whole new meaning.
    Mostly, we won't even lay down our life of pride for a man when he speaks unkindly to us or reviles us. We won't lay down our "right" to be treated well by him. We won't lay down our "right" to have him apologize.
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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace View Post
    Mostly, we won't even lay down our life of pride for a man when he speaks unkindly to us or reviles us. We won't lay down our "right" to be treated well by him. We won't lay down our "right" to have him apologize.
    So true, the natural man (in God's eyes) has no love. At best we favor one thing over another. Our emotional love if you look at it closely is very selfish. As the scriptures point out "the heart is continually wicked who can know it". True love is from above and a gift from God.
    I think that is what we all lack in one way or another. May the Lord have patience with us lol.
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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Is Trump a regeneration of Nixon?

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by pottersclay View Post
    So true, the natural man (in God's eyes) has no love. At best we favor one thing over another. Our emotional love if you look at it closely is very selfish. As the scriptures point out "the heart is continually wicked who can know it". True love is from above and a gift from God.
    I think that is what we all lack in one way or another. May the Lord have patience with us lol.
    Yes, may He have patience with us.
    Because what do we do when we finally see our lack of true love? We try harder to produce it instead of believing that if we have need/lack, we need only ask!
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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    There was absolutely no nit picking. A quote from a bygone preacher was presented. It appeared to be biblical but it really was not. So the bottom line is what does the Bible say about proofs of regeneration? Why don't you tell us rather that try to find fault with another's post?
    Get real! First thing you did was nitpick, and you haven't stopped yet. Worse yet, you're nitpicking Johnathan Edwards. Even a clue who he was?

    Yeah, for you this is all about contention. You and your teachings above all else. Excuse me while I put you on ignore. Here's a saying I created even before meeting you that works as if it were written just for you.

    "When your point is to prove you know all and those who disagree know nothing, you've proven you have nothing worth learning."
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    This is a hard one to explain.

    We have people who are trying to work at and emulate God and His Good Attributes. But they are not the ones who attain to these attributes.

    Then we have people that finally understand/understood that they are not sovereign. They are not the ones who GIVE these attributes nor attain them.

    These Good Attributes are given by God.

    Natural man (we) want to attain by their own will and their own might and their own wisdom. Mostly because their minds are blinded and they don't know that there is a better way.

    Even when we do understand and do know this better Way we still find ourselves falling back into our own "natural" way of trying to deserve the gift. Pride... Pride in our "wisdom". Pride in our "strength" and "perseverance".

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Open request to those who join in: If you happened to be one of the people who just wanted to think about it and talk, please add your comment, and PM me. I would have loved this to be worth conversing about, so I will read, if you'd do me that favor.

    As it stands now, it's just another place to argue, so I will unsubscribe to it, unless anyone has something edifying to add. Thanks.
    BTW, guess what. I can't unsubscribe to my own post. lol

    But since I've seen signs that others are interested in discussing, rather than arguing, I'm glad I can't unsubscribe.
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    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamahDesjardin View Post
    Why can't we have a good conversation about it still? Can't we explore this together and see where it leads? I based my initial research on what the Bible says about 1) God's qualities rejected by man, and 2) proof of regeneration. That's all I did. It was no more complex nor insidious than that. I didn't set out to try to disagree with you. I did a Bible study to form my own thoughts. How is that wrong?

    You have three of God's qualities that were obstacles for you. Very interesting! I would not have come up with those three myself. I can definitely see why the quote would ring true for you based on those three things.
    Sorry, missed your first post all together yesterday. (Scrolling up, scrolling down, gets confusing for me. ) You're right, you did. Would have worked better had I actually seen it, so my bad.

    But, what Bible studying did you do? (Real question, not a put down.) One of the hardest things for me to do, (now that I've given up mongo books as Bible aids, to use e-sword instead), is figure out keywords to do word studies in the Bible. I would go to A.W. Pink for a study on God's attributes. What did you go to? What keywords work for you, because that sounds cool. And, I've got nothing on how to study regeneration other than to actually find that word (or the verb form of that word), in a concordance. I'm really, really asking you how you did a study on it, so I can learn too.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yonah View Post
    what it means to me is we need not go about looking for signs of a regenerate heart, one who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit will posses what is in those scriptures in measure.
    So I'm supposed to get what you mean by pulling out a verse, and if I don't, that's your "sign" I don't have the "indwelling?"
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace View Post
    Oh...I read the meme in a slightly different way I think...

