Seriously What is Up With This

[RexCA]

Menno Simons was a RCC priest, and he was told not to read the Bible, he didn't have advanced enough training! But he wondered about the Eucharist and transubstantiation and infant Baptism, searched for them in the Bible and could not find them. So, He started reading the Bible, and found, to his surprise how much of what he had been taught, and was doing as priest contradicted the Bible. So he left the RCC, and he is credited with being the founder of the Anabaptists, which includes Mennonites. Although, he never set out to start a new denomination, just to follow Christ.

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Menno_Simons_(1496-1561)

I do hope you hope you have read the story of Martin Luther! Or is that suppressed, too? He had PhDs in theology, taught at a world renowned Catholic seminary in Germany. But he was tormented day and night that he was not saved. His Confessor got tired of hearing the same confessions over and over. Then one day, he read Romans 5:1, and that made him realize the truth!

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[ have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

It isn't necessary to refute every wrong doctrine in the Catholic Church, of which there are many! It is only necessary to read the Bible and it will explain the Plannof Salvation, without catechisms, councils or creeds!

https://www.biography.com/people/martin-luther-9389283

I am actually very familiar with Luther's story again I was raised Lutheran I don't think of him as an inspiration or a model Christian either. As for the other figure you mention I find what you say very hard to believe as the entire liturgy of the hours (the Catholic hourly prayer book for members of the clergy and religious orders) includes not only prayers from the Psalms and other parts of the Bible but also includes a scripture reading every third hour sooo

 

[Snoozy]

i see the cat is out the bag.

catholic praying to saints and mary debunked in one verse:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Snoozy]

church of God u join in an instant, repent believe and u are baptized in like in da book of acts.
catholic church u join in a year u gotta wait a year as second class christian before u can even take communion, unbiblical. u gotta observe their "liturgy"

 

[graceNpeace]

First off I was raised Lutheran I came to the conclusion that sola scriptura is unscriptural by the basis of study not by indoctrination secondly your point about the Church hiding the scriptures is false Latin is was and has been since at least the 5th century been the official liturgical language of the church this is why it was in Latin not to hide the Bible from common people. Beyond that the reason most did not have bibles was because of the fact that mass production of literature did not exist until the 1400s with the printing press even then it was a slow process the printing press was not really modernized nor did most Christians own family bibles until the early 1800s.

You do not give a reason why you feel 'sola scriptura' is false, so I will not comment on that.

Your take on history though is very limited.
There is no doubt that the RCC did limit access to Scripture.
That was not much of a problem in the early centuries following the fall of the Roman Empire in the west.
Literacy was extremely limited during this time - in fact monasteries were likely to be the only place where any collections of books were likely to be found, never mind the Bible itself, and the monks were likely to be the only literate individuals.
Right up until after the time of the invention of the printing press most of the population of Europe was illiterate and access to education was limited by wealth and the RCC.
However as soon as the availability of books, education and literacy improved the RCC vigorously opposed the printing of the Bible and its availability to the masses.
Bluntly put, the RCC had learned well the lesson that knowledge is power and its corollary that denying knowledge to others was also power!
As for latin, in the early centuries latin was fairly broadly understood all across Europe, but over time it also became the preserve of the educated (read the RCC).
As a result a liturgy based on latin gradually became less and less accessible over the centuries...
It took the RCC until the 20th Century to even admit that a liturgy in a language understandable by its congregants was necessary!

The result is that centuries of unchallenged tradition have been so cemented into the RCC that the fact that so much of its doctrine is so hopelessly abiblical cannot be undone....

 

[RexCA]

With regards to Christology, the Catholic Church is completely Orthodox. No one has problems with that. They know who Christ is!

With regards to Soteriology, or how we are saved, the Catholic Church is heretical, because it preaches another gospel on how to be saved. For instance, the 7 sacraments you mentioned in the OP. I assume the word, "sacraments" has something to do with the word, sacred, or sanctification. Except, it is not how we are sanctified, or grow in Christ, according to the Bible!

