Salvation and how to "know" when you receive it.

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Either way I plan on enduring in Jesus's name unto death,we'll all know the truth eventually until then we are free to discuss God's word with one another though still being aware that some will seek our deaths for doing so but that's what Jesus meant by "endure" keep on moving forward with him and for him until he returns in full glory on judgement day.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 134:1-3, “Come, bless [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], All you servants of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Who are standing in the House of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]by night! Lift up your hands in the set-apart place, And bless [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].. .[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Maker of the heavens and earth, Does bless you from Tsiyon!”[/FONT]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Either way I plan on enduring in Jesus's name unto death,we'll all know the truth eventually until then we are free to discuss God's word with one another though still being aware that some will seek our deaths for doing so but that's what Jesus meant by "endure" keep on moving forward with him and for him until he returns in full glory on judgement day.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 31:34, “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 8:11, “And they shall by no means teach each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],’ because they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them."[/FONT]
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,001
13,008
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It is you who is unable to see the forest for the trees because you teach faith alone regeneration.
Salvation is through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

This means that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation, which you are yet to do. You are unable to see the forest for the trees because you teach baptismal regeneration. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. :rolleyes:

Something that is clearly the opposite of what James is teaching.
James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

*Once again and please pay close attention - In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Regardless of your "rightly understood" definition of faith, it is still not faith alone that saves.
It's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRST ALONE that saves. SAVED THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not to be confused with what James means by faith "alone" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. Will you ever figure this out? This is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.

A man can have faith to move a mountain but without obedience he is still lost. We may debate what needs to be obeyed but not the need to obey. It is this obedience and faith that saves.
False. Faith to move a mountain that results in no obedience at all is an oxymoron. It's not faith and obedience/works which follows that saves. When will you get that through your head? Your true colors are really showing. You clearly teach salvation through faith and works in contradiction to Scripture.

Rahab was not merely showing or demonstrating her "authentic" faith, she was obeying the command that was to save her. An action that if not obeyed as commanded would have led to her doom. It was the act of tying the cord that saved her, not her faith alone. This is the block you keep tripping over.
Joshua 2:9 and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. 12 “Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.” 14 “Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land.” 15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.” 17 Now the men had said to her, “This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If any of them go outside your house into the street, their blood will be on their own heads; we will not be responsible. As for those who are in the house with you, their blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on them. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.” 21 “Agreed,” she replied. “Let it be as you say.” So she sent them away, and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

The act of tying the cord saved her from what? There is nothing there about Rahab receiving eternal life based on the merits of tying the cord. By tying the cord, Rahab saved herself and her family from physical death, yet it was her faith that was the basis of why she would receive eternal life. With your logic, Noah would have been saved based on the merits of building the ark, yet Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. So building the ark was a demonstration of Noah's faith and saved him and his family from drowning. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

I thoroughly read your post #187 and is a carbon copy of faith alone salvationists, such as Joseph Prince, Oral Roberts and even followers of Benny Hinn.
I don't listen to any of those men and all I ever hear about Benny Hinn is that he is a false prophet and I seriously doubt that I am a carbon copy of everything they teach. You don't even understand what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. All you think of is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" which IS NOT what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE. Salvation by works is taught in Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism and by other false religions and cults.

Your post is most certainly drawn out. If you need the following:
Romans 4:2-3 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now continue to read verses 4-6. These passages of Scripture blow your works based false gospel right out of the water! :)

Luke 7:29
Luke 7:29 - God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19
"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

*My point remains - In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

1st John 4:18
Again, In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18.

Genesis 15:6
Genesis 15:5 - He took him (Abram/Abraham) outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. *Also read Romans 4:2-3.

Acts 16:31
Notice that Acts 16:31 says to "Believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, NOT believe and get water baptized and then you will be saved. Their baptism followed their faith and conversion.

Matthew 12:37
Again, in Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will give evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

to explain such simple verses, you have not just stumbled but have tumbled down the hill of self-denial.
I explained these simple verses but unfortunately, you continue to stumble and tumble down the hill of self-denial in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine. You simply REFUSE to repent and believe the gospel. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. :(

While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith for salvation may sound noble, in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why - We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To say that we must "add works" to the gospel is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the belief, trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation is the opposite of placing faith in Him.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Salvation is through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

This means that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation, which you are yet to do. You are unable to see the forest for the trees because you teach baptismal regeneration. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. :rolleyes:

James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

*Once again and please pay close attention - In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

It's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRST ALONE that saves. SAVED THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not to be confused with what James means by faith "alone" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. Will you ever figure this out? This is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.

