View Poll Results: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

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  • Original sin is the imputation of Adam's sin to us, accompanied by a sin nature.

    14 66.67%
  • Original sin isn't the imputation of Adam's sin to us, but is only the receipt of a sin nature.

    7 33.33%
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Thread: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

  1. #1
    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    On this site, I see a vast departure from the proper doctrine of original sin.

    The original sin doctrine says that Adam's sin is imputed to us, and as a result, all of mankind, prior to salvation, is guilty of Adam's sin BY IMPUTATION. We are sinners by imputation, as well as committing actual sin. We cannot, however, claim to believe in original sin by simply acknowledging the receipt of a sin nature, and the actual sin that accompanies it eventually.

    The view that original sin only affects the nature, and is not imputed, is a sub-Orthodox view. It is mostly based on a philosophical view that imputation of Adam's sin would be "unfair".

    However, if the same criteria is applied to imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, we would reject that doctrine. Pelagians would gladly agree that the imputation of Christ's righteousness is a false doctrine, but they are heretics.

    Anyways I'm wondering how many on the forums percentagewise deny the doctrine of original sin, and claim that it is a false doctrine. Group consensus is irrelevant as it is a biblical view, but I am wondering how widespread the other view is.
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    Senior Member Snoozy's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    we each decide to sin we cant blame adam for our sins.
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    This is interesting, sparkman. A new view for me.

    A always thought its about our sinful nature.

    Christ´ righteousness is a state, right? Or lets say "our new nature". If this is so, the "sinful nature" seems to be a logical counterpart.
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    My view on Original Sin?

    It's biblical.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
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    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Romans 5:12-21 (ESV)Death in Adam, Life in Christ

    12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
    15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
    18 Therefore, as one trespass[b] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[c] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness

    It should be pointed out that Adam's sin doesn't not only involve death; it involves condemnation. Sometimes those who deny original sin claim that Adam's sin only means that mankind dies physically, but this is not biblical.

    Notice that we were MADE sinners by Adam's transgression.

    Pelagians claim we sin by example, and that imputation of Adam's sin, as well as a sin nature, is not biblical.

    It should be noted that original sin is not an exclusively Reformed doctrine, but informed Arminians would agree with it as well, because it's biblical. Some that consider themselves to be Arminian may not agree, but as a rule, Arminians would agree with the concept of original sin being the sin of Adam imputed to us.
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    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    This is interesting, sparkman. A new view for me.

    A always thought its about our sinful nature.

    Christ´ righteousness is a state, right? Or lets say "our new nature". If this is so, the "sinful nature" seems to be a logical counterpart.
    Yes, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us at salvation. Romans 5 addresses the fact that Adam's sin is imputed to us, as well as Christ's righteousness if we are "in Christ". All of us are "in Adam" at birth as being part of the human race.

    The concept is that of federal headship. Adam made decisions for us in the Fall. But, because of philosophical assertions regarding fairness, some here reject this concept.

    But it is solidly biblical

    I think the irritant with some is that we can only be held accountable for things we personally do, but that's not a biblical view when it comes to original sin. Invariably someone is going to bring up Ezekiel 18, but original sin is an exception to this.

    It's a worthwhile study to see what the Bible means by being "in Adam", "in Christ" and "in Moses". This is related to the nature of covenants and how those under the covenants are represented by the covenant head. Because Christ is our covenant head, we have his righteousness by imputation. Same with the Adamic covenant; by virtue of it, prior to salvation, we have his sin imputed to us.

    Watch the fur fly.
    Last edited by sparkman; August 13th, 2017 at 08:27 AM.
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    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman View Post
    Yes, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us at salvation. Romans 5 addresses the fact that Adam's sin is imputed to us, as well as Christ's righteousness if we are "in Christ". All of us are "in Adam" at birth as being part of the human race.

    The concept is that of federal headship. Adam made decisions for us in the Fall. But, because of philosophical assertions regarding fairness, some here reject this concept.

    But it is solidly biblical

    I think the irritant with some is that we can only be held accountable for things we personally do, but that's not a biblical view when it comes to original sin. Invariably someone is going to bring up Ezekiel 18, but original sin is an exception to this.

