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Thread: Baptism

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    Default Baptism

    What is the method of baptism in your church? Where I go we baptized in Jesus name

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Good question. Mayhaps you should address it to davidrosen?
    Hebrews 13:5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism

    Immersion in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Alman View Post
    What is the method of baptism in your church? Where I go we baptized in Jesus name
    I was once approached on my mail route by a Oneness Pentecostal who explained to me that if I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and not in 'Jesus name only' that my baptism was invalid and I will not be saved until I do so. I certainly hope that your church does not teach that.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I was once approached on my mail route by a Oneness Pentecostal who explained to me that if I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and not in 'Jesus name only' that my baptism was invalid and I will not be saved until I do so. I certainly hope that your church does not teach that.
    One could respond to that by saying that they are being legalist or of the letter because the name of the Father & the Son & the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ. There is no other name associated with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost to be water baptized by, and so it is understood when baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, it is the name of Jesus Christ.

    Another way to respond is to have them provide scripture that baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is invalid when Jesus taught His disciples to baptize in that way as well. It can be understood that He meant the name of Jesus Christ as Acts does testify to that on some occasions, but at the same time, it is also understood what it means to be baptized "in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" as well as that name can only be Jesus Christ.
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    Senior Member Limey410v2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism

    I had very little knowledge of the scriptures when I was saved, so I accepted that Jesus did what he said he did (died for the forgiveness of all my sin), and received the Holy Spirit in to my life for my resurrection and eternal life with Him.

    Saved, sealed and delivered.

    Scripture teaches me that I am the church, so I guess Jesus took care of my baptism all by Himself.

    I was later dunked in water for a "religious" sacrament I suppose, but I really don't remember all the words that were used in that ceremony.

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan345577578 View Post
    In catholicism and orthodoxy its invalid and i truly believe that baptism is essential for salvation mark 16:16 is clear
    Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

    If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

    John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Originally Posted by Jordan345577578
    In catholicism and orthodoxy its invalid and i truly believe that baptism is essential for salvation mark 16:16 is clear
    In addition to mailmandan's reply below, it is an assumption to read John 16:16's baptism as water baptism when that can be applied to the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation. In Acts 10th chapter, the Gentiles had been baptized with the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism.

    Acts 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    So the power in salvation is not by water baptism but by believing in Him.

    1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God......21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

    If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

    John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    In addition to mailmandan's reply below, it is an assumption to read John 16:16's baptism as water baptism when that can be applied to the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation. In Acts 10th chapter, the Gentiles had been baptized with the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism.

    Acts 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    So the power in salvation is not by water baptism but by believing in Him.

    1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God......21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    Amen, baptism in water is a testimony of one's faith in the accomplishment of Christ.
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    Default Re: Baptism

    By immersion or pouring "in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

    If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

    John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    If Baptism is not essential for salvation then how are these verses to be explained?


    • Jn 3:5, 22 – born of water & Spirit: Apostles begin baptizing
    • Tit 3:5 – saved us through bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit
    • Acts 2:37-38 – repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit
    • Acts 22:16 – get selves baptized and sins washed away
    • 1Cor 6:11 – you were washed, sanctified, justified
    • Rom 6:4 – baptized into death; live in newness of life
    • 1Pet 3:21 – baptism…now saves you
    • Heb 10:22 – heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water
    • Ezk 36:24-28 – God promises to unite Himself to His people through a regenerative washing in pure water by the power of the Holy Spirit (added by Shameless Popery)



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    Senior Member Limey410v2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberman View Post
    If Baptism is not essential for salvation then how are these verses to be explained?


    • Jn 3:5, 22 – born of water & Spirit: Apostles begin baptizing
    • Tit 3:5 – saved us through bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit
    • Acts 2:37-38 – repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit
    • Acts 22:16 – get selves baptized and sins washed away
    • 1Cor 6:11 – you were washed, sanctified, justified
    • Rom 6:4 – baptized into death; live in newness of life
    • 1Pet 3:21 – baptism…now saves you
    • Heb 10:22 – heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water
    • Ezk 36:24-28 – God promises to unite Himself to His people through a regenerative washing in pure water by the power of the Holy Spirit (added by Shameless Popery)


    If you are speaking of Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit then yes, that is the process by which we become indwelled by the Holy Spirit, saved.

    If you are talking of an earthly physical fleshly baptism or a mere fleshly act then no. Anyone can do that. Only Jesus saves.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Limey410v2 View Post
    If you are speaking of Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit then yes, that is the process by which we become indwelled by the Holy Spirit, saved.

    If you are talking of an earthly physical fleshly baptism or a mere fleshly act then no. Anyone can do that. Only Jesus saves.
    Yes, only Jesus saves but How does He do this? In the verses, that I quoted, Baptism is salvific in nature.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberman View Post
    If Baptism is not essential for salvation then how are these verses to be explained?