False. Faith to move a mountain that results in no obedience at all is an oxymoron. It's not faith and obedience/works which follows that saves. When will you get that through your head? Your true colors are really showing. You clearly teach salvation through faith and works in contradiction to Scripture.

Joshua 2:9 and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. 12 “Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.” 14 “Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land.” 15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.” 17 Now the men had said to her, “This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If any of them go outside your house into the street, their blood will be on their own heads; we will not be responsible. As for those who are in the house with you, their blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on them. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.” 21 “Agreed,” she replied. “Let it be as you say.” So she sent them away, and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

The act of tying the cord saved her from what? There is nothing there about Rahab receiving eternal life based on the merits of tying the cord. By tying the cord, Rahab saved herself and her family from physical death, yet it was her faith that was the basis of why she would receive eternal life. With your logic, Noah would have been saved based on the merits of building the ark, yet Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. So building the ark was a demonstration of Noah's faith and saved him and his family from drowning. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

I don't listen to any of those men and all I ever hear about Benny Hinn is that he is a false prophet and I seriously doubt that I am a carbon copy of everything they teach. You don't even understand what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. All you think of is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" which IS NOT what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE. Salvation by works is taught in Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism and by other false religions and cults.



Romans 4:2-3 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now continue to read verses 4-6. These passages of Scripture blow your works based false gospel right out of the water! :)

Luke 7:29 - God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

*My point remains - In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Again, In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18.

Genesis 15:5 - He took him (Abram/Abraham) outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. *Also read Romans 4:2-3.

Notice that Acts 16:31 says to "Believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, NOT believe and get water baptized and then you will be saved. Their baptism followed their faith and conversion.

Again, in Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will give evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

I explained these simple verses but unfortunately, you continue to stumble and tumble down the hill of self-denial in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine. You simply REFUSE to repent and believe the gospel. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. :(

While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith for salvation may sound noble, in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why - We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To say that we must "add works" to the gospel is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the belief, trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation is the opposite of placing faith in Him.
A very thorough and accurate post nice effort!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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20,395
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I made no such reference.
Adding to what Jesus said?
Your Matthew 24 quote does not deal with the salvation of the soul....it is applicable to the great tribulation and enduring until the end and the preservation of one's life........
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Your Matthew 24 quote does not deal with the salvation of the soul....it is applicable to the great tribulation and enduring until the end and the preservation of one's life........
Matthew 24:13 is certainly not talking about the sparing the lives of the saints. This passage is speaking of the martyrdom of the saints. Verse 9 clearly states that Christians will be killed for His name. Their blood will be shed, enduring will not guarantee physical life. If their goal is to save their physical lives, better to stop enduring and give up the faith.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Salvation is through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

This means that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation, which you are yet to do. You are unable to see the forest for the trees because you teach baptismal regeneration. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. :rolleyes:

James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

*Once again and please pay close attention - In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

It's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRST ALONE that saves. SAVED THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not to be confused with what James means by faith "alone" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. Will you ever figure this out? This is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.

False. Faith to move a mountain that results in no obedience at all is an oxymoron. It's not faith and obedience/works which follows that saves. When will you get that through your head? Your true colors are really showing. You clearly teach salvation through faith and works in contradiction to Scripture.

Joshua 2:9 and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. 12 “Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.” 14 “Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land.” 15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.” 17 Now the men had said to her, “This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If any of them go outside your house into the street, their blood will be on their own heads; we will not be responsible. As for those who are in the house with you, their blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on them. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.” 21 “Agreed,” she replied. “Let it be as you say.” So she sent them away, and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

The act of tying the cord saved her from what? There is nothing there about Rahab receiving eternal life based on the merits of tying the cord. By tying the cord, Rahab saved herself and her family from physical death, yet it was her faith that was the basis of why she would receive eternal life. With your logic, Noah would have been saved based on the merits of building the ark, yet Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. So building the ark was a demonstration of Noah's faith and saved him and his family from drowning. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

I don't listen to any of those men and all I ever hear about Benny Hinn is that he is a false prophet and I seriously doubt that I am a carbon copy of everything they teach. You don't even understand what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. All you think of is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" which IS NOT what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE. Salvation by works is taught in Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism and by other false religions and cults.



Romans 4:2-3 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now continue to read verses 4-6. These passages of Scripture blow your works based false gospel right out of the water! :)

Luke 7:29 - God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

*My point remains - In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Again, In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18.

