EXODUS or PRETRIB RAPTURE

[Allenbee]

EXODUS or RAPTURE… before the great tribulation ?
Peace to all the sheep of our Lord, who follow wherever HE goes !

INTRODUCTION
A prophesied miracle has definitely happened.
Throughout the word, individuals have cleared their minds of all previous Church teachings and have studied the Bible as foretold by Daniel.
But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

The miracle that HAS happened is that these individual studies worldwide… have ALL come to the same scriptural conclusion or KNOWLAGE !
What they all found is that there is an EXODUS of believers worldwide before the great tribulation.
This thread… is to collect together “The voice in the wilderness” worldwide, by sharing our studies.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

From our Lord Jesus then… like it or not;
“flee to the mountains” starts the end time Exodus and is WRITTEN in your Bible at Math 24;16, and written directly before the Great tribulation. Surely to be obeyed !

“NO” scream the city Churches, then we loose our tithe !!!
Sooooo… “they” promote the pre trib rapture which is NOT written in OUR LORD’S instructions at Math 24.
However there IS a gathering of His CHOSEN ONES “immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” !

This false teaching of a pretrib rapture is nothing but a manipulative compilation of scriptures to “tickle the ears” of the rich and comfortable in Satans world, and a sure death trap promoted by “false Christ” Church leaders . These “leaders” want to keep mankind enslaved in Satan’s world for as long as possible, so they can continue living in luxury by stealing GOD’S tithe. True story… as ALL religions REFUSE to even debate “flee to the mountains” or “fly to the wilderness”.

So…forget churches, study the Bible yourself to join the fast growing Exodus flock today.
We agree to OBEY OUR LORD to flee the worldwide destruction of Satans cities (Babylon the great city). Simple and - TRUE.
By example; ONLY our Lord’s believers survived by fleeing Jerusalem at 66-70 CE.
This is the pattern from our God of ORDER.
Supported by; “as in the days of Noah, as in the days of Lot”… as written.
SEPARATE… to allow destruction is the pattern.

CLEAR direction to fulfill prophesy, and supported by ALL the end time prophets. NOT “visions from God” like the pretrib rapture, that false Christ’s promote as salvation for their flock.
Excuse me; THE LORD… will separate the sheep from the goats…NOT MAN !!! OK ?

Anyway…already Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are planning to flee BEFORE the destruction …as it was at 66-70 AD. (The original Church of Messiah… Jew and gentile). Another miracle end time sign is that many Jews in Israel today accept Jesus as Lord ! The sudden rise of Messianic Jews and many Christians too now accepting our Lord’s Jewish roots. The sudden rise of Messianic Gentiles. End time sign's for sure.

JESUS is a JEW remember …”the lion from the tribe of JUDAH”. HIS followers then… are grafted into the tribe of JUDAH, as “The scepter shall not depart from JUDAH”. Gen 49;10
Never forget your everlasting ROOT , my friend ! Romans 11all, h 17-22.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

OK… lets be generous now, and consider this situation please;

IF a pre trib rapture is correct , “we”( the exodus great crowd) will have already fled to the worldwide wilderness anyway, to live God’s WAY! So then… “we” will be raptured from there. Cool huh !!!
IF the pretrib is wrong, ”we” will be in God’s “place of safety” in the wilderness…BUT you guys will be IN the great tribulation. NOT so cool for you huh !!!

So… when you see you are suffering and witnessing huge deaths and even loss of family and friends… you can flee to us… “the mountains of the house of YHWH” … IF you survive.

Isaiah 2. ASV
2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah (Messiah’s flock Jew and Gentile) and Jerusalem (holy land where our Lord returns to).
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of YaHWeH’s house shall be established [SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]on the top of the mountains (worldwide), and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YaHWeH,(Woldwide Kingdom of God), to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth [SUP][[/SUP][SUP]b[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]the law, and the word of YaHWeH from Jerusalem. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And he will judge [SUP][[/SUP][SUP]c[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.[SUP]5 [/SUP]O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of YaHWeH.

OR… read about your fate IN the great tribulation at v 6-22 and SEE how v19-21 is exactly Rev 6, 6[SUP]th[/SUP] seal.

