Pre-Post-Mid Trib

[Guardian1970]

Brothers and Sisters,

When it come to us searching and seeking it is well we do so. It is also good to keep our eyes open and look for the season and signs.

When is Christ is going to come back, this should not cause hate, division or spite amoung the family. Or cause any to depart for that matter.

For God has taken His talents and spread them out to many. So that In searching for the truth we may bring those talents (truth and wisdom God has given) together at the table, share it and gain more. Do you seek His wisdom like a treasure? To know Him is to know the Truth. Therefore be not angry, judgmental and spiteful when searching for the truth. Judge not the messenger when one believes they have a talent to share, together as a family listen to what is being said and judge it against the Word of God. Yet do this with love and reverence. For He has taken wisdom, and hidden it from the wise. That we may in seeking His wisdom, by coming together to seek all truths as a family. None above the other, for unless you share how can anyone else receive? Least any man boast he holds all talents/truths.

When will he come back, I think we can all agree we see the season approaches. So what now? Jesus said keep watch, so that you are not caught off guard. How can we be caught off guard? By living in the flesh instead of the Spirit. For chasing things of the world instead of chasing the will of God.

It is written tomorrow is not promised you! Therefore live each day as it is your last. This means keep watch, stay on guard. Live in the Spirit and not the flesh. For you know not the hour and the day of your masters return.

There is also a parable about how a servant began to eat and drink with drunkards for his master was delayed. Read and understand if it is Gods will.

Therefore keep watch, stay on guard. Spread the gospel. Keep the commandments and live by the Spirit in Love with God, to honor God. Not by the flesh for your own glory. Nor can you stay Holy and live in the flesh. Just as the parable teaches the lesson of above. Do not worry about when he is coming, for we all know He is. Rather worry about communing with Him everyday by the Spirit. With each other Godly love and driendship. Seeking His will, so tha you will not be caught of guard.

Love to you brothers and sisters in the Christ

 

[Guardian1970]

Corrected/finished, sorry I hit send before it was done. Hand held devices oops

Brother and Sisters,

When it come to us searching and seeking it is well we do so and we should. It is also good to keep our eyes open and look for the season and signs.

When is Christ going to come back, this should not cause hate, division or spite amoung the family. Or cause any to depart for that matter.

For God has taken His talents and spread them out to many like the stars. Each accordingly to their ability brought forth by faith. So that In searching for the truth, which we should do, we may bring those talents (truth and wisdom God reveals to us) together to the church table, share it and gain more. Do you seek His wisdom like a treasure? To know Him is to know the Truth. Therefore seek Him, His Will, and His Wisdom. He will reveal Himself to those He chooses. Giving you a talent to share.. so that you may give Him praise, inorove the health of the body. Giving you and the family a deeper faith!!

Therefore be not angry, judgmental and spiteful when searching for the truth. Judge not the messenger when one believes they have a talent to share, together as a family listen to what is being said and judge it against the Word of God. Yet do this with love and reverence. For He has taken wisdom, and hidden it from the wise. That we may in seeking His wisdom, by coming together to seek all truths as a family. None above the other, for unless you share how can anyone else receive? Least any man boast he holds all talents/truths.

When will he come back, I think we can all agree we see the season approaches. So what now? Jesus said keep watch, so that you are not caught off guard. How can we be caught off guard? By living in the flesh instead of the Spirit. For chasing things of the world instead of chasing the will of God.

It is written tomorrow is not promised you! Therefore live each day as it is your last. This means keep watch, stay on guard. Live in the Spirit and not the flesh. For you know not the hour and the day of your masters return.

There is also a parable about how a servant began to eat and drink with drunkards for his master was delayed. Read and understand if it is Gods will.

Therefore keep watch, stay on guard. Spread the gospel. Keep the commandments and live by the Spirit in Love with God, to honor God. Not by the flesh for your own glory. Nor can you stay Holy and live in the flesh. Just as the parable teaches the lesson of above. Do not worry about when he is coming, for we all know He is. Rather worry about communing with Him everyday by the Spirit. With eachother, a Godly love and friendship. Seeking His will, so that you will not be caught off guard.

Love to you brothers and sisters in the Christ

 

[Bogadile]

I agree, now what do we do with the people who say the rapture already happened in the 1st century? Wayy outside of Orthodox Christianity.

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

Posting only to get it on my list. These threads are among the most fascinating to read.

 

[Blain]

The arguing and bickering among the church about his return is a very powerful tool the enemy uses. I like to keep my heart open to learning and not have my views and beliefs set in stone when it comes to things like this. I think a pre wrath rapture is more likely than anything but I also believe it is far more important to have our hearts prepared than it is to be right about how or when it will happen. I mean many thought they knew how the Christ would come and bring salvation didn't they? They expected a warrior like David but instead he came as a lamb and a servant.

We humans have a tendency to think we know how things are going to go down and are even willing to kill for that belief but often times we end being surprised because after all his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The arguing and bickering among the church about his return is a very powerful tool the enemy uses. I like to keep my heart open to learning and not have my views and beliefs set in stone when it comes to things like this. I think a pre wrath rapture is more likely than anything but I also believe it is far more important to have our hearts prepared than it is to be right about how or when it will happen. I mean many thought they knew how the Christ would come and bring salvation didn't they? They expected a warrior like David but instead he came as a lamb and a servant.

We humans have a tendency to think we know how things are going to go down and are even willing to kill for that belief but often times we end being surprised because after all his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.

Good day Blain,

I would have to disagree with you regarding this. We are told that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Paul taught and contended for the teaching of the resurrection of the dead and the changing and catching up of the living church. These two events go hand in hand and will take place almost simultaneously, with the dead rising first and then the living being changed and caught up. There were two men, Hymeneus and Philetus, who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Regarding this, Paul said that it was godless chatter, that this teaching would spread like gangrene, that they had wandered away from the truth and that by this teaching they were destroying the faith of some. (2 Tim.2:16)

It was the same for the Thessalonian. There were some who were teaching that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him had already taken place. They were rightfully concerned because if the gathering of the church had already taken place, then they knew from Paul's teaching that what was to follow was the rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness followed by God's wrath.

Today we have those who are trusting in the promises of the Lord, that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Chirst rescues us from the coming wrath and that he would keep believers out of that time of trial. In verse 18 of 1 Thes.4, after Paul gives an outline of the dead being raised and the living being changed and caught up, he then says, "therefore comfort one another with these words." The opposition takes that comfort away! Paul, in writing to Titus also referred to the appearing of our Lord as "our blessed hope," while the opposition has the church going through God's wrath, which would be no blessed hope at all.

We, according to the promise, are looking for the Lord's imminent appearing to gather the church prior to his wrath, which begins with the opening of the first seal. The opposition is looking for the appearing of the antichrist and the church going the wrath of God.

My point in all of this is that, this is not some insignificant issue where both parties are considered to be in Christ regardless of their belief and teaching. Therefore, those who are teaching that Christ has already returned and that the resurrection has already taken place, fall under the same banner as Hymeneus and Philetus in that it is goddless chatter and they have wandered away from the truth. In addition, by their teaching that all end-time events have taken place at the destruction of the temple, the promises of the Lord would only be applied to the first century church, with the second century and the church up to this very day being left out of those promises.

They have been deceived and are deceiving and it is detrimental to eternal life, just as all false teachings are.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I agree, now what do we do with the people who say the rapture already happened in the 1st century?

You can't do anything with them. But you can certainly tell them "Sorry to see you got left behind!"

 

[Nehemiah6]

The arguing and bickering among the church about his return is a very powerful tool the enemy uses

Agreed. Arguing and bickering are unnecessary and unchristian. At the same time Christians need to be properly taught about the coming of Christ for His saints, since it has always been IMMINENT-- (1) at any moment (2) without any signs and (3) without any warning.

Therefore every Christian must be ready to meet the Lord in the air and then stand before the judgment seat of Christ and receive the rewards they deserve (or forfeit them). The fact of the matter is that Christians are not being encouraged to diligently labor in the harvest field and disciple new believers as they should. That should be a part of the preparation for the unexpected return of Christ for the Church.

