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Thread: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    It was an issue long before Martin Luther came along; he just happened to have his face and name put to the cause.
    if that is true than why is there 0 writings by the early church fathers than mention sola scriptura, sola graita, sola fide, preservation of the saints, total depravity, double predestination, the Presbyterian polity, personal interpretation of scripture, a symbolic or low view of the sacraments, a literalist view of the entirety of scripture and so on; in fact I think some of these things were outright condemned by the church fathers most of them didn't appear in any theological writings until Peter Waldo came around in the 12th century so Id like to know who exactly you are referring to that had an opinion similar to Luther during antiquity. Peter Waldo, John Wycliffe, and Jan Hus are the only pre reformation protestants that I can think of off hand but other people that may have influenced the reformation in that regard such as Arius and Nestorius have views contrary to modern Protestantism so your statement doesn't add up

  2. #22
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    basic literacy levels and the availability of scripture in a commonly spoken language in Europe probably has something to do with why the reformation happened where it did, when it did, and not sooner, on so large and organized a scale.
    Basic literacy may have been an issue but the RCC also forbade people reading the Bible for themselves.

    Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”

    Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...”

    Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”

    Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.
    Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years | HuffPost
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    I'm very well aware of this I'm saying though you don't think members of the clergy would have noticed something sooner vs later people in Luther's positon would have been extremely educated for even todays standards

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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Basic literacy may have been an issue but the RCC also forbade people reading the Bible for themselves.

    Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”

    Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...”

    Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”

    Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.
    Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years | HuffPost
    this is bearing false witness the fact is Tyndale was put to death by the British monarchy not the Catholic church and at the time England was protestant not Catholic and owning the bible itself was never a crime nor was reading the reason for the outlawing of translation was the fear that people would make faulty translations which has proven to be a well intended fear over time beyond that the church never had the authority to put people to death burning at the stake and such were governmental actions

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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    btw since when is Huffington Post a reliable source

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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    the reason nobody owned a bible though was because of the fact that until the 1400s bibles were hand printed and even than the early printing press was slow family bibles and such did not become common until the 1800s

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    btw since when is Huffington Post a reliable source
    Is the same information found nowhere else???
    You may be in need of studying history. Good luck


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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    this is bearing false witness the fact is Tyndale was put to death by the British monarchy not the Catholic church and at the time England was protestant not Catholic and owning the bible itself was never a crime nor was reading the reason for the outlawing of translation was the fear that people would make faulty translations which has proven to be a well intended fear over time beyond that the church never had the authority to put people to death burning at the stake and such were governmental actions
    The text said the church, not the Catholic church, please read more carefully, though the RCC certainly did oppose Tyndale: Bishop Tunstall had copies of Tyndale's Bible ceremoniously burned at St. Paul's; the archbishop of Canterbury bought up copies to destroy them.
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    the reason nobody owned a bible though was because of the fact that until the 1400s bibles were hand printed and even than the early printing press was slow family bibles and such did not become common until the 1800s

    I had a friend who was a Portuguese RCC! All kinds of nuns and priests n her extended family. She told me it has only been recently they were allowed to read the Bible. Like 30 years ago. So this statement of yours is also untrue! Lots of Bibles around in the 16 to 20th centuries.

    The reason these monolithic cults don't want their members to read the Bible is because then the would see what these so-called churches were teaching were in contradiction to the Bible.

    My grandparents were Eastern Orthodox, and my grandmother started reading the Bible, along with her friends. They started going to Sunday evening evangelical services. The next thing you know, she was telling family and friends that they needed to believe in Jesus! Not the church for salvation! And Catholic family members who read the Bible have left the RCC. Because, as my cousin says, "If Jesus is real, then you have to follow him, and not the doctrines of a church, where error has compounded century after century!" That being the RCC church, of course.

    PS I parted ways with my Catholic friend when she started sleeping with different men every night, but told me it was ok, because she could go to confession and be absolved of her sin! Like it was a lark!
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    PS I parted ways with my Catholic friend when she started sleeping with different men every night, but told me it was ok, because she could go to confession and be absolved of her sin! Like it was a lark!

    There's so much prejudice right throughout that statement. The choices described are not a reflection on catholic people or catholicism itself nor the beliefs it entails. That's just the people who you chose to associate with and their stupidity.
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    One question that should be elaborated and asked to many many people in this room that will probably cause a bit of a stir is why do so many people refuse to see non protestant Christian sects as Christian Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches I have all seen flippantly referred to apostate pagan religions on here and been compared to Scientology or Mormonism with no accurate basis can some one please try to explain this faulty frame of mind
    I don't know about Oriental Orthodox, but Eastern Orthodox and Catholicism both denounce Sola Scriptura, meaning they don't believe the scriptures are the sole source of our faith and practice as believing Christians.

    That's enough for me to call them apostate, pagan, religions.
    Last edited by SovereignGrace; 6 Days Ago at 09:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    I don't know about Oriental Orthodox, but Eastern Orthodox and Catholicism both denounce Sola Scriptura, meaning they don't believe the scriptures are the sole source of our faith and practice as believing Christians.

