Seriously What is Up With This

[RexCA]

Ok those of you that have been on my few threads I have posted you caught me I need to work on my punctuation. But on the same note when asking about religious comparisons between religions under the scope of Christendom (weather you consider them to be Christian or not is irrelevant for all purposes right now) what is up with people making nonsensical comparisons between the Catholic Church, Mormons, and JWs for those of you on here that are honest and have any idea what any of these groups teach you would be 100% aware all 3 of these groups share very little theology in common. When a question is asked about Catholic/protestant relations and someone makes some obscure nonsense comparison between Catholics and JWs I would like to know your true intentions of doing that.

Catholic Church
1 God=Holy Trinity Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Scriptures=Bible including deuterocanonicals from Greek Septuagint translation includes books of Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch

authority comes equally from sacred scripture and sacred tradition

salvation comes from a life striving for holiness by living a life of faith by doing good works and staying faithful to the 7 sacraments (baptism, Eucharist, confirmation, confession, matrimony, holy orders, last rites)

Jesus Christ=God incarnate prophesized Hebrew messiah second person of the Holy Trinity

Jehovah's Witnesses
1 God=unity

scriptures=Bible specifically New World Translation which uses a 66 book cannon as well as Watchtower Society magazines such as Awake! and Watchtower

authority comes from New World Translation of Bible and Watchtower Society

salvation comes from membership with the Jehovah's Witnesses

Jesus Christ=St. Michael the Archangel


Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(Mormons)

infinite number of Gods believe in a multiverse system with at least one God for each universe our universe has at least 4 separate God's who all were at one point man either in this life or another Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Heavenly Mother, Joseph Smith(possibly)

Scriptures King James Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price

authority comes from scriptures and "the prophet"

salvation Mormons have a complex view on salvation their concept of Hell is more similar to Purgatory in Catholicism than an eternal Hell they believe in a form of universalism to an extent but the most devout male Mormons will become creator Gods of their own universe the females who are married to these men in temple binding ceremonies will be their eternal heavenly wives

Jesus Christ= a man who became a God through good works

 

[Dino246]

In your previous thread, I challenged you because your use of language was so poor that I honestly could not determine your point. I still can't. You are stating that different cults have different beliefs. And?

If you are defending Catholicism, you're in the wrong place. In fact, if you're defending any of the three, you're in the wrong place. All are heretical on several levels.

 

[Locutus]

Looks like he is trying to defend Roman Catholicism Dino:

"

salvation comes from a life striving for holiness by living a life of faith by doing good works and staying faithful to the 7 sacraments (baptism, Eucharist, confirmation, confession, matrimony, holy orders, last rites)"​

 

[PrynceNY]

Are you defending any of those or just making a simple general statement about them?. It would be useful if you could identify what you are so others can understand what perspective you are coming from.

 

[RexCA]

Are you defending any of those or just making a simple general statement about them?. It would be useful if you could identify what you are so others can understand what perspective you are coming from.

I am Catholic but this post wasn't made as means to push my faith it was made to point out a sense of ignorance by many people on here about what Catholicism actually is. The point being I see people make obscure claims about JWs and Catholics having similar beliefs simply because they disagree with both faiths that is just pure ignorance is the point I am trying to make.

 

[Yonah]

Here's a good piece of free advise, just pray, follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Savior already knows where you need to be just follow Him, and avoid getting tangled up in all this man made stuff, it only needlessly overcomplicates what is clear and true.

 

[PrynceNY]

I am Catholic but this post wasn't made as means to push my faith it was made to point out a sense of ignorance by many people on here about what Catholicism actually is. The point being I see people make obscure claims about JWs and Catholics having similar beliefs simply because they disagree with both faiths that is just pure ignorance is the point I am trying to make.

I see, well im not aware of the Catholic - JW connection claims others may have made. However there are various false doctrines in the Catholic church that myself and others point out.

 

[Desdichado]

If Catholics were remotely similar to JW's, there would be no Europe.

 

[Nehemiah6]

... when asking about religious comparisons between religions under the scope of Christendom (weather you consider them to be Christian or not is irrelevant for all purposes right now) what is up with people making nonsensical comparisons between the Catholic Church, Mormons, and JWs

Rex the common denominator is false doctrine, so that's the reason all these groups are lumped together for convenience. Yes there is no question that the RCC has many doctrines in common with Bible Christianity. But it also has many doctrines at variance with Bible truth. Take the examples of the veneration and elevation of Mary and praying to the saints, or the doctrine of Purgatory, or the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. All these are false and if a person's salvation is at risk because of false doctrine, then it does not matter which group is promoting it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If Catholics were remotely similar to JW's, there would be no Europe.

As matters stand, there is no Europe. The Islamists has taken over, and hordes of Muslims will make Europe an Islamic stronghold.

 

[Dino246]

I am Catholic but this post wasn't made as means to push my faith it was made to point out a sense of ignorance by many people on here about what Catholicism actually is. The point being I see people make obscure claims about JWs and Catholics having similar beliefs simply because they disagree with both faiths that is just pure ignorance is the point I am trying to make.