Actually, connecting the Resurrection/Rapture (since it is all one event) with the Tribulation is a device of the Enemy, since nothing in Scripture connects the two things. The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are for the unbelieving and the ungodly. On the other hand the Rapture is for those who are "in Christ" and it could occur either just seven years before the Tribulation or even sooner than that. The point is to be ready, not discuss the Tribulation. Enoch was not debating the Flood when he was taken up and taken out (translated).

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5).

Strong's Concordance

metatithémi: to transfer, change​

Transliteration: metatithémi
Short Definition: changed

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from meta and tithémi
Definition
to transfer, change
NASB Translation
changed (1), deserting* (1), removed (1), taken (1), took (1), turn (1).

 

[MattforJesus]

The Bible is the most popular book ever,and many people believe the entire Bible is truth,and many believe it has partial truth,and many have doubts concerning the Bible,so they do not go against it,and say,it could be true,so it is better to leave it be.

Like when the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Jesus,and they came back empty handed,and they said,why did you not take Him,and they said,because no man spoke like this man,which Jesus cast doubt in their mind,so they said we better leave Him alone,for if He is telling the truth we do not want to go against God.

Other religions believe it has truth,even Muslims,but interpret according to their religions,the occultists according to their beliefs,the prejudice according to their beliefs,and so forth.

What to do,what to do,which the world is basically scared of the Bible,for many believe it has truth,and many have doubts and leave it alone.

The pre-tribulation resurrection is the most popular interpretation of the Bible,among people claiming Christ,and many of the world go by that teaching concerning Christianity.

There is mid-trib,and post-trib,beliefs,but the pre-trib is the most popular,and the one the world will most likely give heed to as the interpretation of the Bible.

There is no pre-trib resurrection,and when it does not happen it will overthrow the faith of many,and because it did not happen,the world will say,now we know for sure the Bible is not true,for the resurrection did not happen,and now we are not in doubt about the Bible,and can move on and forget the fundamental teachings of it that has been taught,and away they go with the New Age movement,and their interpretation of the Bible.

And they will know when the 7 years period starts,for the man of sin will establish peace in the Middle East,and the Gentile nations will come together,and say Peace and safety,and they will try to establish peace on earth.

There is no pre-trib resurrection for the world can repent,and receive salvation,for the first three and one half years,so the saints will remain on earth.

The saints are on earth when the beast claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period,for He blasphemes God,and His people,which He would not have to do that if the truth were not on earth by way of the saints.

And the saints are given in to the beast's hands for the last three and one half years.

There is only 2 resurrections.1 before the millennial reign of Christ,and 1 after the millennial reign of Christ,not 1 resurrection of the saints pre-trib,and 1 resurrection post-trib.

Paul was clear concerning all the saints,that it is after the man of sin claims to be God,but then the saints are given in to his hands for the last three and one half years.

People keep preaching pre-trib,but there is no pre-trib,and that is the interpretation the world will acknowledge,and when it does not happen it will overthrow the faith of many,and the world will say,now we know the Bible is not true,and can move on,and forget the teachings of it that has been taught for many years,and the new age movement was right,the Bible is about spiritual evolution through nature,not about following a personal God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no pre-trib resurrection for the world can repent,and receive salvation,for the first three and one half years,so the saints will remain on earth.

From the 4th chapter to the 18th chapter of Revelation you will not find a single mention of the word "church" or "churches". Why, because the Church is not present on earth while God pours out His judgments on the unbelieving and the ungodly. That is very conclusive proof of the Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

Furthermore, in John 14:1-4 the Lord Jesus Christ did NOT say "Let your hear be troubled, since you will go through the Tribulation". Quite the reverse. Every mention of the Rapture speaks of "comfort" not tribulation and trouble.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

 

[Persuaded]

From the 4th chapter to the 18th chapter of Revelation you will not find a single mention of the word "church" or "churches". Why, because the Church is not present on earth while God pours out His judgments on the unbelieving and the ungodly. That is very conclusive proof of the Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

Furthermore, in John 14:1-4 the Lord Jesus Christ did NOT say "Let your hear be troubled, since you will go through the Tribulation". Quite the reverse. Every mention of the Rapture speaks of "comfort" not tribulation and trouble.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

So how do you explain I Corinthians 15:52 where Paul say that the resurrection of the dead and and those alive being changed take place at the LAST TRUMP?