    • Jn 3:5, 22 – born of water & Spirit: Apostles begin baptizing -- "Water" here is a metaphor for the Word of God, and specifically the Gospel (see 1 Peter 1:23-25)



    • Tit 3:5 – saved us through bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit -- This cannot be misunderstood. The washing and the regeneration are by the Holy Spirit, therefore internal



    • Acts 2:37-38 – repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit -- It appears that way until you read the rest of Acts (see Acts 10)



    • Acts 22:16 – get selves baptized and sins washed away -- This makes water baptism a symbol of the internal washing



    • 1Cor 6:11 – you were washed, sanctified, justified -- Christians are washed in the blood of the Lamb



    • Rom 6:4 – baptized into death; live in newness of life -- This is the true meaning of water baptism. Symbolic death, burial, and resurrection with Christ



    • 1Pet 3:21 – baptism…now saves you -- Saves you from a guilty conscience by not having been baptized



    • Heb 10:22 – heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water -- Note it is "bodies" not "souls"

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberman View Post
    If Baptism is not essential for salvation then how are these verses to be explained?


    • Jn 3:5, 22 – born of water & Spirit: Apostles begin baptizing


    In context, Jesus's reference to water is to the normal birth as being of the flesh when Israel used to be born into the Kingdom of God by blood relative, and then baptized with the Spirit is how one is born again of the Spirit.

    Jesus deferred from the normal birth into entering in the kingdom of God by water ( how a woman's water broke to indicate a coming birth ) and saying that which is born again of the Spirit is of the Spirit.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    Verse 8 is a testimony that there is to be no outside telltale sign as proof to those born again of the Spirit when it happens.

    Jesus continued by answering Nicodemus's question on how one is born again... by believing in Him after His resurrection and His ascension to the Father above.

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    So the born again experience was to happen after Jesus had ascended to God the Father so that whenever any one believes in Him, the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost is sent at that believer's salvation by the Father in Jesus's name.

    The natural birth by blood relative used to be how one was "born" into the kingdom of God under the Old Covenant.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Tit 3:5 – saved us through bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit
    In context, that is referring to the baptism of the Holy Ghost at our salvation. Do note that it is not by any works of righteousness which we have done... and so that discounts water baptism as a means to obtain salvation by.

    Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Acts 2:37-38 – repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit
    It is understandable that you would apply that verse to mean water baptism is essential but read it in context and with the rest of scripture to see that water baptism was just an ordinance for saved believers to follow; not a means to receive the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation in being born again of the Spirit.

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    So these Jews that had crucified Jesus Christ because they did not believe in Him, were pricked in their hearts when they realized that they had crucified their Messiah and had asked what they were to do after having done such a horrible thing to God which they had participated in by joining the crowd to have Him crucified.

    So when Peter called them to repent... it was to repent from unbelief, for the remission of sins whereas the water baptism was interjected in there but not meaning to serve as a means by which they had received the promise of the Spirit.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Proof that by believing in Him is that call to repent for the Jews to do in order to receive the remission of sins is how one receives remission of sins when that same gospel was preached clearer to the Gentiles without interjecting that ordinance in that altar call, because the Gentiles had received the promise of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    So by reading other scripture with the reference you had cited in Acts 2, one could better understand Peter what he had actually meant in how any one receives the remission of sins and that was by believing in Him and thus receive the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation.

    Acts 22:16 – get selves baptized and sins washed away
    Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    By calling on the name of the Lord to be saved is believing in Him to receive the remission of sins.

    1Cor 6:11 – you were washed, sanctified, justified
    Not by water baptism. Read it again below. It lines up with Titus 3:5-6

    Titus 3: 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;7

    1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Rom 6:4 – baptized into death; live in newness of life
    That hardly points to water baptism when receiving Christ at our salvation is how we had received newness of life to walk in newness of life, otherwise, one could apply that verse below that one has to live in newness of life by constantly water baptizing oneself.

    Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

    So how we walk in newness of life is not by water baptism but by having received Jesus Christ at our salvation.

    1Pet 3:21 – baptism…now saves you
    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Water is used to putting away the filth of the flesh and so it is not water baptism, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by believing by the resurrection of Jesus Christ is how one is baptized with the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

    Heb 10:22 – heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water
    Has any body been washed by pure water with our heart sprinkled too?? So we should look at this analogy and what brings this analogy about as a result.

    Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

    So our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water is by doing what? Drawing near to Him in full assurance of faith.. by believing in Him is how we receive the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation.





    • Ezk 36:24-28 – God promises to unite Himself to His people through a regenerative washing in pure water by the power of the Holy Spirit (added by Shameless Popery)


    But that can be read in lining up with Titus 3:5-6 as saying the same thing without water baptism. When you read that reference, do note that this is God saying what He will do.. not you doing it for Him by water baptism.

    Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Did you put a new heart in believer? Did you put a new spirit in believers? No. God did. And so it is God that cleanses us with pure & clean water as in washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

    Titus 3: 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;7

    So when you read thoe references of yours in context and all together, you can see that water baptism has nothing to do with the remission of sins but by believing in Jesus Christ so that by doing so, is how one receives the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation. It is by believing in Him is what pleases God to save sinners by.