No hard feelings… as you have chosen to be misled. Chosen to follow “the broad and spacious road that leads to destruction”, OR you are RICH and love satan’s way enslaving the poor.
However…you ALL are invited to join the narrow path to TRUTH… by FAITH with WORKS by OBEYING our Messiah and King.

Please you (FAITH alone) believers in the pretrib rapture, don’t waste your time TRYING to prove it true on this thread. WE ALL have studied this lie thoroughly including tracing it’s beginning from the false prophet John Dalby 1830.
To OBEY our Lord is wise, AND we have ONE leader only… YESHUA (Jesus).
Peace be with you all.

Shalom my friend’s (or enemies)
………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Usefull EXODUS information ;
Introduction to Messianic JEWS who care for Christians, SEE; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSbXkGf1kT0
Introduction to Messianic Gentile SEE ; New2Tora
Introduction to pretrib false prophets already exposed by false pretrib date setting etc,
John Darby 1830;
Modern influences of Darby include Dallas Theological Seminary, Bob Jones University, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack Van Impe and Harold Camping, the Scofield Reference Bible.
Darby's Rapture theology has infected almost every conservative protestant church.

 

[Nehemiah6]

EXODUS or RAPTURE… before the great tribulation ?

This one Scripture refutes any idea of an exodus (John 14:1-3)

​

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where is the God the Father's house? In Heaven where His throne is.

Where is the Lord Jesus Christ at present? In Heaven at the right hand of the Father.

So where will He take His saints? The answer is obvious.

 

[Allenbee]

"Where is the Lord Jesus Christ at present? In Heaven at the right hand of the Father".

Of course He is in heaven at present!!! Are you forgetting HE comes back to earth immediately after the great tribulation ?

"Where is the God the Father's house? In Heaven where His throne is".
Yes it is but the earth is to be HIS too, as at creation. Isaiah 66; "Where is the house you people can build for me, the heavens are my throne and the earth is my footstool"
After our Lord's Millennial reign... the tent of God will be with mankind. Rev 21; 3-4. NB; MANKIND is flesh and blood and not spirit as those in heaven.

"So where will He take His saints? The answer is obvious".

Yes HIS saints or "chosen ones" do go to heaven. But scripture shows the righteous and meek inherit the earth.
Ps 37;9-11 and 29, but read ALL of this end time prophesy h;v40. READ the sermon on the mount to SEE the two destinies
Math 5; 1-11,hv5

 

[Allenbee]

From our Lord Jesus then… like it or not;
“flee to the mountains” starts the end time Exodus and is WRITTEN in your Bible at Math 24;16, and written directly before the Great tribulation. Surely to be obeyed !

“OH NO”... scream the city Churches, then we loose our tithe !!!
Sooooo… “they” promote the pre trib rapture which is NOT written in OUR LORD’S instructions at Math 24.
However there IS a gathering of His CHOSEN ONES “immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” !

This false teaching of a pretrib rapture is nothing but a manipulative compilation of scriptures to “tickle the ears” of the rich and comfortable in Satan's world, and a sure death trap promoted by “false Christ” Church leaders . These “leaders” want to keep mankind enslaved in Satan’s world for as long as possible, so they can continue living in luxury by stealing GOD’S tithe. True story… as ALL religions REFUSE to even debate “flee to the mountains” or “fly to the wilderness”.

So…forget churches, study the Bible yourself to join the fast growing Exodus flock today. We agree to OBEY OUR LORD to flee the worldwide destruction of Satans cities (Babylon the great city). Simple and - TRUE.
By example; ONLY our Lord’s believers survived by fleeing Jerusalem at 66-70 CE. This is the pattern from our God of ORDER.
Supported by; “as in the days of Noah, as in the days of Lot”… as written.
SEPARATE… to allow destruction is the pattern.
CLEAR direction to fulfill prophesy, and supported by ALL the end time prophets. NOT “visions from God” like the pretrib rapture that false Christ’s promote as salvation for their flock.
Excuse me; THE LORD… will separate the sheep from the goats…NOT MAN !!! OK ?

Anyway…already Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are planning to flee BEFORE the destruction …as it was at 66-70 AD. (The original Church of Messiah… Jew and gentile). Another miracle end time sign is that many Jews in Israel today accept Jesus as Lord ! The sudden rise of Messianic Jews and many Christians too now accepting our Lord’s Jewish roots. The sudden rise of Messianic Gentiles.

JESUS is a JEW remember …”the lion from the tribe of JUDAH”. HIS followers then… are grafted into the tribe of JUDAH, as “The scepter shall not depart from JUDAH”. Gen 49;10
Never forget your everlasting ROOT , my friend ! Romans 11all, h 17-22. Christians are the branches and the root is Jew (JUDAH).

 

[maverich]

I have a question for you, what is 1 thess 4: 17 18 talking about, specially 18, let this bring you comfort,
your msg doesn't bring comfort, so then what is paul saying

also Jesus is the vine, which would mean he is also the root, and I am the branch, scripturally relevant, yes

also in the days of noah men were exceedingly wicked, men weren't evil.
they were if you will stupid,

I told my wife i was setting fire to the house with her in it, if she survived, i would love her forever

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Allenbee,

From our Lord Jesus then… like it or not;
“flee to the mountains” starts the end time Exodus and is WRITTEN in your Bible at Math 24;16, and written directly before the Great tribulation. Surely to be obeyed !

You forgot the beginning of the verse that you quoted above which says "those in Judea, flee to the mountains."

When interpreting scripture, it is important to read the entire context in order to come to a right conclusion. That said, notice that the holy place within the temple is mentioned, the Sabbath and fleeing to Judea which will be the result of the "abomination" being set up in the holy place. This is clearly speaking about Israel and her temple during the middle of that last seven years, when the antichrist causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination.

Therefore this information has nothing to do with the church, who will have previously been gathered, but with Israel. For that last 3 1/2 years is the time of Jacob's trouble, when the antichrist who will be empowered by the beast who comes up from the Abyss, who will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

This information is synonymous with Rev.12:6,14 when the woman (Israel) flees out to that place prepared for her by God where she will be taken care of for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.

However, there will be believers in Christ on the earth during that time who are referred to as "the great tribulation saints," which are Gentiles who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. This group are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17.

Furthermore, scripture states that believers in Christ within the church are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that Jesus would keep believers "out of" that time of wrath (Rev.3:10).

Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, because Christ already suffered God's wrath for every believer, satisfying it completely.

Therefore, the church must be removed from the earth prior to that first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

By the way, the separation of the sheep and the goats has to do with the great tribulation saints who make through the time of God's wrath alive and not the church.

"They (the nations) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Those who will have been resurrected, changed and caught up, will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.[/quote]

Those who will have been resurrected, changed and caught up, is that army who will be following the Lord out of heaven wearing her fine linen, white and clean, which she is seen receiving at the wedding of the Lamb, in heaven, and will be wearing that same fine line when she follows the Lord out of heaven.

All that you are doing above is misapplying scripture to fit your belief.

 

[TMS]

"Where is the Lord Jesus Christ at present? In Heaven at the right hand of the Father".

Of course He is in heaven at present!!! Are you forgetting HE comes back to earth immediately after the great tribulation ?

"Where is the God the Father's house? In Heaven where His throne is".
Yes it is but the earth is to be HIS too, as at creation. Isaiah 66; "Where is the house you people can build for me, the heavens are my throne and the earth is my footstool"
After our Lord's Millennial reign... the tent of God will be with mankind. Rev 21; 3-4. NB; MANKIND is flesh and blood and not spirit as those in heaven.

"So where will He take His saints? The answer is obvious".

Yes HIS saints or "chosen ones" do go to heaven. But scripture shows the righteous and meek inherit the earth.
Ps 37;9-11 and 29, but read ALL of this end time prophesy h;v40. READ the sermon on the mount to SEE the two destinies
Math 5; 1-11,hv5

When you read the last chapters the book (bible) it explains how it will finish.
you will twist it, but it is plain.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
I go and prepare a place for you = A place in Heaven.
I will come again, and receive you unto myself = come where (to heaven???) Come to earth and receive the saved.
that where I am, there ye may be also. = where i am, is that earth or heaven? if it is earth we don't go anywhere if it is heaven, Jesus takes the saved back to heaven.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

When do the saints that have been with Jesus for a thousand years in heaven come back to the Earth? if their home is in the new Jerusalem then it will be after the earth is made new.