 

[Guardian1970]

I agree, now what do we do with the people who say the rapture already happened in the 1st century? Wayy outside of Orthodox Christianity.[/QUOTE

Very interesting and good question! Rapture/harpazo or "snatching away". I don't know if that word was used in the original text to describe this situation in Matthew 27:52. This seems to say resurrection from sleep.

Matthew 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

It did happen. Yes. Even the thief on the cross, who would be with him in paradise!


It will happen again, first the dead in Christ shall rise. The Saints before could not be "in Christ" until he fulfilled the law. They were saints of the old law.

Now what is another good question is. How did a man in the flesh and not in Christ hear Gods voice then?

Since Christ, the word of God, by him all things where created. He stated before Moses was. I Am. Then how did these saints and the prophets of old hear the voice of God? How did Enouch? How did Noah?

Isaiah 63:10-11--But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11--Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

To do His will. Christ has been and always will be the intercession for man. He has at command by the Father at specific times given certain men (chosen) to have within them The Holy Spirit. To bring forth His word and teaching to His people. Performing great wonders and signs. So that they may believe He is God. For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

This was one of many foreshadowings of what was to come. How God would take what was given to few (the Spirit) and for one nation and one people. To all nations and all people.

Why do I say God sent the old saints the Holy Spirit. He tells you himself. Because Jesus completes the foreshadowing by fulfilling the law that now ALL who believe in the Son of God shall receive this same Spirit. That will make you of one mind and one will. With a lot less confusion amoung the brethren. If we all have the same teacher. The teacher then tells one believer a truth to share. Then another two. Being of one Spirit the coucnelor will provide them the ability to discern if this of God or not.

Mark my words brothers and sisters , truly I tell you, as the fact we are in the flesh therefore we are susceptible to fault. Angels sent by God to minister to us at times can whisper in our ears. job 4:12 A word was secretly brought to me, my ears caught a whisper of it. So also can the agents of the devil do the same. Therefore the family must test the messsage by the word and ask for discernment by the Holy Spirit. Coming into agreement either to accept it, or reject it as coming from God or the great deceiver of man.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Since the book of revelation and the other writings written later, they all speak of his return. That is a separate situation. This again was a foreshadowing. There was his glorification by God and resurrection and assertion to his throne next to the Father. This was the fulfillment of the old law and created the everlasting blood covenant. All others speak of His return. Therefore there is no confusion.

Love, your brother in Christ

 

[Nehemiah6]

So how do you explain I Corinthians 15:52 where Paul say that the resurrection of the dead and and those alive being changed take place at the LAST TRUMP?

Christians need to be crystal clear that there are two sets of trumpets:

(1) for those who are saved. they summon the saints home or summon them to Christ and

(2) those who are lost, the unbelieving and the ungodly, they face the seven trumpet judgments of the 7th seal.

So the last trumpet judgment (announced by the "seventh angel") pours out God's wrath upon the earth(Rev 10:7-19:4), whereas the "last Trump" (which is also called the Trump of God) as in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16, is to summon the Church home (to Heaven).

[Note :The Resurrection/Rapture should be seen as one event, with the resurrection preceding the Rapture, and all of this is a moment of time.] This is a stupendous supernatural event which will be hidden from the world, since it is strictly for the saints.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So how do you explain I Corinthians 15:52 where Paul say that the resurrection of the dead and and those alive being changed take place at the LAST TRUMP?

Greetings Persuaded,

The on-going error is the belief that the "Last Trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 is synonymous with the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments. The only thing that these two have in common is the word "Trumpet" and nothing else.

There are many different types of trumpets mentioned throughout scripture that represent different events. The seven trumpets are judgments of wrath and have no blessings associated with them. No where in or around the context of the 7th trumpet is anything mentioned in regards to the gathering of the church. The only thing these two verses have in common is the word "trumpet." The only reason that people interpreted the 7th trumpet as being the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52, is because it is the last trumpet in the set of seven and that is the only reason.

