Using God and the bible to deify American/Western values

[Calmador]

The title says it all. I sometimes suspect and definitely think that American/Western values are upheld and deified by the use of God or the bible.

I have heard pastors talk a lot about boldness. I even heard the term "Godly boldness", "You just need to be more bold with your faith." Or how about talking down about ideas such weakness? The bible clearly claims that weakness is strength.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for the sake of Christ, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong

In American/Western culture... and probably other cultures as-well, strength is not itself always good.

Our culture says, "never give up"... God says there's "a time to give up" or in other translations, there's "a time to lose."

Ecclesiastes 3:6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away,

^ It's not hard to understand this if you think about HOW people "never give up." If you are never giving up... it's because you have confidence in yourself to be able to do anything. That's you relying on yourself. Something as simple as asking you, "Can you be a good person by yourself if you keep trying and never give up?"

There's also fear. Culture screams... "fear is bad" or even evil. Yet, the bible claims that the beginning of wisdom is fear in the Lord. Yes, love casts out all fear. But, that does not take away that there is a good kind of fear, the fear of the Lord.

Thoughts? Do you know anymore places where culture is being deified?

 

[Calmador]

So, it's not just pastors. It can come from individual Christians who uphold cultural values so high... that they forget that weakness is strength.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have heard pastors talk a lot about boldness. I even heard the term "Godly boldness", "You just need to be more bold with your faith."

Well actually boldness goes all the way back to Joshua and Gideon, and all the way forward to Peter and the apostles, so there is nothing unbiblical about it.

Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest (Joshua 1:7)

14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.
16 And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me. (Judges 6:14-17)

 

[Calmador]

Well actually boldness goes all the way back to Joshua and Gideon, and all the way forward to Peter and the apostles, so there is nothing unbiblical about it.

Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest (Joshua 1:7)

14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.
16 And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me. (Judges 6:14-17)

Joshua 1:5-7

[SUP]5 [/SUP]No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their ancestors to give them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]“Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go.

I think being strong and courageous here has a God given purpose and that Joshua is suppose to be strong and courageous about God... not himself.

I think being "strong and courageous" are neutral. A thief... a murderer can be strong and courageous in themselves to do bold and evil things. If that strength and courage is in yourself, then can be an evil strength or courage. A worthless strength and courage. Confidence in yourself does not mean you'll do well, both pragmatically and/or morally. History has shown this with Nazi Germany, regarding the morality side. They believed they were superior in a way (racists) that we understand is morally wrong. They were not admirable for their courage or boldness in war. They were evil, just a powerful evil.

Shouting "be strong and courageous" is not good enough. That's too open.

 

[Blain]

Well in the normal cultural view a man crying is a sign of weakness and i admit I don't like to show my tears in front of people but sometimes i just don't care and let the tears flow because I am a sensitive person and many have thought I was gay when they first meet me but I am that i am and I am not is gay.

Is it really weakness to show you have a heart?

 

[RamahDesjardin]

Actually, evil regimes are admired and studied for their boldness throughout history. More of our technology has come from the Nazis than we care to admit. They lost the war, but the also changed the world.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Joshua 1:5-7] Shouting "be strong and courageous" is not good enough. That's too open.

But it's an excellent start. A lot of Christians are timid about many things, especially about sharing the Gospel and inviting others to come to church meetings and hear the preaching. They need encouragement to be bold, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The other area where boldness is required is when the world, the Left-Liberals, and the atheists gang up against Christians and mock their faith.

1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,

2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

3And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.

4Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

5And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,

6And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.

7And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead,even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

13Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:1-13).

 

[graceNpeace]

No culture in the world can be held up as an example of a Godly culture!
Every culture needs to reform itself according to the principles of Scripture.
Furthermore, Christianity is not a matter of ethnicity or national identity, so to expect any culture to represent Godly values (to the point of being a valid example) is a pipe-dream, since Christians are a minority in every culture in which they are represented.
(I am not talking about census statistics here - in Australia for example over 80% of the population identify themselves as Christian for census purposes, however only 6% have EVER been in a church, and only about 1% regularly attend a church.)