    Don't know if I can explain but I'm going to try.

    We can both love and hate an attribute of God. By that I mean, we love mercy when God applies it to us. When we must extend it to anyone else, it becomes odious to us. THEY don't deserve it because of how they treated us. THEY need to apologize first. We'll do it later but we're gonna make them squirm first and be real sorry.

    So the way I read the meme was that when we begin to display true and unfeigned mercy out of gratitude for the mercy He has shown us, when He brings us to that, then we are TRULY loving that attribute of God and we're loving it for all men, not just ourself.
    Really? Would have never come up with that one.

    Cool! I wonder if that's how God used Edwards to reach so many.
    Blain likes this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    From Bible Reason site - I found to be very informative.

    Take a moment to look at Ezekiel 11:19.

    We see the regenerative work of God in this chapter. Notice that God is not teaching works. Notice that God is not saying, “you have to obey to be saved.” He’s teaching regeneration. He says, “I will remove their heart of stone.” It’s not something He is trying to do. It’s not something He is working on. They will no longer have a heart of stone because God clearly says, “I will remove their heart of stone.” God is going to give the believer a new heart.
    What does God go on to say? He says, “then they will be careful to follow my decrees.” There are two unbiblical views on salvation. One of them is that you have to obey to be saved. You have to keep on working for your salvation. God says, “I am going to put a new spirit in them.” You don’t have to work for it. God says He is going to give you a new heart to obey.


    Another unbiblical stance is that the grace of God found in Christ is so amazing you can sin all you want. Maybe they won’t say it with their mouth, but that is what the lives of many professing Christians say. They live like the world and they think they are Christian. It’s not true. If you are living in sin you are not a Christian. Ezekiel 11 reminds us that God will remove their heart of stone.


    God says, “they will follow My decrees.” God has made that man a new creation and now he will follow God. To sum it up. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. We are saved by Christ. We can’t work for our salvation. It is a free gift that you don’t deserve. If you had to work for your salvation it would no longer be a gift, but something done out of debt. We don’t obey because obeying saves us. We obey because through faith in Christ we have been supernaturally changed by God. God has put a new spirit in us to follow Him.


    5. Ezekiel 11:19-20 “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.”
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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by pottersclay View Post
    Imo the greatest attribute and most misunderstood of God is his love. The stoning of Steven shows us a glimpse of a totally regenerated heart. For Steven to say to the Lord put no charge against these men was far above any human understanding. The natural man would ask for vengeance or Devine intervention. To the natural man Steven was spineless for not fighting back defending himself.
    Christ himself ask the Lord to forgive them as he hung on the cross. The Greek language would suggest that he repeatedly said this plea not just once. Forgiveness out of Love is one of the rarest attribute demonstrated. Mostly because forgiveness is given out of obedience.
    Whoa! Good one!
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    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyTrinityGirl View Post
    Is Trump a regeneration of Nixon?
    .

    That's to funny

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Miri View Post
    For the most part, the natural man doesn't believe in God. Those "natural men"
    that do have a perverse distorted view of God.

    i.e. Buddha, allah or even "Christians" in name only who believe God exists but that's
    about it.

    The natrual man might recognice some of the attributes, love for example, they know
    what love is. Justice, all people want justice. But even that love and justice is from a
    selfish perspective. One man's justice is another man's unfairness.

    Dare I say that even born again Christians can have a distorted view of the attitrubtes
    of God. The truth comes with growth and maturity along the Christian walk.

    So yes, blessed is a person who both fully "knows" and fully "understands" the attributes
    of God. For only a born again Christian can ever come to fully know and understand them.

    Even when we don't understand (and let's face it we all have why questions), the
    Godly person can at least say, ok I don't understand but I trust the one who is wisdom itself.
    Hubby and I got to talking last night. He said his biggest worry is God can't love him. And he said that moment in time when he figure out exactly how much God does love him came sometime when he was coming out from all that happened around his heart attack... and beyond. He had a crystal clear moment when he knew God truly loves him and is keeping him. He was then just worried that even that was just in response to surviving it.