Genesis 15:5 - He took him (Abram/Abraham) outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. *Also read Romans 4:2-3.

Notice that Acts 16:31 says to "Believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, NOT believe and get water baptized and then you will be saved. Their baptism followed their faith and conversion.

Again, in Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will give evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

I explained these simple verses but unfortunately, you continue to stumble and tumble down the hill of self-denial in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine. You simply REFUSE to repent and believe the gospel. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. :(

While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith for salvation may sound noble, in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why - We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To say that we must "add works" to the gospel is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the belief, trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation is the opposite of placing faith in Him.
The Bible cannot be so complicated as to not accept such simple verses at face value. The flow and form of the Bible is one of obedience for living in God's good graces.

Your notion of God granting salvation based on the belief that believing He will save equals such saving is unfounded in light of the scriptures as a whole. Yes, if only certain verses are used to base a theology this reasoning will be true but not if the whole Bible is taken into consideration. There are too many verses that speak of obedience being key to salvation or any other reward. God promised the snake bitten Jews in the desert healing if they looked upon the brass snake in the center of the camp. To think that they could simply ignore this and just have faith that believing the promise as true would heal them is absurd.

Regardless of what they were healed from (physical or spiritual) the example is clear, a command with a promise must be obeyed to receive the promised reward.

Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ. Then God will forgive your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you. It is also for your children and for the people who are far away. If is for everyone the Lord our God calls to Himself.

This is the promise, this is the reward. This is the word of God. It cannot be ignored or twisted, it is to be obeyed.
 
Last edited:

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,001
13,008
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The Bible cannot be so complicated as to not accept such simple verses at face value. The flow and form of the Bible is one of obedience for living in God's good graces.
In Ephesians 2:8, Paul clearly stated that we are saved through FAITH, not faith and obedience. In Romans 5:2, Paul clearly stated that we have access by FAITH into grace, not faith and obedience. You are always trying to "add works of obedience" to believing the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel (not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing the gospel and becoming saved), yet there are those who refuse to obey the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16).

So please tell me, since you believe that FAITH in Christ is insufficient to save, how much obedience must you accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?

Your notion of God granting salvation based on the belief that believing He will save equals such saving is unfounded in light of the scriptures as a whole.
It amazes me how you talk about accepting simple verses at face value, yet that is not what you do with such simple verses as (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). You end up trying to "shoe horn" water and works "into" believes in Him/faith in order to force these simple, clear verses to "conform" to your biased theology. That's called flawed hermeneutics.

Yes, if only certain verses are used to base a theology this reasoning will be true but not if the whole Bible is taken into consideration. There are too many verses that speak of obedience being key to salvation or any other reward. God promised the snake bitten Jews in the desert healing if they looked upon the brass snake in the center of the camp. To think that they could simply ignore this and just have faith that believing the promise as true would heal them is absurd.
John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Regardless of what they were healed from (physical or spiritual) the example is clear, a command with a promise must be obeyed to receive the promised reward.
The point of the analogy is "lifted up." Just as Moses "lifted up" the snake on the pole so that all who looked upon it in faith may live physically, those who look to Christ in faith who was "lifted up" on the cross will live spiritually and eternally. *Nothing there about salvation by works.

Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ. Then God will forgive your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is for you. It is also for your children and for the people who are far away. If is for everyone the Lord our God calls to Himself.

This is the promise, this is the reward. This is the word of God. It cannot be ignored or twisted, it is to be obeyed.
God's word cannot be twisted or ignored, yet why do you hang your hat on Acts 2:38 (pet verse of your church) and ignore so many other verses? such as Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18 etc.

*SCRIPTURE MUST HARMONIZE WITH SCRIPTURE.*

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
 

DJ2

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Apr 15, 2017
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In Ephesians 2:8, Paul clearly stated that we are saved through FAITH, not faith and obedience. In Romans 5:2, Paul clearly stated that we have access by FAITH into grace, not faith and obedience. You are always trying to "add works of obedience" to believing the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)
These are classic examples of presumption of intent, something you imply often. Simply cherry picking verses that mention "faith" without obedience proves nothing. In Ephesians 1:3-8, Paul clearly states that we are saved through God's good will, not faith. Does the lack of mentioning faith in these verses negate the other verses that require faith?

The bible clearly teaches the need for obedience, it flows through all 66 books. To read the scriptures and believe otherwise is absurd. If faith and faith alone was the only requirement for salvation why the lack of such an important verse. Why the existence of promises demanding obedience before the forgiveness of sins such as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16 etc.