It reminds me a dear Christian friend I had in South Africa - he was a British citizen living in South Africa. The first time anybody tried to preach the Gospel to him his outraged response was, "Of course I'm a Christian, I'm British!"
Later on, to his credit, he realised that to be a Christian, one not only needs to born (a citizen) but also born-again (to be citizen of heaven).
He became an effective evangelist because he realised that one's cultural background, for better or for worse, does not hold for anything in Kingdom terms!

 

[oldethennew]

often, loss is great gain...it's never about 'self', when we live for Christ...

 

[RamahDesjardin]

But it's an excellent start. A lot of Christians are timid about many things, especially about sharing the Gospel and inviting others to come to church meetings and hear the preaching. They need encouragement to be bold, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The other area where boldness is required is when the world, the Left-Liberals, and the atheists gang up against Christians and mock their faith.

Christians will throw each other under the bus quicker than anyone else.

 

[MattforJesus]

But it's an excellent start. A lot of Christians are timid about many things, especially about sharing the Gospel and inviting others to come to church meetings and hear the preaching. They need encouragement to be bold, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The other area where boldness is required is when the world, the Left-Liberals, and the atheists gang up against Christians and mock their faith.

Let us have the boldness of Christ,for we can have the Spirit also.

Joh 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.
Joh 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
Joh 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Jesus spoke so boldly that the officers came back empty handed,for Jesus cast doubt in their mind,and they said to each other,He might be telling the truth,so we better leave Him alone for if He is speaking the truth we do not want to go against God.

Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Christians will throw each other under the bus quicker than anyone else.

You've made a very good point.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (Mt 24:10-12)

 

[Calmador]

I would also add in... The western idea of not caring about what others think of you. And also, you yourself defining yourself or you yourself making your own criteria up. In part, this has to do with individuality. I think it's clear in scripture that this can be sinful. Scripture such as "love your neighbor as you would yourself." The good Samaritan is also a good example of not just minding your own business, but minding other's business. Scripture that says that we should not stumble our brother or we should even do our best to avoid even the appearance of evil. Perhaps there are certain times to just think of yourself, but even that has to be done with respect and submission to a particular other's thoughts, God's thoughts.

 

[Calmador]

Well in the normal cultural view a man crying is a sign of weakness and i admit I don't like to show my tears in front of people but sometimes i just don't care and let the tears flow because I am a sensitive person and many have thought I was gay when they first meet me but I am that i am and I am not is gay.

Is it really weakness to show you have a heart?

I think it is a weakness to show what you have in your heart. But, it is a weakness I'm willing to show and bare. For example, telling a girl you like her and being vulnerable (weak) to her rejection. I believe love is a weakness. And I also believe that in our western culture... that just cannot be accepted because anything that is weak is bad or evil, by western man philosophy.

I think it's clearly a weakness in that you're evidently showing what hurts you. That's why we cry, something physically or soulfully hurt us. Losing a loved one... a break up... those hurt and that's why we cry. We are vulnerable when it comes to love or care about something. It is definitely not necessarily unGodly to cry. If it was... then why did Jesus cry? John 11:35 Jesus wept.

This is the complicated in that I think we as Christians have to work with our cultures.

I believe in part... we do need to be aware of these false cultural beliefs to an extent, not acknowledge them as God's word, but just be aware and even use them. Paul said... 1 Corinthians 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. So, for the sake of souls, we could use cultures for the sake of winning souls. So, if not crying is necessary then let's not cry for their sake.

 

[Calmador]

Actually, evil regimes are admired and studied for their boldness throughout history. More of our technology has come from the Nazis than we care to admit. They lost the war, but the also changed the world.

I will grant you that power and technology can be admired alone.

The problem is admiring the Nazis. The implications is that the immorality part is included. I think it's only proper that when we are addressing power being used for evil, that this combination should always be looked down upon.

They changed the world of technology and they also changed the world by murdering a lot of innocent people. What takes a priority when you see the actual full picture? It be better that the Nazis never did the evils they did than for the world to gain all the technology they produced.

 

[RamahDesjardin]

I will grant you that power and technology can be admired alone.

The problem is admiring the Nazis. The implications is that the immorality part is included. I think it's only proper that when we are addressing power being used for evil, that this combination should always be looked down upon.

They changed the world of technology and they also changed the world by murdering a lot of innocent people. What takes a priority when you see the actual full picture? It be better that the Nazis never did the evils they did than for the world to gain all the technology they produced.