    But I reminded him of another moment when he had that same crystal clear moment. He was working on a heating system 20 feet above a candle factor on a ladder, and fell. It takes a really long time to fall in our minds -- not so long in seconds, but our brains have plenty of time to process an abundance of things, and that was another time God told him that he was doing this to him so he'd get some understanding that God loves him. On the floor below him were wooden crates full of candles. He popped out his right shoulder and knee, and also separated his ribs.

    He had to take six weeks to recover, but he spent four weeks, (along with making the mistake of telling his then-wife how to clean properly lol), reading the Bible, when he did have that time, that's just about what he learned in the Bible. (The following two weeks he worked as the dispatcher, because his then-wife really didn't want him supervising constantly, so called his boss. A side-note on the fallacy of telling your spouse how to clean. lol)

    So I told him God's main lesson for him throughout his life was that God loved him. And that God's main lesson to me is trust him/God. He said something I hadn't considered before. He said love and trust are the same thing.

    So, yup. Got to agree with you. And I feel a bit better, because truthfully that wrathful side of God just scares me. I'm not sure I've risen to the heights of loving God for his wrathful side yet. I've grown to accept it, but don't seem quite up to wanting a big hug from him because of it yet.
    Miri likes this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by pottersclay View Post
    So true, the natural man (in God's eyes) has no love. At best we favor one thing over another. Our emotional love if you look at it closely is very selfish. As the scriptures point out "the heart is continually wicked who can know it". True love is from above and a gift from God.
    I think that is what we all lack in one way or another. May the Lord have patience with us lol.
    I wonder what it is to be married without being a child of God. Marriage is one of those times when we have to fight the natural urge to be selfish because the spouse is so much an extension of ourselves, as well as not-me. Fairly straight forward how to do that as God's kids, but I see my brother willing to lay down his life for this wife, but not the last one. And he is not a Christian.

    (No real answer to that one, I suspect. Just thinking... sorta out loud. lol)
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    This is a hard one to explain.

    We have people who are trying to work at and emulate God and His Good Attributes. But they are not the ones who attain to these attributes.

    Then we have people that finally understand/understood that they are not sovereign. They are not the ones who GIVE these attributes nor attain them.

    These Good Attributes are given by God.

    Natural man (we) want to attain by their own will and their own might and their own wisdom. Mostly because their minds are blinded and they don't know that there is a better way.

    Even when we do understand and do know this better Way we still find ourselves falling back into our own "natural" way of trying to deserve the gift. Pride... Pride in our "wisdom". Pride in our "strength" and "perseverance".
    Yup, we certainly still have our natural man crowding us.
    Grandpa and Miri like this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by JesusLives View Post
    From Bible Reason site - I found to be very informative.

    Take a moment to look at Ezekiel 11:19.

    We see the regenerative work of God in this chapter. Notice that God is not teaching works. Notice that God is not saying, “you have to obey to be saved.” He’s teaching regeneration. He says, “I will remove their heart of stone.” It’s not something He is trying to do. It’s not something He is working on. They will no longer have a heart of stone because God clearly says, “I will remove their heart of stone.” God is going to give the believer a new heart.
    What does God go on to say? He says, “then they will be careful to follow my decrees.” There are two unbiblical views on salvation. One of them is that you have to obey to be saved. You have to keep on working for your salvation. God says, “I am going to put a new spirit in them.” You don’t have to work for it. God says He is going to give you a new heart to obey.


    Another unbiblical stance is that the grace of God found in Christ is so amazing you can sin all you want. Maybe they won’t say it with their mouth, but that is what the lives of many professing Christians say. They live like the world and they think they are Christian. It’s not true. If you are living in sin you are not a Christian. Ezekiel 11 reminds us that God will remove their heart of stone.


    God says, “they will follow My decrees.” God has made that man a new creation and now he will follow God. To sum it up. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. We are saved by Christ. We can’t work for our salvation. It is a free gift that you don’t deserve. If you had to work for your salvation it would no longer be a gift, but something done out of debt. We don’t obey because obeying saves us. We obey because through faith in Christ we have been supernaturally changed by God. God has put a new spirit in us to follow Him.