These verses can be taken at face value, faith is certainly needed to be saved. But to imply that faith alone is needed in these verses is a presumed intention that if accepted does not harmonize with the rest of scripture.

A theology based on what is not written is rather weak. A theology based of presumed intent.
 
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PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
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For a long time in my life I didn't "know" about how to go about being saved,because my "First" Church didn't mention how to be saved,primarily focusing on "Water Baptism" as the only accepting of eternal life,years later I finally went to ironically my other side of the family and went to a church and the members there explained that "being saved" is a "knowing thing"it threw me for a loop,because I hadn't been told a "way" to do so,so I inquired further with members about if it's a "knowing thing" then how do I know if I'm saved when I don't know any process of being saved?
And they explained that "Salvation" is through Jesus and Given by God,when one humbly and sincerely,asks God to save their soul "And" accepts Jesus as saviour,then one can receive the holy spirit.
After some time of thinking on their words and thinking on what they meant,I eventually realized what they meant,they didn't tell me some "ceremony" or "task" to do to be saved because it wasn't about doing something to get "saved" it was about believing upon that Jesus died for my sin and that he is my saviour,alongside that I was to humble my heart to God asking for him to save my soul,realizing that I needed his guidance to not die in my sins,and that through Jesus I could be saved,ultimately coming to realize that God had been waiting on "Me" to ask for salvation humbly then accept it through accepting Jesus as saviour,and now I am holy spirit filled doing what I can for God through Chat sites,and simply doing what he asks of me!
That is how I know I am "Saved".
For "All" whom can "affirm" how to know if one is saved because you"know" you are saved,please share your own personal experience,or if one retorts this share your retort,either way please share "All" posts in an "unhateful" and "mature" way,God bless you!
Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.
[FONT=&quot]1 Peter 4:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[/FONT]
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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These are classic examples of presumption of intent, something you imply often.
Will you ever see the light? The Bible clearly teaches in multiple passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith (Luke 8:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..) "apart from additions or modifications."

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in these multiple passages of scripture in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these passages say belief/faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Simply cherry picking verses that mention "faith" without obedience proves nothing.
It proves everything. Faith is faith and obedience which follows and is produced "out of" faith is works and we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Cherry picking verses that mention "obedience/works" then trying to "shoe horn" obedience/works "into" salvation through faith, not works, amounts to flawed hermeneutics.
In Ephesians 1:3-8, Paul clearly states that we are saved through God's good will, not faith. Does the lack of mentioning faith in these verses negate the other verses that require faith?
No because God's good will (just like God's grace in Ephesians 2:8) is God's part, and faith is man's part.
The bible clearly teaches the need for obedience, it flows through all 66 books.
Christ does not need our obedience/works added as a supplement to His finished work of redemption in order to "help Him" save us. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28).

To read the scriptures and believe otherwise is absurd.
So how much obedience does it take? Since you refuse to place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation and continue to trust in your works for salvation, why don't you explain to me how much is enough and why Christ is not enough for you?

If faith and faith alone was the only requirement for salvation why the lack of such an important verse.
As I already previously explained, The Bible clearly teaches in multiple passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith (Luke 8:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..) "apart from additions or modifications."

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in these multiple passages of scripture in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these passages say belief/faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Why the existence of promises demanding obedience before the forgiveness of sins such as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16 etc
These verses "on the surface" merely "appear" to teach what you so desperately want them to say. I already explained Acts 2:38 (pet verse of the church of Christ) to you in post #209.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In regards to Acts 22:16, as Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to your conclusion. In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47).

*No Scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa. For instance, if we find a verse that "on the surface" seems to teach that baptism is required for salvation or that we are saved by works, but then have multiple other verses that teach otherwise, are we to allow the odd verse to alter the clear meaning of the many? NO.

The "washing away of sin" in water baptism is only "formal" or symbolic. The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord.

These verses can be taken at face value, faith is certainly needed to be saved. But to imply that faith alone is needed in these verses is a presumed intention that if accepted does not harmonize with the rest of scripture.
Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) certainly does harmonize with the rest of scripture. Instead of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, you distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

A theology based on what is not written is rather weak. A theology based of presumed intent.
Your 4 step plan of salvation is weak. The Bible sometimes only mentions repentance as a condition for salvation. One example of this would be Luke 13:3, “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” See also Acts 3:19. A few times both repentance and faith are mentioned in the same verse (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). There are many, many verses which only mention BELIEF/FAITH as the condition for salvation (Luke 8:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ. Two sides to the same experience. When only repentance is mentioned, faith is implied or assumed. When only faith is mentioned, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. If you believe, then you already repented in the process of changing your mind and choosing to believe the gospel and are saved. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. Confession is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10).