    It's a worthwhile study to see what the Bible means by being "in Adam", "in Christ" and "in Moses". This is related to the nature of covenants and how those under the covenants are represented by the covenant head. Because Christ is our covenant head, we have his righteousness by imputation. Same with the Adamic covenant; by virtue of it, prior to salvation, we have his sin imputed to us.

    Watch the fur fly.
    I should have said, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as members of the New Covenant as believers.

    Imputed sinfulness, imputed righteousness, Actual sinfulness, actual righteousness are interesting things to consider.

    By virtue of being in Adam, as a descendant of Adam, his sin was imputed to me. I actually sinned eventually due to the sin nature, but that doesn't change the fact that his sin was imputed to me.

    By virtue of being in Christ, as a believer, his righteousness is imputed to me. I will actually become righteous progressively over time (especially at glorification), but I enjoy the status of righteousness now, while being made righteous through sanctification.
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    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    I don't want to get off track on this thread, but some will likely bring up babies who die early in life, and whether they are unsaved due to original sin.

    Those who deny original sin in terms of imputation will sometimes base it on this point regarding infants, claiming those who believe in original sin (properly defined) deny the salvation of infants.

    I would counter with the argument that if their view is true, we have a class of sinless individuals (babies who died early) who won't be able to call Christ their Savior, so they will be required to stay silent in the choir when praises are sung to the Lamb who died for our sins in the world to come.

    Obviously I don't believe that there is any class of sinless individuals, and those children will be able to call Christ their savior too. How Christ saves them, I don't know, but I know that Jesus is their Savior too.
    Last edited by sparkman; August 13th, 2017 at 08:47 AM.
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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman View Post
    The original sin doctrine says that Adam's sin is imputed to us, and as a result, all of mankind, prior to salvation, is guilty of Adam's sin BY IMPUTATION. We are sinners by imputation, as well as committing actual sin.
    No matter how the theologians have arrived at this conclusion, this is NOT what Scripture reveals. And if we are going to go strictly by the Bible then we should carefully look at what is actually stated, not what some have assumed. The passages that deals with this matter are Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Cor 15:21,47-49.

    12
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    slept.
    21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.




    47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
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    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    No matter how the theologians have arrived at this conclusion, this is NOT what Scripture reveals. And if we are going to go strictly by the Bible then we should carefully look at what is actually stated, not what some have assumed. The passages that deals with this matter are Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Cor 15:21,47-49.

    12
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    slept.
    21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.




    47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    No assumption is being made. Scripture clearly teaches it.

    In fact, it grates against the natural man to realize that certain things are outside of their control. That's why this will be a hot topic thread.

    Natural man tries to define God in terms that he understands, and this concept grates against the fleshly man's mind. Fairness in their worldview dictates against biblical teaching.

    What would be interesting to note is if you reject justification by faith alone and imputed righteousness too. Are you Pelagian?

    Some are not Pelagian and still disagree with original sin, but others are Pelagians masquerading as Christians. So, it's hard to say.

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    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    I should have offered a third choice on the poll..original sin doesn't involve imputation of the guilt of Adam's sin to us, and it doesn't involve the receipt of a sin nature.

    That would be the Pelagian position.

    I would go so far as to say that the idea that Adam's sin wasn't imputed to us, but we only receive a sin nature, is also close to Pelagianism.
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozy View Post
    we each decide to sin we cant blame adam for our sins.
    You are right we cant blame Adam for our personell sin. But because we are his descendants, we are standing under his sin. And his sin had consequences for the whole creation. Praise the Lord who paid for our sin, so that we nnow can have free entry to our Father and are adopted in His family!

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman View Post
    No assumption is being made. Scripture clearly teaches it.
    Let's set aside all the nonsense about Pelagians, Augustinians, and all the rest. I have posted the actual Scriptures. So now the burden of proof is ON YOU to show where in those verses Adam's sin is IMPUTED to us. All we see are the RESULTS of Adam's sin.