In fact, Catholics get the order of salvation wrong, with adherents needing to be made holy BEFORE they are justified, or saved. So no one knows if they are saved when they die, everyone ending up needing to be "purified" in purgatory before they are saved. The result, indulgences, masses for the dead, people paying to get their loved ones out of purgatory. Look up purgatory in any concordance, or Bible search, and it isn't there, not even the concept!

Talk about a doctrine enslaving millions which is completely contrary to the Bible! Jesus makes it clear in the story of the rich man named Lazarus, there is only one time to makrpe a decision for Christ, and that is in this lifetime!

Traditions are fine, I suppose, as long as they are 109% rooted in the Bible, and do not contradict it. But until you read the Bible, you won't know how these church dogma contradicts the Bible. You are blindly following traditions, and yet you have never checked out the Bible, to find out what it says!

Everything about this is a very grave misunderstanding of Catholic sacramental theology yes of course a Catholic would understand if he is saved or not when he dies the Church just rejects "once saved always saved" as do many other Christian communities including many Lutherans and Anglicans. The Church teaches grace comes from faith and the sacraments and we grow in faith by making ourselves holier through grace by means of the sacraments. The basis of ones personal growth is based on ones conscience in many ways as if one is a state of mortal sin(an act that separates us from Christ dying in this state leads to damnation) may not take part in the sacraments with the exception of baptism and confession as these sacraments are seen as the healing sacraments that can absolve mortal sin. To take part in certain sacraments namely communion in such a state is a mortal sin and the grace would be void. Indulgences are something completely different indulgences are good works that can be done in order to absolve "venial sin" (veinal sin is sin or unholy attachment that does not separate us from Christ wrong none the less) veinal sin can be absolved through any of the sacraments or an indulgence the concept of "sales of indulgences" is a myth the Church never oked such actions in the middle ages giving donations to certain things such as the building of a church could be an act that one could receive an indulgence this is not in itself problematic the thing is certain individual priests such as Johann Tetzel who Martin Luther feuded with did indeed abuse the system and sell "indulgences" so as a result at the Council of Trent all indulgences involving anything monetary where banned. And no not everyone goes to purgatory those that die in a state of venial sin go to Purgatory before Heaven so their sins may be cleansed before they enter the presence of God everyone in Purgatory will be in Heaven one day. So in short no Catholics are not constantly questioning their salvation unless they are doing things they know to be immoral and in Catholicism salvation is seen as a lifetime process through grace in order to reach holiness your one correct statement is that yes indeed Catholics do reject that people are "saved once and for all" during eathly life

 

[RexCA]

You do not give a reason why you feel 'sola scriptura' is false, so I will not comment on that.

Your take on history though is very limited.
There is no doubt that the RCC did limit access to Scripture.
That was not much of a problem in the early centuries following the fall of the Roman Empire in the west.
Literacy was extremely limited during this time - in fact monasteries were likely to be the only place where any collections of books were likely to be found, never mind the Bible itself, and the monks were likely to be the only literate individuals.
Right up until after the time of the invention of the printing press most of the population of Europe was illiterate and access to education was limited by wealth and the RCC.
However as soon as the availability of books, education and literacy improved the RCC vigorously opposed the printing of the Bible and its availability to the masses.
Bluntly put, the RCC had learned well the lesson that knowledge is power and its corollary that denying knowledge to others was also power!
As for latin, in the early centuries latin was fairly broadly understood all across Europe, but over time it also became the preserve of the educated (read the RCC).
As a result a liturgy based on latin gradually became less and less accessible over the centuries...
It took the RCC until the 20th Century to even admit that a liturgy in a language understandable by its congregants was necessary!

The result is that centuries of unchallenged tradition have been so cemented into the RCC that the fact that so much of its doctrine is so hopelessly abiblical cannot be undone....

I reject sola scripture because it is unfound in the scriptures and it was not a concept in any Christian circles until the 12th century.

 

[p_rehbein]

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[RexCA]

i see the cat is out the bag.

catholic praying to saints and mary debunked in one verse:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This does not contradict intercessory prayer Catholic do not reject his but rather it would be interpreted to mean Jesus is the only being that is both fully God and fully man the fact of the matter is to limit this to mean Jesus is the only being that can pray for us or intercede for us in Heaven would seem to be limiting Christ's role for us in Heaven.