A huge problem that I see with your understanding of faith is you seem to believe that ALL faith is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot seem to grasp a DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. You also reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith and basically define repentance as moral self reformation. This also explains why they have so much faith in "water and works."
 

DJ2

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Apr 15, 2017
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[Will you ever see the light? The Bible clearly teaches in multiple passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith (Luke 8:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..) "apart from additions or modifications." /QUOTE]
It is you who cannot see the obvious. You cannot even see your own assumptions. "Apart from additions or modification" came out of your false presumption of intent, nothing more.

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in these multiple passages of scripture in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these passages say belief/faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
For these verses to mean what you are assuming, they most certainly do need a definitive clause. Without one it is a general statement of given facts. Anything else is a unfounded assumption. If the writers of these verses wanted to convey such a message they could have easily added a number of different definitive clauses such as alone, only, strictly, solely, exclusively etc.

Christ does not need our obedience/works added as a supplement to His finished work of redemption in order to "help Him" save us. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)
It is not about "needing" our obedience but demanding our obedience.

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in these multiple passages of scripture in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these passages say belief/faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
Again, you are simply taking general statements and labeling them definitive. This only proves the weakness of your "gospel of assumptions".

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
On your total confusion on such a simple verse as Mark 16:16, I agree that "condemnation rests on unbelief" but salvation rests on belief and obedience. A point you seem to always miss.

unbelief = condemnation
faith and baptism = salvation

If a believer is saved, why would Jesus add "and baptism"? It looks like Jesus is shoe horning in baptism.

You are correct, not all faith is the same. There is the humble faith that we are to have, accepting the will of God apart from our desire for grace on our terms and the misguided faith of the trust only sects.
 
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J

joefizz

Guest
Cool this thread after giving it another chance is still active!
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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All you need to do is look at which comments post Scriptures and which ones simply refute with their logic and name calling.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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It is you who cannot see the obvious. You cannot even see your own assumptions. "Apart from additions or modification" came out of your false presumption of intent, nothing more.
What assumptions? What is obvious is that those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted clearly state that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" and not belief/faith "plus something else/works" Simple!

For these verses to mean what you are assuming, they most certainly do need a definitive clause. Without one it is a general statement of given facts. Anything else is a unfounded assumption. If the writers of these verses wanted to convey such a message they could have easily added a number of different definitive clauses such as alone, only, strictly, solely, exclusively etc.
False. Belief/faith is belief/faith and multiple acts of obedience/works which follow are multiple acts of obedience/works. You erroneously try to "shoe horn" works "into" belief/faith but the shoe does not fit. Belief/faith is the root of salvation and multiple acts of obedience/works which follow are the fruit.

It is not about "needing" our obedience but demanding our obedience.
Obedience is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers, but it is in false religions and cults. Refusing to repent and believe the gospel is disobedience and leaves a person in UNBELIEF no matter how much other so called obedience that a person attempts to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

Again, you are simply taking general statements and labeling them definitive. This only proves the weakness of your "gospel of assumptions".
So labelling these statement as general gives you free reign to "shoe horn" whatever works that you like "into" belief/faith? Roman Catholics and Mormons make the same error. I preach the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). I have no gospel of assumptions, but you have a "works based" false gospel.

On your total confusion on such a simple verse as Mark 16:16, I agree that "condemnation rests on unbelief" but salvation rests on belief and obedience. A point you seem to always miss.
The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. A point you always seem to miss. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism were absolutely required for salvation, then Jesus surely would have mentioned it in the following verses, but He did not (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). So what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

unbelief = condemnation
Amen! Belief in baptism and other works instead of belief in CHRIST ALONE for salvation = unbelief. You still have not figured that out.

faith and baptism = salvation
If he who believes will be saved, then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well, yet He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith in Christ as all rites and works must be! Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved, for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove good works/acts of obedience from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

If a believer is saved, why would Jesus add "and baptism"? It looks like Jesus is shoe horning in baptism.
Jesus is not adding baptism as an additional requirement to believes in Him in order to receive eternal life, as you assume. Again, Jesus is speaking of general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? hmm...