An even greater problem with this interpretation is that, by interpreting the 7th trumpet as the "last trumpet" and therefore where the church would be gathered, it would put the church through all of the seals and the trumpets judgments of God's wrath, which scripture says that we are not appointed to suffer.

 

[Rainrider]

The arguing and bickering among the church about his return is a very powerful tool the enemy uses. I like to keep my heart open to learning and not have my views and beliefs set in stone when it comes to things like this. I think a pre wrath rapture is more likely than anything but I also believe it is far more important to have our hearts prepared than it is to be right about how or when it will happen. I mean many thought they knew how the Christ would come and bring salvation didn't they? They expected a warrior like David but instead he came as a lamb and a servant.

We humans have a tendency to think we know how things are going to go down and are even willing to kill for that belief but often times we end being surprised because after all his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.

I agree. having seen the argument on all 3 sides, I can see a down side to them all. If one sets their heart on not being here for the trib, then one day find out they are still here, faith could be lost. So it is wise to face the fact that we really don't know the answer. Get our hearts right, and build on our faith so that we can withstand even the deception of Satan himself.
Like may on here, I have grown sick of the discourse found on here. This thread I do hope doesn't end up cough up in that.

 

[Persuaded]

Christians need to be crystal clear that there are two sets of trumpets:

(1) for those who are saved. they summon the saints home or summon them to Christ and

(2) those who are lost, the unbelieving and the ungodly, they face the seven trumpet judgments of the 7th seal.

So the last trumpet judgment (announced by the "seventh angel") pours out God's wrath upon the earth(Rev 10:7-19:4), whereas the "last Trump" (which is also called the Trump of God) as in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16, is to summon the Church home (to Heaven).

[Note :The Resurrection/Rapture should be seen as one event, with the resurrection preceding the Rapture, and all of this is a moment of time.] This is a stupendous supernatural event which will be hidden from the world, since it is strictly for the saints.

There is no Scripture proof that there are two sets of trumps, one for the saved and one for the lost.
That is your opinion so as to support what you believe.

 

[Persuaded]

Greetings Persuaded,

The on-going error is the belief that the "Last Trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 is synonymous with the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments. The only thing that these two have in common is the word "Trumpet" and nothing else.

There are many different types of trumpets mentioned throughout scripture that represent different events. The seven trumpets are judgments of wrath and have no blessings associated with them. No where in or around the context of the 7th trumpet is anything mentioned in regards to the gathering of the church. The only thing these two verses have in common is the word "trumpet." The only reason that people interpreted the 7th trumpet as being the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52, is because it is the last trumpet in the set of seven and that is the only reason.

An even greater problem with this interpretation is that, by interpreting the 7th trumpet as the "last trumpet" and therefore where the church would be gathered, it would put the church through all of the seals and the trumpets judgments of God's wrath, which scripture says that we are not appointed to suffer.

That is your opinion that can not be supported by Scripture.
You believe last does not really mean last, like you believe that when Jesus said great tribulation, He really meant wrath.
Why can you not accept what the Scripture clearly teaches.

 

[Jackson123]

Bible Made Simple: Where the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory Came From and Why You Shouldn’t Believe It

read this link.

pre trib doctrine originally from Jesuit priest Fransisco Ribera. He make this doctrine to protect papacy. Reformer like Martin believe papacy is antichrist. To counter this believe, Jesuit make this doctrine.

 

[heartofdavid]

Bible Made Simple: Where the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory Came From and Why You Shouldn’t Believe It

read this link.

pre trib doctrine originally from Jesuit priest Fransisco Ribera. He make this doctrine to protect papacy. Reformer like Martin believe papacy is antichrist. To counter this believe, Jesuit make this doctrine.

Ironically no pretrib adherents ever heard of your theory untill you guys made it up.

Try to be factual.

 

[valiant]

From the 4th chapter to the 18th chapter of Revelation you will not find a single mention of the word "church" or "churches". Why, because the Church is not present on earth while God pours out His judgments on the unbelieving and the ungodly. That is very conclusive proof of the Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

you will not find the church mentioned in Revelation, only churches. But references to overcomers are common.