    5. Ezekiel 11:19-20 “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.”
    Sanctification is God supernaturally changing us! Even the we-wanna is God planting that in us.
    Grandpa and Stunnedbygrace like this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Hubby and I got to talking last night. He said his biggest worry is God can't love him. And he said that moment in time when he figure out exactly how much God does love him came sometime when he was coming out from all that happened around his heart attack... and beyond. He had a crystal clear moment when he knew God truly loves him and is keeping him. He was then just worried that even that was just in response to surviving it.

    But I reminded him of another moment when he had that same crystal clear moment. He was working on a heating system 20 feet above a candle factor on a ladder, and fell. It takes a really long time to fall in our minds -- not so long in seconds, but our brains have plenty of time to process an abundance of things, and that was another time God told him that he was doing this to him so he'd get some understanding that God loves him. On the floor below him were wooden crates full of candles. He popped out his right shoulder and knee, and also separated his ribs.

    He had to take six weeks to recover, but he spent four weeks, (along with making the mistake of telling his then-wife how to clean properly lol), reading the Bible, when he did have that time, that's just about what he learned in the Bible. (The following two weeks he worked as the dispatcher, because his then-wife really didn't want him supervising constantly, so called his boss. A side-note on the fallacy of telling your spouse how to clean. lol)

    So I told him God's main lesson for him throughout his life was that God loved him. And that God's main lesson to me is trust him/God. He said something I hadn't considered before. He said love and trust are the same thing.

    So, yup. Got to agree with you. And I feel a bit better, because truthfully that wrathful side of God just scares me. I'm not sure I've risen to the heights of loving God for his wrathful side yet. I've grown to accept it, but don't seem quite up to wanting a big hug from him because of it yet.

    I think most struggle with the concept of God's love, we tend to get our example from
    the way our parents loved us. The problem is that parental love isn't perfect, it's hard
    to really and fully grasp the concept of the perfect love of God and retain that concept
    no matter what.
    Depleted likes this.
    He is God and
    we are not.

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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    But, what Bible studying did you do?
    I first tried to identify what the natural mind rejects about God. So I did a search for "natural mind rejects." Those exact words appear in 1 Corinthians 2. The interesting thing about that chapter, at least for me, was that Paul didn't say Jews and Greeks reject the idea of a sovereign God. He said the Jews want a sign and the Greeks want fancy philosophy. They were searching for God, but they were blind because they refused to see power in a cross. Paul called crucifixion a stumbling block that hindered even those who were deist.

    Then I tweaked the keywords to look for the same thing that may have been phrased differently. "Fleshy mind" will take you to Romans 8 and Colossians 2. Romans 8 fits in with the theme of rejection, so I read the chapter to see what the fleshly mind was rejecting. "Flesh reveal" brings up Matthew 16.

    It's not an exhaustive method to find every reason why people reject God. Some people are indeed simply rebellious. Others fancy themselves able to judge God's moral character (in regards to wrath).

    But I took the Edwards quote to mean sensible, responsible people who could not comprehend certain things in the natural mind. Some things about God cannot at all be surmised in human thinking even when we want to believe. 1 Corinthians 2, Romans 8, and other Bible passages describe this phenomenon.

    So I guess it's a question of what Edwards meant by natural man. Did he mean rebellious unbelievers who were looking for excuses to stay in sin? Or did he mean the actual inability to understand spirit?
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    Senior Member pottersclay's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Surest Signs of...

    In the gospel of John we read over and over again about the one that Jesus loved. Such a bold statement John was making about himself you would of thought the Holy Spirit would omit it.
    But it goes on record as truth. In the same way can we or do we say the same thing. I'm the one the Lord loves, Jesus loves me.
    God's love is not earned by merit, nor by appearance, nor by us loving him, in fact this is our stumbling block why does he love us. I suppose you could put theology in motion and say it's his will to love us or he can't deny himself but could anyone really say why?
    This world has conditioned us to set conditions in order to be liked let alone loved.
    Jesus proved that love conquers all things . Agape is such a mystery to all of us that we deny it's existence yet only with the spirit can we fathom it's reality and by the gift and Grace of God share it with others.
    It's not by might not by power but by my spirit says the Lord. For God is love.

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