 

[Snoozy]

if u didnt read my earlier posts. i would still like an answer to those so i wil post again but what do we do if sacred tradition contradicts scripture?? we know what the catholics do, go with tradition. BIG MISTAKE!

i see the cat is out the bag.

this was my earlier message:

church of God u join in an instant, repent believe and u are baptized in like in da book of acts.
catholic church u join in a year u gotta wait a year as second class christian before u can even take communion, unbiblical. u gotta observe their "liturgy"

 

[graceNpeace]

I reject sola scripture because it is unfound in the scriptures and it was not a concept in any Christian circles until the 12th century.

And a view of this sort is precisely what draws comparisons with the JW's and others...

 

[Locutus]

Aren't Lutheran churches basically a re-organized Roman Catholicism with the pope removed as the head?

 

[RexCA]

if u didnt read my earlier posts. i would still like an answer to those so i wil post them again but what do we do if sacred tradition contradicts scripture?? we know what the catholics do, go with tradition. BIG MISTAKE!

i see the cat is out the bag.

this was my earlier message:
catholic praying to saints and mary debunked in one verse:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

church of God u join in an instant, repent believe and u are baptized in like in da book of acts.
catholic church u join in a year u gotta wait a year as second class christian before u can even take communion, unbiblical. u gotta observe their "liturgy"

This is false Catholicism does not value tradition over scripture it teaches them to be of equal value and the whole reason I am a Catholic is because I do not see contradiction between scripture and Catholic tradition. Now in Catholic teaching if there were a contradiction between a true interpretation of scripture and some random tradition the false tradition would clearly be thrown out the thing is the Church does not follow false tradition. And when you tell me the "Church of God" is the true church I assume you mean the non-trinitarian Adventist church founded by the families of Benjamin Wilson and Joseph Marsh sometime around 1921 no thank you on that the church is about 1,891 years older than this specific religion this should seem problematic.

 

[RexCA]

Aren't Lutheran churches basically a re-organized Roman Catholicism with the pope removed as the head?

such a statement would anger both Catholics and Lutherans but I'll be fair the answer is no Lutheranism rejects quite a few Catholic doctrines and dogmatic teachings but Lutheranism is the first protestant church (excluding churches coming from Peter Waldo and Jan Hus this was pre reformation in a way) Lutheranism sticks to the 5 solas of the reformation Catholicism does not
Catholicism teaches "transubstantion" the bread and wine literally become the flesh and blood of Christ once consecrated
Lutheranism teaches "consubstantin" the idea that Christ is present within the bread and wine after consecration elements remain the same
theres quite a few more but these would probably the most obvious

 

[Locutus]

Like i said - reorganized RCism.

 

[Snoozy]

This is false Catholicism does not value tradition over scripture it teaches them to be of equal value and the whole reason I am a Catholic is because I do not see contradiction between scripture and Catholic tradition. Now in Catholic teaching if there were a contradiction between a true interpretation of scripture and some random tradition the false tradition would clearly be thrown out the thing is the Church does not follow false tradition. And when you tell me the "Church of God" is the true church I assume you mean the non-trinitarian Adventist church founded by the families of Benjamin Wilson and Joseph Marsh sometime around 1921 no thank you on that the church is about 1,891 years older than this specific religion this should seem problematic.

adventist?? i mean church of God, da one people were baptized into in da book of acts. not some adventist trash.
im a bible believing christian. my point was: why did they join the church instantly in da book of acts but it takes a year to join da catholic church? isnt it against da biblical model clearly?