Fair enough... it's true that Catholic, JW and Mormon are not the same, and that their adherents hold diverse beliefs. Given that, it is incorrect of us to lump them together and assume connections where there are none, or to "accuse" the adherent of one system of holding the beliefs of another system.

However, wrong is wrong, and close doesn't count. All three are considered pseudo-Christian, in that their adherents may claim to be Christian, or to have beliefs which are shared with Christianity, but all three contain beliefs which are anti-Christian.

If you're the curious sort, I'd recommend you locate and read Isaac Asimov's "The Relativity of Wrong". It's a short essay, the gist of which states that 2+2 = 4, and that 5, while closer than 17, is really not any more correct. In the same way, having a belief which is "mostly" Christian will still land you in a rather warm lake. Check Galatians for an example.

 

[Desdichado]

Fine. There would have been no Europe for over a thousand years before this point.

Even then, I would still say the jury is out.

As matters stand, there is no Europe. The Islamists has taken over, and hordes of Muslims will make Europe an Islamic stronghold.

 

[Angela53510]

Thanks for spacing a bit better, Rex. Next, capitalization and periods, combined with commas! Then editing, to not just see punctuation errors, but if you are actually getting your point across.

First, my challenge is that you read the entire Bible, preferably a lot! You don't have to read it all at once. Three chapters of the OT and 1 a day of the NT will get you through it in a year! And you probably won't understand it all the first read through, or the 10th. That is what makes the Bible interesting, you never stop learning more and more about God! The ahold Spirit will show you what you need to know! No blind guides necessary!

And that is why the Catholic Church panicked all those years, kept the Bible in Latin, a dead language, and said no one could read it without the interpretation of a priest or the "Church!" Because, it is not simple, in places! But it is profitable! And much more!

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16-17

But, the gospel is simple! Repent and believe in Jesus. Not 7 sacraments, just Jesus! Follow him! And the way to follow him is not church traditions, but as he is revealed in the Bible!

So read the Bible, before you come in here, challenging Sola Scriptura! I promise you will not regret it!

 

[RexCA]

Rex the common denominator is false doctrine, so that's the reason all these groups are lumped together for convenience. Yes there is no question that the RCC has many doctrines in common with Bible Christianity. But it also has many doctrines at variance with Bible truth. Take the examples of the veneration and elevation of Mary and praying to the saints, or the doctrine of Purgatory, or the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. All these are false and if a person's salvation is at risk because of false doctrine, then it does not matter which group is promoting it.

I should really bite my tongue on this and say nothing but I guess I'll listen to my gut first off the prayer "to" is better worded as a prayer "through" and this is biblical see Revelation 5 "for the prayers of the saints shall go up like a cloud of incense". On the same note why would saints people closer to God than anyone on Earth be incapable of praying to God contrary I think their prayers would be more powerful than those on earth because of their relation to God. Purgatory is also biblical the scriptures say nothing unclean can enter heaven so a saved man would not be permitted to go straight to heaven if he died in sin rather his sins would need to be cleansed this does not contradict the notion of Christ's sacrifice for a few reasons but mostly because of the fact Christ told us to "go and sin no more" as well as the fact that it is written that faith without works is dead the idea that one is saved by faith without doing any good deeds seems nothing short of pure arrogance nor is it scriptural in any sense so basically the saved man who did not suffer for his sin will suffer in purgatory for a short time. And how is baptismal regeneration at all unscriptural the concept of it came straight from Christ's own mouth "no one can enter the kingdom without being born again of the spirit and water." Seems rather self explanatory but yeah...

 

[Angela53510]

Menno Simons was a RCC priest, and he was told not to read the Bible, he didn't have advanced enough training! But he wondered about the Eucharist and transubstantiation and infant Baptism, searched for them in the Bible and could not find them. So, He started reading the Bible, and found, to his surprise how much of what he had been taught, and was doing as priest contradicted the Bible. So he left the RCC, and he is credited with being the founder of the Anabaptists, which includes Mennonites. Although, he never set out to start a new denomination, just to follow Christ.

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Menno_Simons_(1496-1561)

I do hope you hope you have read the story of Martin Luther! Or is that suppressed, too? He had PhDs in theology, taught at a world renowned Catholic seminary in Germany. But he was tormented day and night that he was not saved. His Confessor got tired of hearing the same confessions over and over. Then one day, he read Romans 5:1, and that made him realize the truth!

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[ have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

It isn't necessary to refute every wrong doctrine in the Catholic Church, of which there are many! It is only necessary to read the Bible and it will explain the Plannof Salvation, without catechisms, councils or creeds!

https://www.biography.com/people/martin-luther-9389283

 

[RamahDesjardin]

This does bring up a question on how much doctrine is enough to prevent salvation. Just about every denomination has at least one doctrinal point the others say is heresy. If a Catholic such as RexCA "declares with his mouth Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart God raised Him from the dead" then how can we say they're not saved? If the Catholic church teaches its members at least enough to do that, how can we say it's not teaching salvation?