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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    This scripture by David speaks to me IMO - of the original sin nature that is in this earth by Adam's transgression. I don't think he is talking about his mother committing adultery to have David.

    Psalm 51:5 (NASB)
    5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

    Scriptures talk about the "mystery of iniquity or lawlessness" that is in the world.

    The law of sin is still in the flesh.


    Romans 7:23 (NASB)
    23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

    Romans 7:17-20 (NASB)

    17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

    19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

    20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    Paul says that the body is dead because "of sin" but the spirit is alive because of righteousness. ( this is the new creation in Christ )

    Romans 8:10 (NASB)
    10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    I believe that knowing that we are dead to sin that is in our flesh because of the circumcision of Christ where the Holy Spirit "cuts away" the inner man in Christ from the flesh is paramount in growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord.

    The law of sin is in the flesh - the members of our body but we - the new creation in Christ are "in the spirit".

    This is what is meant by "walking by or living by the spirit" - walk by and live by who we are in Christ because we are joined as one spirit with the Lord.

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    Senior Member BillG's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    With regard to imputed or not I don't know. Neither do I consider it a hill to die on.

    All I know is that through Adam, sin entered the world and the result was death and separation from God.

    I do not teach my kids to sin, no one taught me to sin but we sin.

    I am responsible for my own sin and not Adams, but as a person I suffer the consequences af Adams sin.

    I had a chat with an atheist who got very upset indeed concerning imputed sin. He said "I get very angry when you christians tell me that Adams sin is imputed on me, don't you dare tell me that I suffer the consequences of what Adam did"

    All I could say to him was "You do suffer the consequences of Adams sin which is death and separation from God, but that is as a result of your own sin. One day you will die then you will meet God and answer for your own sins"

    Now one person considered sin a hill to die on.

    That is Jesus. When said it is finished the temple curtain was torn in two and What separated us from God was removed and dealt with and we are now reconciled to the Father through Jesus.

    We can now walk with him like Adam did.
    Lord

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    I voted on the poll option 1, Adam's sin is imputted to all creation, so we all need a saviour who will replace us for all have sinned.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post

    All I know is that through Adam, sin entered the world and the result was death and separation from God.

    I do not teach my kids to sin, no one taught me to sin but we sin.

    I am responsible for my own sin and not Adams, but as a person I suffer the consequences af Adams sin.
    Well said. That is precisely what we find in Scripture. Adam was a mere mortal man, therefore his sin could not be imputed to anyone else. Indeed, it is not even imputed to Eve in Scripture. But that his disobedience affect the whole human race is perfectly clear, and that it affected the entire creation is also perfectly clear.

    Christians need to beware of theologians and theologies, since many of them are purely man-made with no foundation in Scripture.
    Last edited by Nehemiah6; August 13th, 2017 at 01:50 PM.
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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Well said. That is precisely what we find in Scripture. Adam was a mere mortal man, therefore his sin could not be imputed to anyone else. Indeed, it is not even imputed to Eve in Scripture. But that his disobedience affect the whole human race is perfectly clear, and that it affected the entire creation is also perfectly clear.

    Christians need to beware of theologians and theologies, since many of them are purely man-made with no foundation in Scripture.
    What I find interesting is that Adam blamed Eve. Shifted the blame.
    We can't shift out sin on someone else.

    How ever we can do but that is a different story.
    Lord

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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    It would have been nice if the poll offered us a third option, one that is more aligned with the scientific consensus.
    It should read something like this: since we now know, based on conclusive scientific evidence, that the human population was never smaller than 10,000 to 15,000 individuals (population genetics have conclusively shown this) the idea that there was a bottleneck of two progenitors (Adam and Eve) is demonstrably false.
    No Adam and Eve, no original sin.

    One would think that this knowledge would come as a welcome surprise, relieving many of a needless burden, but then, as H.L. Mencken observed: "The truth, indeed, is something that mankind, for some mysterious reason, instinctively dislikes. Everyone who tries to tell it is unpopular"

    Seymour Glass

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    Default Re: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

    so based on all you know and believe, what was Adam's sin?

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