Using God and the bible to deify American/Western values

[Calmador]

Nobody thinks you're applauding genocide when you correctly note that an army knew how to fight a war. The Soviet Union was equally brutal, but it's impossible to read about the battle of Stalingrad without being moved by Russian courage. Men can be wrong and still be amazingly willing to die for their children. They were still human beings.

Boldness is certainly not just a Western value. The human race universally admires it.

I was re-reading your post and I noticed something. The bolded part stuck out. That alone is admirable. Men being willing to die for their children. At the very least that's up for discussion for something we should be moved by. I'm only skeptical because scripture says that God is the only source of goodness.

But, you only prove my point in that sentence. Power/technology/courage being used to something right may be worthy of admiration.

It's impossible for me to be "moved" by the courage of a cop killer. The only "moving" that happens when I think of a cop killer overcoming his or her fear against the wrath of the law is the "moving" of righteous anger and pity.

 

[RamahDesjardin]

Please stop putting words in my mouth, and please stop insinuating that my position enables terrorism. I never once said that power was more (or even equally) important as righteousness. What you're talking about is, after all, righteous instead of morality. Many atheists have good morals. We admire all sorts of "good people" throughout history even though they rebelled against God and gave credit to themselves for being so good.

As far as God is concerned, an atheist like Thomas Paine would have no greater righteousness than an atheist like Vladimir Lenin. Both of them died in their sins. It's hard for us to swallow that the nicest sinner is just as spiritually dead as a Nazi, but it's true. Even if they die for their children, they are dying in sin.

So what shall we do? Is any virtue worth admiration among unbelievers?

 

[Calmador]

But it's an excellent start. A lot of Christians are timid about many things, especially about sharing the Gospel and inviting others to come to church meetings and hear the preaching. They need encouragement to be bold, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The other area where boldness is required is when the world, the Left-Liberals, and the atheists gang up against Christians and mock their faith.

1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,

2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

3And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.

4Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

5And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,

6And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.

7And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead,even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

13Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:1-13).

I do not think you are looking at the bigger picture. You are looking at this in a specific context. I agree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being bold with and in God's word, the gospel. Yes, boldness with a God given purpose is good.

The problem is when boldness alone is valued as if it were a moral virtue. That is false because criminals can be bold.

The scripture you just quoted (verse 13) can be used to TRY to support the idea that boldness is a moral virtue, but that's so false because boldness in that verse was being used for a good purpose, God's purpose.

Yes, boldness in the gospel.

No, to boldness being valued as a moral virtue in itself.

 

[Calmador]

The translation you are quoting from is somewhat different than the translation I use, however faith requires one to believe all things, not that all things are true but unless you know the principle which that would either establish the truth or falsehood of the matter then one would need to search and make inquiry regarding the matter. Of course, the time to give up is when you there is no substance to support believing that something could be true.

However, it is written in the translation I use as follows:

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

Since the son of David is the author of Ecclesiastics, then maybe you can look to the Proverbs which consist primarily the writings of the son of David also.

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words. Proverbs 23:8

To understand the context of the morsel of sweet words.
6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
Proverbs 23


Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; Prov 20:17

I'm not sure what you mean by bringing up the verses. It seems you are in agreement with me by emphasizing the words, get and lose by underlining them?

"Of course, the time to give up is when you there is no substance to support believing that something could be true. "

^ I agree. That is why mantras such as having a "never give up" attitude be false. The time to give is when there is no substance to believe something that is not true.

 

[Calmador]

Boldness is an admirable trait, and we see it throughout the Bible. We see it in the testimonies of Christians across the world. David and Goliath, how bold was David to face a giant? Yet his confidence didn't reside in himself but rather God who stood with him. The battle is the Lords.

So you see, boldness comes when you realize who is with you. God Almighty, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and the Spirit of the Lord. What fear ought to take place in your heart when yet the One who holds true power is for you? Boldness then is praiseworthy as it often accompanies faith. The two in unison? A force to be reckoned with.

What if it were the other way around? What if Goliath that was the youth who faced the giant warrior who believed in the one true God?

In that example Goliath would be the admirable one. In fact, in some sense Goliath could be infinitely admirable to face not only a giant, but God himself.

Think about Lucifer. He was perhaps the boldest of the bold to stand up to God. If you value boldness so much.. or more so than most other traits or values then by that logic you would have to praise Lucifer.

I bolded part of your post. The bolded section is what I think truly matters. Boldness maybe has some value, but like I showed you above, it is not enough.

Money, strength, power, courage... meaningless without God. Worthless without God's ways of goodness.

 

[Calmador]

Please stop putting words in my mouth, and please stop insinuating that my position enables terrorism. I never once said that power was more (or even equally) important as righteousness. What you're talking about is, after all, righteous instead of morality. Many atheists have good morals. We admire all sorts of "good people" throughout history even though they rebelled against God and gave credit to themselves for being so good.

As far as God is concerned, an atheist like Thomas Paine would have no greater righteousness than an atheist like Vladimir Lenin. Both of them died in their sins. It's hard for us to swallow that the nicest sinner is just as spiritually dead as a Nazi, but it's true. Even if they die for their children, they are dying in sin.

So what shall we do? Is any virtue worth admiration among unbelievers?

Okay, maybe I read you wrong. I'm not putting words in your mouth though. I'm fleshing out a possible line of thought from what I thought you were saying. You are defensive against me... That's the nature of your posts. I take the stance that righteousness is more important than power/technology/courage. I don't think its unreasonable for me to think you were taking the opposite stance.

Let's be clear... if we both think that righteousness is more important and like I said before that power/technology/courage can be admired alone, then in what do you disagree with me?

I do not admire atheists. I do not believe they do good things or righteous things. If there is anything good about atheists or anyone for that matter then it is from God. Or as scripture says... God calls them "dirty rags." I personally argue that the good deeds only look like good deeds. True good deeds are perfect and from God.

Good is perfection and there is nobody on earth that does perfection except for God. So, the goodness that you are recognizing are shadows of true goodness.

As for the difference between a "good" atheist and a "bad" atheist... I believe in degrees of sin. I don't know for sure. I think talking about "good" or "bad" atheists is going off into a tangent.

Also, when an atheist or anyone does something good or how I view it... in the likeness of good then thank God for it because God has written the law in the heart of the atheist and all mankind. Without this law in the heart, they would not be able to even think of it.

Romans 2:14-15

[SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


^ Thank God that atheists and all mankind were given the law in their hearts.