You are correct, not all faith is the same. There is the humble faith that we are to have, accepting the will of God apart from our desire for grace on our terms and the misguided faith of the trust only sects.
Humble faith does not trust in works righteousness. What is the will of God for us to receive eternal life? John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

In Romans 5:2, Paul clearly states that we have access BY FAITH INTO GRACE.. That is God's terms, unlike the misguided faith of the works salvation sects who REFUSE to TRUST IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. Such sects are motivated by PRIDE.
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For scripture interprets scripture, and nobody can preach or teach differently than what Yahshua already taught, and He Himself said He taught the doctrine of YHWH. What is promised to us is eternal life, so once again; once you have done the will of Yah in your life, in the resurrection you receive it. Not before.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 3:21, “To him who overcomes I shall give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:11, “And they overcame him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives to the death."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [/FONT]
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
So one is to look for "certainty" of salvation?
I believe in doing right for God and believing upon Jesus's promises,not seeing if there is an exact guarantee,for then where is one's faith?
if one needs further assurance at judgement day then they were never for God and never trusted upon Jesus,for isn't faith to begin with "the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen"!?
if one waits until Judgement day to think on one's salvation then they have squandered their time.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account."

1 Corinthians 4:4-5, “For I know nothing by myself; yet by this I am not justified, for He Who judges me is יהוה! Therefore, judge nothing before the time. Wait until Yahshua comes, Who will bring to light the things hidden in darkness, and will reveal the secret intentions of men's hearts; and then each man will receive praise from יהוה.”

Acts 17:30-31, “In the past יהוה winked at such ignorance, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent! For He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness, by a Man whom He has ordained; and He has given evidence to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Romans 2:4-15, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that יהוה’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of יהוה’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of יהוה will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with יהוה. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before Yah, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.”

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:17-18, “And if you call on the Father, Who without respect of persons judges according to each man’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in reverence. Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver or gold, from your idolatrous way of life handed down to you by tradition from your fathers.”

James (Yaaqob) 2:12, "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty."
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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What assumptions? What is obvious is that those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted clearly state that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" and not belief/faith "plus something else/works" Simple!
Are you so blind as to not see that what you think is written, "apart from additions or modifications" is simply not there. Can you not see that it is you who is attempting to modify these verses by adding "alone, solely, exclusively, only etc. to their meaning? If God wanted to convey such a notion He could have picked from your suggested word list. Take the scriptures for what they say not what you wish for them to say.

False. Belief/faith is belief/faith and multiple acts of obedience/works which follow are multiple acts of obedience/works. You erroneously try to "shoe horn" works "into" belief/faith but the shoe does not fit. Belief/faith is the root of salvation and multiple acts of obedience/works which follow are the fruit
It is you who is "shoe horning". You are attempting to add expressions such as "faith alone" or "trust only" into these verses. Such words are simply not there nor anywhere else in scripture.

Obedience is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers, but it is in false religions and cults. Refusing to repent and believe the gospel is disobedience and leaves a person in UNBELIEF no matter how much other so called obedience that a person attempts to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.
Amen! Obedience is not forced on genuine believers but it is false religions and cults that claim the moment of salvation is at the point of belief. God has ordained the forgiveness of sins at baptism. And no trust only regeneration theology will change this.

So labelling these statement as general gives you free reign to "shoe horn" whatever works that you like "into" belief/faith? Roman Catholics and Mormons make the same error. I preach the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). I have no gospel of assumptions, but you have a "works based" false gospel.
These verses are certainly general in nature and cannot be used pass their intended purpose. I accept these verses as written, it is you with shoe horn in hand that use them as proof of your "trust only" theology. To rely on verses that do not even address the exclusiveness of "faith alone" much less even state it, is a sign of a weak argument. You are simply turning a blind eye to the rest of the bible so as to not upset your gospel of assumptions.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. A point you always seem to miss. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism were absolutely required for salvation, then Jesus surely would have mentioned it in the following verses, but He did not (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26).
Again, cherry picking verses that do not mention obedience proves nothing. There are no verses of Jesus speaking of grace in the gospels, does this mean grace is not part of God's plan of salvation?

Jesus is not adding baptism as an additional requirement to believes in Him in order to receive eternal life, as you assume. Again, Jesus is speaking of general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses?
Why would Jesus "speak of general cases" or any other case if baptism is not even needed for salvation?

Humble faith does not trust in works righteousness.
Humble faith does what is asked of it. It certainly does not look for absurd and twisted loopholes in order to ignore what is clearly written,