There is only two resurrections and scripture says that when Christ comes the first resurrection will happen.

 

[Allenbee]

Hello awatukee
Thanks for your educated reply unlike some.

Nope my friend... I know Math 24 very well and all of it.

Yes... "then let those in Judea flee to the mountains" of course applies to Messianic Jews in Israel today, as does the abomination being set up in the holy place apply to Judea (Israel),but don't you see v14; the good news of the Kingdom preached worldwide ? Now that is done by Christians worldwide...not Jews. Do you also see that the great tribulation is worldwide too. So obviously, believers in Jesus who are in Judea today must "flee to the mountains" as instructed to do, and as the tribulation is worldwide so we too flee worldwide. To each country's wilderness, as our Lord's rule is to be worldwide.

WHAT pre trib rapture AT Math 24 ? Show the verse number please !

Judea is the holy land and central to end time prophesy...even our Lord returns to Judea. Does that mean all Christian's who are worldwide and not in Judea are excluded from our Lord ? OR from HIS instruction to flee the worldwide destruction ON Satan's cities to cleanse the earth for the Eden God created it for ?

Joel 2 is just one of so many prophecies showing the RESULT of "flee to the mountains" OR "flies to the wilderness".

"before us a garden of Eden...behind us a desolate waste"
Now try fitting a pretrib rapture to that, OR to all the many prophesied blessings, as we exodus Satan's Babylon, and start the promised land !!!

YES... that is the result of OBEYING our Lord as ALL the end time prophets prove.
FAITH with WORKS.

 

[Allenbee]

OK… lets be generous now.
IF a pre trib rapture is correct , “we”( the exodus great crowd) will have already fled to the worldwide wilderness anyway, to live God’s WAY! So then… “we” will be raptured from there. Cool huh !!!
IF the pretrib is wrong, ”we” will be in God’s “place of safety” in the wilderness…BUT you guys will be IN the great tribulation. NOT so cool for you huh !!!
So… when you see you are suffering and witnessing huge deaths and even loss of family and friends… you can flee to us… “the mountains of the house of YHWH” … IF you survive.
Isaiah 2. ASV
2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah (Messiah’s flock Jew and Gentile) and Jerusalem (holy land where our Lord returns to).
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of YaHWeH’s house shall be established [SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]on the top of the mountains (worldwide), and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YaHWeH,(Woldwide Kingdom of God), to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth [SUP][[/SUP][SUP]b[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]the law, and the word of YaHWeH from Jerusalem. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And he will judge [SUP][[/SUP][SUP]c[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.[SUP]5 [/SUP]O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of YaHWeH.
OR… read about your fate IN the great tribulation at v 6-22 and SEE how v19-21 is exactly Rev 6, 6[SUP]th[/SUP] seal.
No hard feelings… as you have chosen to be misled. Chosen to follow “the broad and spacious road that leads to destruction”, OR you are RICH and love satan’s way enslaving the poor.
However…you ALL are invited to join the narrow path to TRUTH… by FAITH with WORKS by OBEYING our Messiah and King.
Please you (FAITH alone) believers in the pretrib rapture, don’t waste your time TRYING to prove it true on this thread. WE ALL have studied this lie thoroughly including tracing it’s beginning from the false prophet John Dalby 1830.
To OBEY our Lord is wise, AND we have ONE leader only… YESHUA (Jesus).
Peace be with you all.
Shalom my friend’s (or enemies)

Useful EXODUS information ;
Introduction to Messianic JEWS who care for Christians, SEE; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSbXkGf1kT0
Introduction to Messianic Gentile SEE ; New2Tora
Introduction to pretrib false prophets already exposed by false pretrib date setting etc,
John Darby 1830;
Modern influences of Darby include Dallas Theological Seminary, Bob Jones University, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack Van Impe and Harold Camping, the Scofield Reference Bible.
Darby's Rapture theology has infected almost every conservative protestant church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes... "then let those in Judea flee to the mountains" of course applies to Messianic Jews in Israel today, as does the abomination being set up in the holy place apply to Judea (Israel),but don't you see v14; the good news of the Kingdom preached worldwide ? Now that is done by Christians worldwide...not Jews.

