FOR ALL YOU ARIANS, UNITARIANS AND OTHERS THAT DENY JESUS CHRIST IS GOD?

[bluto]

If you deny the deity of Jesus Christ then by extension you deny that He preexisted His incarnation as a man. And when I say you deny His "deity" I am not talking about Him simply being divine. I'm talking about Him being God who became flesh according to John 1:1-14.

So here is the question? Since you believe the Son never eternally existed His incarnation as a man then why is the Son clearly identified or presented as the Agent of creation? Or to put it another way, If the "Son" has not eternally existed with and personally distinct from the Father then why is the Son presented as the Agent of creation, that is, the Creator?

Please note John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 not only by the Apostles but by His own Father?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

If you deny the deity of Jesus Christ then by extension you deny that He preexisted His incarnation as a man. And when I say you deny His "deity" I am not talking about Him simply being divine. I'm talking about Him being God who became flesh according to John 1:1-14.

So here is the question? Since you believe the Son never eternally existed His incarnation as a man then why is the Son clearly identified or presented as the Agent of creation? Or to put it another way, If the "Son" has not eternally existed with and personally distinct from the Father then why is the Son presented as the Agent of creation, that is, the Creator?

Please note John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 not only by the Apostles but by His own Father?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

What happened dagallen, bronson, jaybird and others that deny that Jesus Christ is God? No answer?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

Still no answer from dagallen, bronson or jaybird to the following question?

If you deny the deity of Jesus Christ then by extension you deny that He preexisted His incarnation as a man. And when I say you deny His "deity" I am not talking about Him simply being divine. I'm talking about Him being God who became flesh according to John 1:1-14.

So here is the question? Since you believe the Son never eternally existed His incarnation as a man then why is the Son clearly identified or presented as the Agent of creation? Or to put it another way, If the "Son" has not eternally existed with and personally distinct from the Father then why is the Son presented as the Agent of creation, that is, the Creator?

Please note John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 not only by the Apostles but by His own Father?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Zmouth]

So are you asserting that if one denies that the man you know as Jesus, born of woman, was the eternal God incarnated in the flesh, is of their father the devil?

Then if the man you know as Jesus, who was born of woman, was not the eternal God incarnated in the flesh, then would you agree that it would be you that is doing the lust of your father the devil?

I ask because it is written that you shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure. After all six is to one as half a dozen is the other.

[video=youtube;wnVnE-wOXJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnVnE-wOXJs[/video]

 

[bluto]

How zmouth do you come to the conclusion from my post when you said this: So are you asserting that if one denies that the man you know as Jesus, born of woman, was the eternal God incarnated in the flesh, is of their father the devil?" that I believe that Jesus Christ is of their father the devil?

Can you explain that because I am saying the "EXACT" opposite. The point of this thread is to show you people that IF you deny that Jesus Christ is God and He DID NOT preexist His incarnation as a man then how could He be the AGENT of creation like the Bible says at John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14? This is what the Apostles said and what Jesus' own Father said. And your no Val Kilmer huckleberry hound?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Zmouth]

How zmouth do you come to the conclusion from my post when you said this: So are you asserting that if one denies that the man you know as Jesus, born of woman, was the eternal God incarnated in the flesh, is of their father the devil?" that I believe that Jesus Christ is of their father the devil?

Can you explain that because I am saying the "EXACT" opposite. The point of this thread is to show you people that IF you deny that Jesus Christ is God and He DID NOT preexist His incarnation as a man then how could He be the AGENT of creation like the Bible says at John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14? This is what the Apostles said and what Jesus' own Father said. And your no Val Kilmer huckleberry hound?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Well if you are going to claim that if a person doesn't believe that Jesus was God incarnate then in your opinion they are obviously are denying the truth of the scriptures, correct?

So Christ is the Son of God correct?

As far as being a huckleberry hound

[video=youtube;96jkQ7kJohs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96jkQ7kJohs[/video]

 

[Enoch987]

An Arian will say that Jesus is the Word of God that God spoke to create. My question to you the Trinitarian is how do you interpret Luke 9:35 (NIV not KJV) "This is my chosen son" and Hebrews 1:8-9 which the anonymous author quotes Psalms 45:8-9 to say that Jesus was anointed from his companions. My interpretation is Jesus was chosen from the other sons of God and then anointed before In the beginning. John 1:14, Jesus is the only Son who took on flesh to dwell among us. Before "In the beginning" there was eternity, so it is correct to quote John 1:1 "In the beginning Jesus was the Word of God and was God and was with God" but it is incorrect to say that Jesus is the God the Son from eternity. The Creeds are 80% accurate in my opinion.

 

[Zmouth]

My question to you the Trinitarian is how do you interpret Luke 9:35 (NIV not KJV) "This is my chosen son" and Hebrews 1:8-9 which the anonymous author quotes Psalms 45:8-9 to say that Jesus was anointed from his companions.

A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."

Of course the cloud is referring unto the firmament, called heaven, that the LORD covered the earth with as written in Job 38:9, "When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it." Which is evident in Mark 1:11, "And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." As well as in Luke 3:22 it is written, "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said,
Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." Thus in John 8:58 it is written, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, Verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Before "In the beginning" there was eternity, so it is correct to quote John 1:1 "In the beginning Jesus was the Word of God and was God and was with God" but it is incorrect to say that Jesus is the God the Son from eternity. The Creeds are 80% accurate in my opinion.