    That's enough for me to call them apostate, pagan, religions.
    this raises the question where in the Bible can sola scriptura actually be found this would be problematics if sola scriptura truly were in the Bible but the truth is it is not

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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    I am asking for what it is and why people seem to think this and why historically this didn't seem to be an issue until the 1500s I mean logically that doesn't add up with the amount of educated clergy men that where in the church for the nearly 1500 years between the beginning of the church and the reformation there is bound to have been someone to have noticed this very early on
    Here are some beliefs that aren't biblical in the RCC:
    apostolic succession
    worship of saints or Mary
    prayer to saints or Mary
    the pope
    infant baptism
    transubstantiation
    plenary indulgences
    the sacramental system
    purgatory

    And it's not true that everyone was fine with the Catholic Church. If you do some reading on church history, you'll find groups that left the catholic church and were persecuted for it.

    He has told you, O man, what is good;

    And what does the Lord require of you
    But to do justice, to love kindness,
    And to walk humbly with your God?
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    Senior Member Grace777x70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Then there is the issue of "indulgences" where in the dark ages the church at the time said that they could get their family members out of purgatory where they are burning - by being obedient to the church. ( which in a lot of cases meant - give them money )

    I heard stories of them having a big fire and putting hands into the fire and saying "Your family members are going through that". You can get them out of that - again by doing what the church says to do. Religion is a controlling, manipulative creature.
    The new man in Christ - the new creation that is created in righteousness and

    holiness hears the heart voice of the Spirit and not an old head noise of the letter

    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

    know God's heart and so they erred in really understanding what the

    scriptures were saying.


    The Lord wants us to look through His eyes and to live from His heart towards

    people, towards Him and towards ourselves as well.

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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Hi Magenta::: May I add to your already great post....

    When people (not the buildings) begin to change what God has to say in the Bible it is Blasphemy pure and simple. As I say in a somewhat harsher tone,,,they are calling GOD a liar.


    There are those people who would take the passage you just read and twist its words into something very different. THese are the people who should worry....

    When John 3:16 states: "6 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Yet people from every denomination save a very few do not believe in what Jesus said in the above verse...They have to put something with it. They have to change God's WORD to make it fit their lifestyles, etc. SO SAD
    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

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    Senior Member hornetguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by laura_charlotte View Post

    There's so much prejudice right throughout that statement. The choices described are not a reflection on catholic people or catholicism itself nor the beliefs it entails. That's just the people who you chose to associate with and their stupidity.
    ??????? What? Prejudice?

    She parted ways with her friend because she was living a promiscuous lifestyle, and blithely saying her "church" would forgiver her...

    Do you know of another church that grants absolution?

    How do you get "prejudiced" out of that?

    The RCC has a history of selling indulgences... in other words, you can live like the devil, and buy your way out of it, if you have enough money. Buying "forgiveness" ?? But parting ways with a friend that lives that kind of lifestyle is "prejudiced"?

    good grief...
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    The text said the church, not the Catholic church, please read more carefully, though the RCC certainly did oppose Tyndale: Bishop Tunstall had copies of Tyndale's Bible ceremoniously burned at St. Paul's; the archbishop of Canterbury bought up copies to destroy them.
    I never said the Catholic Church didn't oppose the Tyndale Bible I was saying it was not the Catholic Church who sought to put him to death or did put him to death the Tyndale Bible had a lot of translation errors in it hence why both the Catholic and Anglican churches took issue with it originally

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    One question that should be elaborated and asked to many many people in this room that will probably cause a bit of a stir is why do so many people refuse to see non protestant Christian sects as Christian Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches I have all seen flippantly referred to apostate pagan religions on here and been compared to Scientology or Mormonism with no accurate basis can some one please try to explain this faulty frame of mind
    Well here's the way it works. A person get saved and then begins to study the Bible diligently. Then he or she sits down to examine the teachings of the various Christian groups and denominations. Pretty soon he realizes that the Catholics, Orthodox etc have developed a false Christianity. Then he examines the cults such as Mormons and JWs and realizes that they have gone off the rails altogether. Ultimately only that which is clearly taught in the Bible can be (or should be) acceptable to all Christians. Unfortunately there are real apostates in Christendom, particularly in the mainline denominations and their seminaries and Bible schools. They attack the Bible and Bible doctrines. And this was prophesied by Christ and the apostles, so you have a moral and spiritual obligation to yourself to determine the truth from Scripture, and then hold fast to it.

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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    One question that should be elaborated and asked to many many people in this room that will probably cause a bit of a stir is why do so many people refuse to see non protestant Christian sects as Christian Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches I have all seen flippantly referred to apostate pagan religions on here and been compared to Scientology or Mormonism with no accurate basis can some one please try to explain this faulty frame of mind
    Because they have different text book
    among protestant may have different interpretation but they use the same bible.

    they do not want pray to human like Mary or Peter. Protestant do not believe Mary able to come to Lucy and give some instrction, for protestant It is demonic, great apostacy

    Follow demonic instruction can not be tolerant

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Christian Doctrinal Understanding

    Quote Originally Posted by RexCA View Post
    this raises the question where in the Bible can sola scriptura actually be found this would be problematics if sola scriptura truly were in the Bible but the truth is it is not
    Well, there's these...

    So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[Romans 10:17]

    and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [2 Timothy 3:15]

    There's no other way to know the things of God and salvation than through His word.
    Angela53510 likes this.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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