Regarding the good news being preached worldwide, please consider the following:

"Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

The preaching of the good news may also be what the 144,000, who will come out of Israel as those acknowledging Jesus as their Messiah, will be doing during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. I don't believe that the church will be on the earth during that time.

WHAT pre trib rapture AT Math 24 ? Show the verse number please !

Exactly! It is not mentioned there and that because Matt.24 will be events which take place after the church has been gathered. For example, we know that the time period is seven years in length. In verse 15 Jesus makes mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place, which marks the middle of the seven years. Therefore, from verse 15 thru 31 covers the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, with Jesus returning to end the age in verse 31. The church most certainly could not be on the earth at the setting up of the abomination, because that would put the church through the seals and trumpet judgments of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

The gathering of the church is simply not mentioned in Matt.24, because it has to do with that last seven years in which the wrath of God will be in operation, ergo, we can't be here.

If you will notice in Revelation, the word ekklesia translated church is used throughout chapters 1 through 3. Within those same chapters you will not find the word hagios translated as saints. Likewise from chapter 4 onward you will see the word hagios/saints but you never see the word Ekklesia/church anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath. The reason for this is that, the church is seen prophetically to be called up to heaven in chapter 4:1, which is prior to the first seal being opened.

Whatever way you slice it, because believers in the church have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God and because Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely, then we cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which begins with the first seal being opened.

 

[FeedtheMachine]

I've read that an estimated 70 million Christians have been martyred for their faith since the first century AD and that this number is increasing by approximately 100 000 every year...maybe someone should tell the half billion Christians living under persecution in the world today that they need not worry...they will be taken away and not suffer tribulation...or maybe we are "better Christians" here in the "free world" that we would be "chosen" to escape this. "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." - Matthew 24:9. ​I am glad this does not apply to us!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I've read that an estimated 70 million Christians have been martyred for their faith since the first century AD and that this number is increasing by approximately 100 000 every year...maybe someone should tell the half billion Christians living under persecution in the world today that they need not worry...they will be taken away and not suffer tribulation...or maybe we are "better Christians" here in the "free world" that we would be "chosen" to escape this. "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." - Matthew 24:9. ​I am glad this does not apply to us!

Greetings FeedtheMachine,

Those Christians that have been persecuted and killed from the on-set of the church and those currently who are suffering the same, is a result of the persecutions and tribulations that Jesus said believers would suffer because of their faith in him, which comes at the hands of the world and the powers of darkness.

However, what is quickly coming is the unprecedented wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which believers are not appointed to suffer and which Jesus rescues us from (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9). It is the wrath of God that we are not appointed to suffer. those that you mentioned above have not nor are they currently suffering the wrath of God.

It's important to understand who is being addressed in the context.

 

[FeedtheMachine]

Hi Ahwatukee

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood" - Rev 6:9-12

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" - Rev 6:17 (I understand this to mean that the wrath of God has not arrived up to this point.

Revelation 7:1-8 - the 144 000 are sealed.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Revelation 7:9-14

I am not arguing or trying to change your point of view with regard to this topic. If you choose to believe that we will be raptured before the tribulation, then you have every right to believe so. From different Scriptures I believe however that we will not be raptured before the tribulation.

Having said that, I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose from the dead. I believe that when I came to repentance and accepted His gift of salvation I was saved and I believe that I will spend eternity in His presence. If I should be raptured before the tribulation I will praise Him for sparing me the agony and the pain. If I do not get raptured I will be ready and willing to die for His Name and I will praise Him in my afflictions and I will praise Him for deeming me "worthy" enough to suffer for Him as He had suffered for me.


If there should be a tribulation though from which we are not saved, how many fellow brothers and sisters who believe we will be taken away, will still love Him while they are being tortured for their faith and how many will become angry because they believed that He would spare them the suffering?