Nobody thinks you're applauding genocide when you correctly note that an army knew how to fight a war. The Soviet Union was equally brutal, but it's impossible to read about the battle of Stalingrad without being moved by Russian courage. Men can be wrong and still be amazingly willing to die for their children. They were still human beings.

Boldness is certainly not just a Western value. The human race universally admires it.

 

[Zmouth]

Ecclesiastes 3:6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away,

^ It's not hard to understand this if you think about HOW people "never give up." If you are never giving up... it's because you have confidence in yourself to be able to do anything. That's you relying on yourself. Something as simple as asking you, "Can you be a good person by yourself if you keep trying and never give up?"

The translation you are quoting from is somewhat different than the translation I use, however faith requires one to believe all things, not that all things are true but unless you know the principle which that would either establish the truth or falsehood of the matter then one would need to search and make inquiry regarding the matter. Of course, the time to give up is when you there is no substance to support believing that something could be true.

However, it is written in the translation I use as follows:

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

Since the son of David is the author of Ecclesiastics, then maybe you can look to the Proverbs which consist primarily the writings of the son of David also.

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words. Proverbs 23:8

To understand the context of the morsel of sweet words.
6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
Proverbs 23


Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; Prov 20:17

 

[BenFTW]

Boldness is an admirable trait, and we see it throughout the Bible. We see it in the testimonies of Christians across the world. David and Goliath, how bold was David to face a giant? Yet his confidence didn't reside in himself but rather God who stood with him. The battle is the Lords.

So you see, boldness comes when you realize who is with you. God Almighty, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and the Spirit of the Lord. What fear ought to take place in your heart when yet the One who holds true power is for you? Boldness then is praiseworthy as it often accompanies faith. The two in unison? A force to be reckoned with.

 

[prove-all]

Paul Johnson, A British historian wrote an article titled “No Law Without Order,
No Freedom Without Law.” In it he wrote, “oth in Virginia and in New England
to the north, the colonists were determined, God-fearing men, often in search of a
religious toleration denied them at home, who brought their families and were
anxious to farm and establish permanent settlements.

They put political and religious freedom before riches .… Thus took shape the
economic dynamo that eventually became the United States—an experiment
designed to establish the rule of God on Earth …”

-

In his First Inaugural, President George Washington said, “The foundations of our
national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality.”

In his famous Farewell Address he said, “Of all the dispositions and habits which
lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.”

Washington knew that without religion and morality, the American experiment was
doomed to fail. John Adams backed him up: “Statesmen may plan and speculate for
liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon
which freedom can securely stand.” Religion and morality are firmly rooted in divine law.

-
In 1954, Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote, “I believe the entire Bill of Rights
came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it.”

What political or religious leaders today would make such statements as these men did?

The Constitution is the foundation of our republic. And the Ten Commandments were,
in many ways, the foundation of the Constitution.

 

[Calmador]

Nobody thinks you're applauding genocide when you correctly note that an army knew how to fight a war. The Soviet Union was equally brutal, but it's impossible to read about the battle of Stalingrad without being moved by Russian courage. Men can be wrong and still be amazingly willing to die for their children. They were still human beings.

Boldness is certainly not just a Western value. The human race universally admires it.

This is what I call western prejudicsm. Sadly, the way your thinking could very well have been the path for the greatest evils in the world. Racism... the KKK ... the Natzis seemed to admire superiority and power too and focused on it. You have to make a priority of morality. This is why in part people cannot see the evils of Trump... because after all he shows "strength."

It's childish at this rate.

I think it's great that you can separate power/technology/courage from the immoral intentions. But, when we talk about an event that INCLUDES immoral intentions. You don't separate that just because you can. The fact of the matter is that power/technology/courage can and has been used for evil.

For starters, I don't admire the Nazis for their courage to do evil. I don't admire a murderer for his or her courage to murder. I don't admire a rapist's strength for overpowering a woman to rape. It is definitely not universal. No, you have it all wrong. I'm not moved by courage in the full picture, the full reality of certain powers/courage has been used. That's just men mustering up strength for evil... in a way it's even more degrading because they're trying so hard to do evil.

Boldness might not be solely a western value. But, I wanted to be specific because that's what I've experienced.