 

[RexCA]

Like i said - reorganized RCism.

wouldn't all protestant churches to an extent be "reorganized Catholicism" if your gonna define it that way lol

 

[RexCA]

adventist?? i mean church of God, da one people were baptized into in da book of acts. not some adventist trash.
im a bible believing christian. my point was: why did they join the church instantly in da book of acts but it takes a year to join da catholic church? isnt it against da biblical model clearly?

because you need to understand the teachings of the Church I'm sure in the biblical times the apostles taught the people about Christ and what the church teaches before they were accepted into the church regardless what your belief is on the matter this is actually not a fair criticism as most Christian communities have similar procedures

 

[Willie-T]

I should really bite my tongue on this and say nothing but I guess I'll listen to my gut first off the prayer "to" is better worded as a prayer "through" and this is biblical see Revelation 5 "for the prayers of the saints shall go up like a cloud of incense". On the same note why would saints people closer to God than anyone on Earth be incapable of praying to God contrary I think their prayers would be more powerful than those on earth because of their relation to God. Purgatory is also biblical the scriptures say nothing unclean can enter heaven so a saved man would not be permitted to go straight to heaven if he died in sin rather his sins would need to be cleansed this does not contradict the notion of Christ's sacrifice for a few reasons but mostly because of the fact Christ told us to "go and sin no more" as well as the fact that it is written that faith without works is dead the idea that one is saved by faith without doing any good deeds seems nothing short of pure arrogance nor is it scriptural in any sense so basically the saved man who did not suffer for his sin will suffer in purgatory for a short time. And how is baptismal regeneration at all unscriptural the concept of it came straight from Christ's own mouth "no one can enter the kingdom without being born again of the spirit and water." Seems rather self explanatory but yeah...

This is why people are having a problem with your presentation. Well.... ONE of the reasons, because I think at least half of what you said is really off.

But, at any rate, compare this REWRITE of your post. Which do you think can be more easily followed? (Don't waste what you are trying to do here, by making your words too confusing to grasp.)

I should really bite my tongue on this and say nothing. But, I guess I'll listen to my gut.

First off, the prayer being prayed "to" is better worded as a prayer being prayed "through." And this is biblical (see Revelation 5 "for the prayers of the saints shall go up like a cloud of incense."). On the same note, why would saints — people, presently in Heaven, and closer to God than anyone here on Earth — be incapable of praying to God?

To the contrary, I think their prayers would be more powerful than those of people on earth because of their more direct relation and proximity to God.

Purgatory is also biblical. The scriptures say that nothing unclean can enter heaven. So a saved man would not be permitted to go straight to heaven if he died “in sin”. Rather, his sins would, first, need to be cleansed.

For a few reasons, this does not contradict the notion of Christ's sacrifice. But, it is mostly because of the fact Christ told us to "go and sin no more."

Then there is the fact that it is written that “faith without works is dead.” The idea that one is saved by faith — without doing any good deeds — seems nothing short of pure arrogance. Nor is it scriptural in any sense.

So basically, the saved man who did not suffer for his sin on Earth, will suffer in purgatory for a short time.

And how is baptismal regeneration at all unscriptural? The concept of that belief came straight from Christ's own mouth…"No one can enter the kingdom without being born again of the spirit and of water."

Seems rather self explanatory, but yeah...

 

[Snoozy]

because you need to understand the teachings of the Church I'm sure in the biblical times the apostles taught the people about Christ and what the church teaches before they were accepted into the church regardless what your belief is on the matter this is actually not a fair criticism as most Christian communities have similar procedures

what teachings do u need to understand? u'll learn it once ur a member. for real there is no teachings of da church to be learned, they just wanna make u jump thru the liturgy hoops and give u a godfather and other unbiblical stuff. some of them i kno even give u a patron saint based on ur name or when u were born, complete trash. run from that stuff friend.

my church we baptize on da spot. u in on da spot. welcome to bible believing christianity. why cant folks just believe the bible. we have such a gift in our hands and we always want something more, some expert or priest or pope. traditions and weird hats.
if da jewish apostles saw what you are doing in the catholic churches they'd think they entered a pagan temple. jews dont like praying to saints or mary, and christianity (the real biblical one) has jewish roots. all the apostles were jews, think about that.

 

[Locutus]

wouldn't all protestant churches to an extent be "reorganized Catholicism" if your gonna define it that way lol

Some would, the early Anglicans were neutered RC's....