Every time I read about Jesus warning us that we will be hated for His Name and we will be killed for His Name I take that literally because why would I be spared such persecution while billions throughout history have suffered? What makes me different and why would I receive different treatment? What did Jesus mean when He said that those who endure to the end will receive a Crown? Is our faith tried and tested when things go according to "plan" or is it tested and do we grow when we face adversity? Do you know that Christianity in the West is in a decline? We have been afforded all the blessings in the "free world" to worship our God and our numbers are dwindling. The places where more people are being saved are all in places where there is severe persecution.

I have often read about the struggles of Christians living under oppression and persecution. If you read in Acts how the Church grew by thousands in a single day (and this while they were being persecuted) and how the Church grew during other periods of severe persecution. Based on this historic pattern (and this is only my opinion) I believe that the great tribulation will not be a punishment, but rather a blessing, because if history has a tendency to repeat itself, I can only imagine how many millions will come to salvation when true Christianity reveals the love of Christ while enduring the most horrific tribulation and truly displaying the teachings of Jesus (love your enemy, bless those that curse you, turn the other cheek etc etc) in a way that will reflect the love of Christ.

Blessings brother.

 

[tanakh]

Hello awatukee
Thanks for your educated reply unlike some.

Nope my friend... I know Math 24 very well and all of it.

Yes... "then let those in Judea flee to the mountains" of course applies to Messianic Jews in Israel today, as does the abomination being set up in the holy place apply to Judea (Israel),but don't you see v14; the good news of the Kingdom preached worldwide ? Now that is done by Christians worldwide...not Jews. Do you also see that the great tribulation is worldwide too. So obviously, believers in Jesus who are in Judea today must "flee to the mountains" as instructed to do, and as the tribulation is worldwide so we too flee worldwide. To each country's wilderness, as our Lord's rule is to be worldwide.

WHAT pre trib rapture AT Math 24 ? Show the verse number please !

Judea is the holy land and central to end time prophesy...even our Lord returns to Judea. Does that mean all Christian's who are worldwide and not in Judea are excluded from our Lord ? OR from HIS instruction to flee the worldwide destruction ON Satan's cities to cleanse the earth for the Eden God created it for ?

Joel 2 is just one of so many prophecies showing the RESULT of "flee to the mountains" OR "flies to the wilderness".

"before us a garden of Eden...behind us a desolate waste"
Now try fitting a pretrib rapture to that, OR to all the many prophesied blessings, as we exodus Satan's Babylon, and start the promised land !!!

YES... that is the result of OBEYING our Lord as ALL the end time prophets prove.
FAITH with WORKS.

We dont have a wilderness in the UK to flee to so things will be tough. We do have Mountains in Wales and Scotland but
those living in Southern England will have several hundred miles to flee through before they reach them including myself.

Also didn't Jesus say that if someone says he is in the Desert don't go there or doesnt the desert count as a wilderness?

Besides all that Jesus was warning his own generation, those he was speaking to not to people living 2000 years later The disaster hepredicted happened in their generation in AD 70 many took his warning seriously and saved their lives. Reading the Bible in context avoids many false ideas and speculations.

Another point I take issue with is where you said many City Churches are preaching the Pre Trib Rapture. That may be true where you come from but a huge number of Christians world wide don't believe in it

 

[Allenbee]

Hello feed the machine
The machine must be the brain huh !
I agree fully with what you say here to Ahwatukee;

I am not arguing or trying to change your point of view with regard to this topic. If you choose to believe that we will be raptured before the tribulation, then you have every right to believe so. From different Scriptures I believe however that we will not be raptured before the tribulation.

Having said that, I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose from the dead. I believe that when I came to repentance and accepted His gift of salvation I was saved and I believe that I will spend eternity in His presence. If I should be raptured before the tribulation I will praise Him for sparing me the agony and the pain. If I do not get raptured I will be ready and willing to die for His Name and I will praise Him in my afflictions and I will praise Him for deeming me "worthy" enough to suffer for Him as He had suffered for me.