    1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God......21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    You have written a lot and I hope that I can get back with you on this.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    • Jn 3:5, 22 – born of water & Spirit: Apostles begin baptizing -- "Water" here is a metaphor for the Word of God, and specifically the Gospel (see 1 Peter 1:23-25)



    • Tit 3:5 – saved us through bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit -- This cannot be misunderstood. The washing and the regeneration are by the Holy Spirit, therefore internal



    • Acts 2:37-38 – repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit -- It appears that way until you read the rest of Acts (see Acts 10)



    • Acts 22:16 – get selves baptized and sins washed away -- This makes water baptism a symbol of the internal washing



    • 1Cor 6:11 – you were washed, sanctified, justified -- Christians are washed in the blood of the Lamb



    • Rom 6:4 – baptized into death; live in newness of life -- This is the true meaning of water baptism. Symbolic death, burial, and resurrection with Christ



    • 1Pet 3:21 – baptism…now saves you -- Saves you from a guilty conscience by not having been baptized



    • Heb 10:22 – heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water -- Note it is "bodies" not "souls"
    If you believe that these verses refer to something other than Baptism then why did those, in the Early Church, believe that these referred to Baptism? Were the ones, who were taught by the Apostles or those who were taught by men who were taught by the Apostles, wrong?

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    Default Re: Baptism

    If water baptism was not important to salvation then why was it even done in the bible? Why would Jesus day in the bible go and baptise them in Jesus name?.
    Let He Who lives without sin cast the first stone.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberman View Post
    If Baptism is not essential for salvation then how are these verses to be explained?
    You did not answer my question. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

    Jn 3:5, 22 – born of water & Spirit: Apostles begin baptizing
    Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit.

    Have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

    In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.In regards to water baptism in John 3:22, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.

    Tit 3:5 – saved us through bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit
    The washing of regeneration refers to spiritual washing/purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Who is the source of living water) through the word of God at the moment of salvation and not plain ordinary H20. The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

    Acts 2:37-38 – repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit
    In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

    *Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

    *In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

    *So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

    Acts 22:16 – get selves baptized and sins washed away
    The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord. This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not wash the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ. So Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Acts 9 does not specifically tell us when Saul was filled with the Spirit, but verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. *We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism. It's also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.

    Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

    1Cor 6:11 – you were washed, sanctified, justified
    This refers to spiritual cleansing that occurs at regeneration which is signified, but not procured in water baptism.

    Rom 6:4 – baptized into death; live in newness of life
    The allusion is to the SYMBOLISM of baptism which was the OUTWARD SIGN of the separation. Baptized into water is not the same as being baptized into the body of Christ. Water baptism as a picture of death, burial and resurrection symbolizes our likeness to Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. One is the picture or likeness of the other. Water baptism is not the reality but only a picture of the reality. We are mystically placed into the body of Christ when we believe the gospel, and this is when we are placed into the body of Christ through Spirit baptism, not water baptism (Acts 11:17; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

    1Pet 3:21 – baptism…now saves you
    Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

    Heb 10:22 – heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water
    Hebrews 10:22 in the NASB reads - "let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." *Notice the order. Reference to this verse as proving regeneration, or the new birth, by water baptism ignores the point of the contrasting of that sprinkling which affects the heart, removing from it an evil conscience, and that washing of the body with pure water. It is the sprinkling (with the Blood of Christ- Hebrews 9:14; I Peter 1:2) which touches the heart. The washing of pure water affects the body. Paul was careful to distinguish between an outward holiness or circumcision, which was of the flesh (Romans 2:28-29) and an inward holiness, which was of the heart. The true Jew, the true child of Abraham (and therefore the true Christian) has the inward circumcision of the heart, not only the outward, and this is accomplished by the "sprinkling of the blood of Christ" (I Peter 1:2), not by a washing in water in the ordinance of water baptism. The writer of Hebrews shows us that no outward ceremony affects the heart (Hebrews 9:13ff.). He would not, and does not contradict himself here by teaching that the washing of the body in water accomplishes an inward cleansing. The washing of the body in pure water does not present baptism as the means of the cleansing or purifying of the heart. The sprinkling with the Blood of Christ is, and washing our bodies with water is expressly distinguished from sprinkling with the Blood of Christ. Since water baptism is not the means of purifying the heart from sin, it is not the means of regeneration, and it is not absolutely necessary for salvation.

    Ezk 36:24-28 – God promises to unite Himself to His people through a regenerative washing in pure water by the power of the Holy Spirit (added by Shameless Popery)
    Water baptism is merely symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." God is the source of living water that cleanses the heart from sin. In Jeremiah 2:13, God Himself is called the "fountain of living water." (Sound familiar? - John 4:14). For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living water, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water. In Isaiah 12:3 we read, "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation."





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    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberman View Post
    If you believe that these verses refer to something other than Baptism then why did those, in the Early Church, believe that these referred to Baptism? Were the ones, who were taught by the Apostles or those who were taught by men who were taught by the Apostles, wrong?
    You are wasting your time with these fellows, they are of the "trust only" sects. No matter how many or how clear your scriptures are they will not listen. They will simply find some odd way of showing that the passage really means the opposite.

    None of the scriptures will ever mean what it clearly states. They will explain what the true meaning is and to just ignore the man behind the curtain.

    They simply will not listen.

    But do not give up, others with honest open hearts are watching.

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