Since the Spirit of God and the Word of God and the Holy Ghost are one, the LORD, who is the only begotten Son of the eternal God, one might consider the passage in 1 Corinthians 12:3, "Wherefore I give you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of God called Jesus accursed; and that no man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

 

[Enoch987]

Yes, before Abraham, Jesus is the I AM. What about "Everything I have has been given to me by the Father." That's in John.
The I AM statement started when the LORD showed himself to Moses at the burning bush that was not consumed. Do you think that I deny the LORD is the "I AM"? There are 3 persons (beings if you like) in the Godhead in Isaiah 7-10 and Jeremiah 50-51. They are the LORD God of hosts, the LORD of hosts and the Holy One of Israel.
Zmouth, what you have done is quoted bible verses that support the Trinity and the Creeds but you have not explained the verses I cited (Jesus was chosen and anointed from his companions). Chosen and anointed don't fit the Trinitarian model.

 

[wattie]

Jesus forgives sin in the 3rd person... i.e.. I get into an argument with someone.. we get into a fight.. its rough.. we hurt eachother.. then Jesus steps in from outside the fight and says 'I forgive you'

Only God can do that.

And Jesus accepted worship.

And Jesus could modify nature to create new things by His miracles.

And the Jewish concept of agency..has a messenger being of equal standing to the person giving him the message to send...

Jesus did things 'by the hand of the Father' ..'in the name of the Father' .. the Father and Jesus are 'one'..

You know what that kind of sayings would sound like to the Pharisees?

Blaspheme!

John_10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Also..

When Jesus says 'the Father is greater than I'

This isn't the Father being an ontologically superior being.. it's that the Father.. is in a greater POSITION. The Father is in heaven.. Jesus on earth at the time He said that.

And then shortly after this.. we read that Jesus ASCENDS to heaven to be with the Father.

If I say the president is greater than me.... the president is not a superior being.. we are both human.. but he is in a greater position.

There you go

 

[Zmouth]

Yes, before Abraham, Jesus is the I AM.

"....Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

So if Jesus is the Son of the living God, our LORD, then if you want to reduce the LORD to the image of a man of flesh then that is your choice, yet it is written in the scroll of Isaiah, "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." [42:8]

The I AM statement started when the LORD showed himself to Moses at the burning bush that was not consumed.

Might want to re-read your scriptures.

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." Genesis 17:1

Before Abram was I am.

What about "Everything I have has been given to me by the Father."

"... for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:20"

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

 

[bluto]

Well if you are going to claim that if a person doesn't believe that Jesus was God incarnate then in your opinion they are obviously are denying the truth of the scriptures, correct?

So Christ is the Son of God correct?

As far as being a huckleberry hound

[video=youtube;96jkQ7kJohs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96jkQ7kJohs[/video]

I don't think you understand my questions zmouth? I am saying that the Arians, Unitarians and other groups do "NOT" believe that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as a man. And along with that belief it is also true that they deny Jesus Christ is God.

So having said that I would like to know how is it that Jesus is identified or presented as the Agent of creation? How is it that God the Father used Jesus Christ to create all things by Him and for Him according to John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 if He never preexisted in the first place?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Nehemiah6]

So are you asserting that if one denies that the man you know as Jesus, born of woman, was the eternal God incarnated in the flesh, is of their father the devil?

Then if the man you know as Jesus, who was born of woman, was not the eternal God incarnated in the flesh, then would you agree that it would be you that is doing the lust of your father the devil?

And what exactly is it that you are trying to prove? So do you or do you not believe that Jesus is God? Those who reject the deity of Christ are indeed of their father the Devil.

 

[bluto]

An Arian will say that Jesus is the Word of God that God spoke to create. My question to you the Trinitarian is how do you interpret Luke 9:35 (NIV not KJV) "This is my chosen son" and Hebrews 1:8-9 which the anonymous author quotes Psalms 45:8-9 to say that Jesus was anointed from his companions. My interpretation is Jesus was chosen from the other sons of God and then anointed before In the beginning. John 1:14, Jesus is the only Son who took on flesh to dwell among us. Before "In the beginning" there was eternity, so it is correct to quote John 1:1 "In the beginning Jesus was the Word of God and was God and was with God" but it is incorrect to say that Jesus is the God the Son from eternity. The Creeds are 80% accurate in my opinion.

Ok enoch, the "Word" who is identified at John 1:1 as being with God and as being God is not the "spoken" word of God. That's why at John 1:1 it says, "And the Word was with God and the Word was God. If your with someone who are logically not that someone.

Besides, Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." God does not have to use "literal" words to create anything, all He has to do is just think it and it's created. Not only that but regarding what the JW's may say God says at Isaiah 44:24, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

Since this is true then why does God need Jesus Christ as the "Agent" of creation? Look at John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him and APART from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." So how do you reconcile enoch God saying He created everything by Himself and by Him alone with Jesus creating all things?

To answer your other questions from Hebrews 1:8 you have God the Father saying His Son is God and not only the angels are suppose to worship Him we are too. You also said this, "My interpretation is Jesus was chosen from the other sons of God and then anointed before In the beginning." Where in the Bible did you get this idea from? I know for a fact that the Mormons teach that Jesus Christ was chosen over Satan to be the Savior of the world, is that where you got it from enoch? And yes, the creeds are accurate and you said only 80% is accurate. Please tell which 20% is inacurate in your opinion? :eek;

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto