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Thread: A Discussion of Paradise

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    Senior Member hornetguy's Avatar
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    Default A Discussion of Paradise

    I'm curious what the opinions are about Paradise.... I know what I was taught, years ago, about what it is, but I haven't really researched all the scriptures about it.

    I was taught that it is a "place of waiting" for the day of judgment. It is divided into two parts, (Gehenna and Tartarus?)divided by a "great gulf". One part is for good folks, like Lazarus, and the other side is for bad folks, like the man who wanted someone to go back and warn his brothers to straighten up.

    Like I said, I'd like to hear other opinions about this, preferably backed up with scripture for my benefit.....
    No man is really saved unless he is in his heart obedient to Christ. C.H. Spurgeon

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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Paradise itself is mentioned in only 3 verses. None of them have to do with the Lazarus story that I can see. In the story - a place called "Abraham's bosom" and hell being around there too was talked about.

    Matt 23:43 2 Cor. 12:4 Rev. 2:7
    Last edited by Grace777x70; August 12th, 2017 at 11:41 PM.

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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by hornetguy View Post
    I'm curious what the opinions are about Paradise.... I know what I was taught, years ago, about what it is, but I haven't really researched all the scriptures about it.

    I was taught that it is a "place of waiting" for the day of judgment. It is divided into two parts, (Gehenna and Tartarus?)divided by a "great gulf". One part is for good folks, like Lazarus, and the other side is for bad folks, like the man who wanted someone to go back and warn his brothers to straighten up.

    Like I said, I'd like to hear other opinions about this, preferably backed up with scripture for my benefit.....
    Kinda rips apart the idea of people being surprised at not being chosen at the Judgment Day, doesn't it?
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    Senior Member hornetguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Kinda rips apart the idea of people being surprised at not being chosen at the Judgment Day, doesn't it?
    It would seem to be the case.... but what do you think Paradise is? Personally, I don't have a firm belief yet... just what I posted earlier about what I had been taught, early on.

    Since it matters not as far as salvation goes, I'm not worried about it either way... just curious.
    No man is really saved unless he is in his heart obedient to Christ. C.H. Spurgeon

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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Paradise for me is being with God wherever He is. Heaven, New Jerusalem, New Earth doesn't matter to me if He is there I'm good.

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Well....Jesus spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth which was identified with Paradise by his statement to the thief which means he did not go to hell as some believe. It also seems to be identified with a holding place for the saved who had believed in the coming messiah as identified by Luke 16 and Lazarus being carried to Abraham's bosom.....and is also identified with the saved who were SOMETIMES disobedient when they failed to acknowledge Noah's message I.E. Jesus went to lead "captivity captive" .......it seems the most logical conclusion is that it was a place that held all of the saved before the deal was ratified with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and was opposite of hell being separated by a great gulf that no man could pass...upon the resurrection Christ led those held there to heaven and now all who die go to heaven to be brought back when he comes again....that is my view.
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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by hornetguy View Post
    I'm curious what the opinions are about Paradise.... I know what I was taught, years ago, about what it is, but I haven't really researched all the scriptures about it.
    1. The Paradise of God is in Heaven, not in Sheol/Hades
    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7)

    2. The Paradise of God is in the New Jerusalem
    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.... (Rev 21:2) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:1,2).

    We know from Genesis that the tree of life was in the midst of the Garden of Eden. After the Fall of Man, Adam and Eve were driven out of that garden. However, the tree of life remained in it. Although we are not told when this garden -- now called Paradise -- was transferred to God's Heaven and located within the New Jerusalem, we now know where it is. The apostle Paul was supernaturally taken up to Heaven and shown this Paradise, but forbidden to disclose what he heard there (2 Cor 12:1-10):

    1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,
    4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
    6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
    7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
    8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
    9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
    Last edited by Nehemiah6; August 13th, 2017 at 01:06 AM.

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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    They say home is where your heart is and heaven paradise and eternal life are all words to describe our real home and for me my heart is right there in his lap it doesn't matter where we are as long as I am with him I am in paradise. Not many scriptures describe it sadly
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    The strongest among you may not wear a crown

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    Senior Member hornetguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Well....Jesus spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth which was identified with Paradise by his statement to the thief which means he did not go to hell as some believe. It also seems to be identified with a holding place for the saved who had believed in the coming messiah as identified by Luke 16 and Lazarus being carried to Abraham's bosom.....and is also identified with the saved who were SOMETIMES disobedient when they failed to acknowledge Noah's message I.E. Jesus went to lead "captivity captive" .......it seems the most logical conclusion is that it was a place that held all of the saved before the deal was ratified with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and was opposite of hell being separated by a great gulf that no man could pass...upon the resurrection Christ led those held there to heaven and now all who die go to heaven to be brought back when he comes again....that is my view.
    Interesting... I need to think that over... thanks for the thoughts....

    I read an interesting thought about what Jesus said to the thief... that the "comma" had been put in the wrong place by the translators of the Greek (since, apparently there is no punctuation in Greek?)

    It should read that Jesus told him "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

    They were not going to Paradise that day, upon their death...

    Especially since after the resurrection, Jesus had told Mary not to touch him, because he had not yet ascended to the Father (in Heaven)
    No man is really saved unless he is in his heart obedient to Christ. C.H. Spurgeon

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    Senior Member hornetguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    1. The Paradise of God is in Heaven, not in Sheol/Hades
    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7)

    2. The Paradise of God is in the New Jerusalem
    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.... (Rev 21:2) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:1,2).

    We know from Genesis that the tree of life was in the midst of the Garden of Eden. After the Fall of Man, Adam and Eve were driven out of that garden. However, the tree of life remained in it. Although we are not told when this garden -- now called Paradise -- was transferred to God's Heaven and located within the New Jerusalem, we now know where it is. The apostle Paul was supernaturally taken up to Heaven and shown this Paradise, but forbidden to disclose what he heard there (2 Cor 12:1-10):

    1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,
    4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
    6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
    7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
    8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
    9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
    and in more current English....

    Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations [a]of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. 6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.A Thorn in the Flesh

    7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast [c]about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with [d]insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
    So, what is your take on where the first and second heaven are?
    No man is really saved unless he is in his heart obedient to Christ. C.H. Spurgeon

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by hornetguy View Post
    (Gehenna and Tartarus?)
    Tartarus is mentioned only once in Scripture, as a holding place for Satan's angels; 2 Peter 2:4~

    For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved, (YLT)

    Most English versions, such as the KJV, NASB, NIV, and ESV, translate the word as Hell.


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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by hornetguy View Post
    So, what is your take on where the first and second heaven are?
    FIRST HEAVEN -- Atmosphere/Stratosphere (birds can fly here)

    SECOND HEAVEN -- Space (stars located here)

    THIRD HEAVEN -- God's Heaven with the New Jerusalem and Paradise within it.

    [It is currently believed that space is not infinite, and Scripture also speaks of "outer darkness" as the location of Hell (the Lake of fire)].

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Paradise- aka the world tomorrow

    All will know the truth. No more religious confusion.
    Eyes will be opened to the truth. Humans will become teachable.
    People will start living God’s way—the way of outgoing concern for others—
    the way of the true values—the way of peace, of happiness, of well-being, of joy.

    Crime, sickness, disease, pain and suffering, gone. Poverty, ignorance banished.
    Smiles on people’s faces—faces that radiate. Wild animals tame. Air pollution,
    water pollution, soil pollution, gone. Crystal pure water to drink; clean, crisp,
    pure air to breathe; rich black soil where deserts, mountains and seas formerly
    were, producing full-flavored foods, and fantastic beauty in flowers, shrubs, trees.
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    It also begs the question considering it's of no use now did God decide to keep it or remove it.

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    THIRD HEAVEN -- God's Heaven with the New Jerusalem and Paradise within it.
    In another post you indicated that the New Jerusalem will not descend from heaven to the new Earth. The New Jerusalem comes down FROM heaven to men and does what in your view? Hovers in space? Free falls forever? While the new earth does what? Remains uninhabited? I am curious to know...


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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    I've heard it said the phrase paradise lost so could be that the Garden of Eden was considered paradise at one point and the moment Adam and Eve sinned they were removed from the Garden and Adam had to toil outside the garden to grow food.
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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by JesusLives View Post
    I've heard it said the phrase paradise lost so could be that the Garden of Eden was considered paradise at one point and the moment Adam and Eve sinned they were removed from the Garden and Adam had to toil outside the garden to grow food.
    The Lord God took the man and put him in the
    Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
    Genesis 2:15

    Some think Adam did not have to work in the garden, but it seems he did
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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Ezekiel 36:35
    And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden;
    and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

    Isaiah 51:3
    For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make
    her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness
    shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    The Lord God took the man and put him in the
    Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
    Genesis 2:15

    Some think Adam did not have to work in the garden, but it seems he did
    After they sinned they had to leave as the tree of life was near the tree of knowledge of good and evil and man could not be allowed to eat of the tree of life less sin last forever. What I have heard anyway.
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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Discussion of Paradise

    Paradise and Abraham's bosom are not the same things

    Jesus said the beggar "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."

    A "bosom" is the breast of a human being, with the arms as an enclosure;
    a loving embrace by the arms of one person about another; an intimate relationship.

    Lazarus a Gentile, was carried into an intimate relationship with Abraham.

    To the Gentile-born Galatians, the Scriptures written by Paul say definitely: "And if ye
    be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed (children), and heirs according to the promise."
    Thru Christ, Thru faith we all become "the children of Abraham." That is an intimate
    relationship with Abraham. That is being taken into Abraham's bosom!

    Abraham is an HEIR of God. God gave Abraham a PROMISE.(Gal. 3:29),
    those who thru Christ become Abraham's children are heirs--
    but heirs according to the promise God made to Abraham!

    "And Abram took Sarai his wife,...and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan;
    and into the land of Canaan they came. ...And the Eternal appeared unto Abram,
    and said, Unto thy seed I give THIS LAND." (Gen. 12:5-7.)

    God promised Abraham: "For all the LAND which thou seest,
    to thee will I give it, and to thy seed FOREVER." (Gen. 13 :15.)

    "In the same day the Eternal made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed
    have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

    (Gen. 15:18.) Here God wrote into the agreement, or the title to the property,
    the very boundary line of the property. Of course the expression "thy seed"
    refers in particular to Christ, but since this beggar was Christ's, he, also, was
    "Abraham's seed, and heir according to the promise."

    The promise was the LAND of Palestine, on this earth. It was for ever, so the promise
    included eternal life, and eternal inheritance . (Heb. 9:15.)

    The PROMISE then, was ETERNAL LIFE ON THIS EARTH!
    When was this beggar to inherit to come into possession of ETERNAL LIFE
    in THE PROMISED LAND? Jesus, in telling about Lazarus and the rich man,
    did not cover that point.

    The son, who is heir to his father s property cannot come into possession of it
    before his father inherits it. This beggar, carried into the intimate relationship
    of a son of Abraham, could not inherit either eternal LIFE, or this LAND,
    prior to the time his father Abraham receives these promises.

    Acts 7: "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory
    appeared unto our Father Abraham . . . and said unto him, Get thee out of thy
    country, and from thy kindred, and come into THE LAND which I will show thee.

    Then came he out of the land of the Chaldeans . . . into this land, wherein ye now
    dwell. (Palestine.) And He gave him none inheritance in it . . . yet He promised that
    he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him." (Acts 7:1-5.)

    "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should
    after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; . . . By faith he sojourned in the LAND
    of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,
    the heirs with him of the same promise: . . .

    These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen
    them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
    and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Heb. 11:8-13.)

    We read in John 8:52, "Abraham is dead". At that time-- centuries after he died,
    Abraham WAS DEAD! He is still dead today. When then, is he to inherit the promises?

    For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . . .and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
    (I Thes. 4:16.) Human mortals, in Christ, living and dead, receive eternal life-
    - immortality-- the PROMISES God made to Abraham at Christ's Second Coming.

    That is when they shall put on immortality! "Flesh and blood (human mortals)
    cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in
    a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
    and the dead (including Abraham and the beggar) shall be raised incorruptible,

    and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
    and this mortal must put on immortality." (I Cor. 15:50-53.)

    That is when they shall put on immortality! "Flesh and blood (human mortals)
    cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him,"
    the Second Coming of Christ--and all the ANGELS come with Him "THEN shall He sit
    upon the throne of His glory: . . . THEN"--and not until then--"shall the King say unto
    them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM
    prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Mat. 25:31-34.)

    Abraham would receive the promises, including eternal life, thru the RESURRECTION:
    "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto
    you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

    God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Mat. 22:31-32.) Jesus did not say
    Abraham was then living. Yet the things God has promised are so certain they may be
    counted as if already accomplished. Abraham, was and still is DEAD.

    Jesus spoke this about Abraham "as touching the RESURRECTION of the dead."
    Abraham will be RESURRECTED. Jesus told the Pharisees they would see Abraham in
    the Kingdom (Luke 13:28), because Abraham, now DEAD, will then be RESURRECTED!

    Jesus said about Lazarus in Luke. Jesus said this beggar died. So, like Abraham,
    he is STILL DEAD ! But Jesus said that, after he died, "he was carried by the angels
    into Abraham's bosom." into the status of a son and heir of Abraham, to inherit
    THE LAND on this earth, and ETERNAL LIFE upon it, at the time his father Abraham
    comes into his inheritance--at the time of the Resurrection.

    But notice, Lazarus is to be carried there by the angels! When do the angels come down
    from heaven? : Christ shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
    gather together His elect from the four winds"-- out of their graves in a RESURRECTION.
    (Mat. 24:31.)

    The TIME when the angels carry Lazarus and the saints into sharing the INHERITANCE
    with Abraham-- into Abraham's bosom-- is the time of the RESURRECTION! Lazarus is to
    be resurrected, and carried by the angels thru the air to meet Christ, at His return, and to
    be with Abraham, in the intimate relationship of father and son!

    the Bible uses the word "bosom." In Isaiah 40:11. Here God will care for His people as a
    shepherd does for his sheep, which He will carry "in His bosom." Jesus was "in the bosom"
    of the Father (John 1:18), enjoying the Father's blessings and close relationship.

    Moses carried the children of Israel in his bosom. To be in one's bosom is to have
    that one's love and protection, and share his blessings and inheritance.

    So it will be AT THE RESURRECTION!
    Last edited by prove-all; August 13th, 2017 at 02:37 AM.
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