To build on the metaphor from Isaac Asimov, I can know that 2 + 2 = 4 without knowing 12 x 12 = 144.

We first must identify the necessary teaching for salvation. If a church manages to know that much, even while getting other things wrong, then at least they have salvation. If a church is so far gone that they can't even get there, that's a different story.

 

[RexCA]

Thanks for spacing a bit better, Rex. Next, capitalization and periods, combined with commas! Then editing, to not just see punctuation errors, but if you are actually getting your point across.

First, my challenge is that you read the entire Bible, preferably a lot! You don't have to read it all at once. Three chapters of the OT and 1 a day of the NT will get you through it in a year! And you probably won't understand it all the first read through, or the 10th. That is what makes the Bible interesting, you never stop learning more and more about God! The ahold Spirit will show you what you need to know! No blind guides necessary!

And that is why the Catholic Church panicked all those years, kept the Bible in Latin, a dead language, and said no one could read it without the interpretation of a priest or the "Church!" Because, it is not simple, in places! But it is profitable! And much more!

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16-17

But, the gospel is simple! Repent and believe in Jesus. Not 7 sacraments, just Jesus! Follow him! And the way to follow him is not church traditions, but as he is revealed in the Bible!

So read the Bible, before you come in here, challenging Sola Scriptura! I promise you will not regret it!

First off I was raised Lutheran I came to the conclusion that sola scriptura is unscriptural by the basis of study not by indoctrination secondly your point about the Church hiding the scriptures is false Latin is was and has been since at least the 5th century been the official liturgical language of the church this is why it was in Latin not to hide the Bible from common people. Beyond that the reason most did not have bibles was because of the fact that mass production of literature did not exist until the 1400s with the printing press even then it was a slow process the printing press was not really modernized nor did most Christians own family bibles until the early 1800s.

 

[PrynceNY]

I should really bite my tongue on this and say nothing but I guess I'll listen to my gut first off the prayer "to" is better worded as a prayer "through" and this is biblical see Revelation 5 "for the prayers of the saints shall go up like a cloud of incense". On the same note why would saints people closer to God than anyone on Earth be incapable of praying to God contrary I think their prayers would be more powerful than those on earth because of their relation to God. Purgatory is also biblical the scriptures say nothing unclean can enter heaven so a saved man would not be permitted to go straight to heaven if he died in sin rather his sins would need to be cleansed this does not contradict the notion of Christ's sacrifice for a few reasons but mostly because of the fact Christ told us to "go and sin no more" as well as the fact that it is written that faith without works is dead the idea that one is saved by faith without doing any good deeds seems nothing short of pure arrogance nor is it scriptural in any sense so basically the saved man who did not suffer for his sin will suffer in purgatory for a short time. And how is baptismal regeneration at all unscriptural the concept of it came straight from Christ's own mouth "no one can enter the kingdom without being born again of the spirit and water." Seems rather self explanatory but yeah...

Sorry but there's no such thing as purgatory only Heaven & Hell nothing in between. Once people leave this earth their judgement is set.

 

[RexCA]

Sorry but there's no such thing as purgatory only Heaven & Hell nothing in between. Once people leave this earth their judgement is set.

yeah we don't disagree on that much Purgatory is not a place of judgement everyone in Purgatory goes to Heaven it is a place of "purging of the saints" to quote C.S Lewis(who he himself was not Catholic but did hold a belief in Purgatory) essentially everyone in Purgatory is going to Heaven they are spending a time of preparation for Heaven because they still had (venial is the word used in Catholic theology) attachments on Earth that may have been sinful or unholy but where not so grave that they separated them from Christ

 

[Angela53510]

With regards to Christology, the Catholic Church is completely Orthodox. No one has problems with that. They know who Christ is!

With regards to Soteriology, or how we are saved, the Catholic Church is heretical, because it preaches another gospel on how to be saved. For instance, the 7 sacraments you mentioned in the OP. I assume the word, "sacraments" has something to do with the word, sacred, or sanctification. Except, it is not how we are sanctified, or grow in Christ, according to the Bible!

In fact, Catholics get the order of salvation wrong, with adherents needing to be made holy BEFORE they are justified, or saved. So no one knows if they are saved when they die, everyone ending up needing to be "purified" in purgatory before they are saved. The result, indulgences, masses for the dead, people paying to get their loved ones out of purgatory. Look up purgatory in any concordance, or Bible search, and it isn't there, not even the concept!

Talk about a doctrine enslaving millions which is completely contrary to the Bible! Jesus makes it clear in the story of the rich man named Lazarus, there is only one time to makrpe a decision for Christ, and that is in this lifetime!

Traditions are fine, I suppose, as long as they are 109% rooted in the Bible, and do not contradict it. But until you read the Bible, you won't know how these church dogma contradicts the Bible. You are blindly following traditions, and yet you have never checked out the Bible, to find out what it says!