Well said fella, so seeing we don't really know, why not consider what we do know.
Satan is the ruler of the earth, and what a mess and hell it is today... "man not knowing the way out" as prophesied.
Nearly all the population of the earth are just slaving to survive, with billions starving and dying through famine and wars, millions fleeing man made hell, and even nuclear war looming!!! The rich who enslave man think Satan's world is great though.

Do any of you reading this agree that there really is a great tribulation and God's reason and target for this wrath is to totally destroy Satan's way (Babylon). Satan's "lofty towers" concrete jungle, and polluting factories AND do away with the rich enslaving the poor ??? Well !!! ...do you agree or do you love Satan's way ?

So...if your house is alight... flee out, if Babylon is to be destroyed...flee out.
The ONLY clear instruction...is "flee to the mountains", and it is PERMANENT.

The Church in the wilderness. "The voice in the wilderness"

Repeat; "before us a garden of Eden, behind us a desolate waste" in the day of cloud and thick gloom"...end time prophesy.
Joel 2,3 ALL.

 

[Allenbee]

Hello Tanaka

In reply to your comments;

We dont have a wilderness in the UK to flee to so things will be tough. We do have Mountains in Wales and Scotland but
those living in Southern England will have several hundred miles to flee through before they reach them including myself.

Also didn't Jesus say that if someone says he is in the Desert don't go there or doesnt the desert count as a wilderness?

Besides all that Jesus was warning his own generation, those he was speaking to not to people living 2000 years later The disaster hepredicted happened in their generation in AD 70 many took his warning seriously and saved their lives. Reading the Bible in context avoids many false ideas and speculations.

Another point I take issue with is where you said many City Churches are preaching the Pre Trib Rapture. That may be true where you come from but a huge number of Christians world wide don't believe in it

Well... "flee to the mountains" is not to be done individually.Too dangerous and not written, as there's security in numbers and if these evil cowards of satan find you alone, they will kill you..."because of my name". It is a religion (nation actually) that flees worldwide as communes (Ekklisias) as it was at AD 66-70. Jew and Gentile who believe in Jesus...so Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentiles called Christians today.

So...search for the greater Exodus believers near you, and when more than 1000 then plans can be made even if it's not near. You do know money will be worthless in the GT, so to me; rather use it wisely and collectively buy wilderness land and set up there as self-sufficient communes. The Amish have there own towns and are no part of satans world, and have lived this way for hundreds of years so why cant we ? NO... unlike the Amish we will be like a Messianic Kibbutz, keeping all God's laws and statutes, and especially celebrating the in-gathering festival of booth's...FREE from the mark of the beast.
Near the end of 7 years we will be surrounded by the evil... this is Armageddon. God's war.
What happens in Israel happens worldwide, as Jesus is a Jew from the tribe of JUDAH. Everlasting covenant.
We gentiles are grafted into JUDAH and are worldwide, as our Messiah's rule... is to be worldwide for shure.

So back to nature and blessed by JAH as that is GOD'S WILL for mankind AND the eventuality under our Messiah's reign. Full stop.

NO Sir...the great tribulation at Math 24 was DEFINITELY not fulfilled at AD 70, unless you believe that was worldwide.
Please do read from v 20 to 22.

Hope this helps my friend.
Do not believe man...believe and OBEY our Lord, so its good to see you are a private Bible student.

Yes I do lump "we all going to heaven" types with pretrib skywalkers.
I'm earthly, and would love to see and share this beautiful creation worldwide.(I been locked in factories since 16).

 

[heartofdavid]

Basically,Moses is a type of the first coming,Joshua a type of the second coming.

The exodus was into the wilderness. I suspect that is the reason postribs can't get any traction off of the plagues.

But since there is zero evidence of a supposed post trib rapture,I find it difficult to understand any attraction to that concept.

 

[Allenbee]

Heartofdavid says;
"But since there is zero evidence of a supposed post trib rapture,I find it difficult to understand any attraction to that concept".

Zero evidence ??? What is this then at Math 24;29-31. Please read that as I doubt you have.
Highlighting; Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days. That is post trib.
"Then gather His chosen ones"... is the rapture.

Truth is; you have zero evidence of support of a supposed pre trib rapture.