Salvation and how to "know" when you receive it.

[mailmandan]

Are you so blind as to not see that what you think is written, "apart from additions or modifications" is simply not there.

The words belief/faith "stand alone" in those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted so "apart from additions or modifications" it is. Are you so blind that you cannot see that? The additions or modifications that you set out to "shoe horn" into belief/faith (water and works) are simply not there.

Can you not see that it is you who is attempting to modify these verses by adding "alone, solely, exclusively, only etc. to their meaning? If God wanted to convey such a notion He could have picked from your suggested word list.

I am simply stating the fact that in these multiple passages of scripture that I quoted the words belief/faith "stand alone" (they don't say believes "plus something else" or faith "plus something else") in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. That is not trying to modify these verses, add to them or change the meaning. It's you who is attempting to modify these verses by adding "water and works" to salvation through believes in Him/faith.

Take the scriptures for what they say not what you wish for them to say.

Which is exactly what you fail to do with those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted. SCRIPTURE MUST HARMONIZE WITH SCRIPTURE. Salvation by works does not harmonize with salvation by grace through faith, not works.

It is you who is "shoe horning". You are attempting to add expressions such as "faith alone" or "trust only" into these verses. Such words are simply not there nor anywhere else in scripture.

I'm not shoe horning anything because the words "belief/faith" in those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted "stand alone" in connection with "receiving eternal life/salvation" in those multiple passages of scripture. Do those passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's belief/faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Amen! Obedience is not forced on genuine believers but it is false religions and cults that claim the moment of salvation is at the point of belief. God has ordained the forgiveness of sins at baptism. And no trust only regeneration theology will change this.

Genuine believers understand that salvation is at the point of belief/faith (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; Ephesians 1:13 etc..). False religions and cults teach baptism regeneration and trust in works for salvation INSTEAD OF CHRIST ALONE. The forgiveness of sins is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in the waters of baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality and there is a reason for that. The natural man cannot understand and is spiritually discerned.

These verses are certainly general in nature and cannot be used pass their intended purpose.

Those verses make it crystal clear that those who believe in Him/believe the gospel/place faith in Christ for salvation "apart from additions or modifications" receive eternal life. That is there intended purpose. Your intended purpose is to pervert the gospel by "adding water and works" to salvation through belief/faith.

I accept these verses as written, it is you with shoe horn in hand that use them as proof of your "trust only" theology.

You obviously don't accept those verses as written, because you still REFUSE to place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation and are still trusting in "water and works" for salvation.

To rely on verses that do not even address the exclusiveness of "faith alone" much less even state it, is a sign of a weak argument. You are simply turning a blind eye to the rest of the bible so as to not upset your gospel of assumptions.

You still cannot even grasp what a genuine believer means by faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE and you confuse it with what James means by faith that remains "alone" - barren of works, which results in your weak argument. Instead of turning a blind eye to the rest of the Bible, I properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the correct conclusion on doctrine.

You continue to distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your "works based" false gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). When will you BELIEVE?

Again, cherry picking verses that do not mention obedience proves nothing. There are no verses of Jesus speaking of grace in the gospels, does this mean grace is not part of God's plan of salvation?

Cherry picking verses that mention obedience and trying to "shoe horn" them "into" verses that only mention belief/faith in order to teach salvation through faith and obedience/works when Paul clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) amounts to flawed hermeneutics. Grace is part of God's salvation, as we see in Ephesians 2:8, yet grace is God's part and faith is man's part. You still don't get it that when a genuine believer says that man is saved through faith alone, we don't mean that grace on God's part is left out, but that man is saved the moment that he places his faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Works salvationists just don't get it!

Why would Jesus "speak of general cases" or any other case if baptism is not even needed for salvation?

Why not? It logically follows that we get baptized after we believe and refusing to get baptized is a sign of unbelief. Why would Jesus NOT EVEN MENTION BAPTISM in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 is baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation?

Humble faith does what is asked of it. It certainly does not look for absurd and twisted loopholes in order to ignore what is clearly written,

Again, humble faith does not trust in works righteousness, but in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Humble faith results in obedience, which includes water baptism and I have received water baptism, *yet acts of obedience that follow saving faith in Christ are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.*

You will NEVER convince me to "withdraw" my faith from trusting exclusively in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation, but I sincerely hope and pray that you will come to place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation and stop trusting in works as the means of your salvation.

 

[joefizz]

The words belief/faith "stand alone" in those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted so "apart from additions or modifications" it is. Are you so blind that you cannot see that? The additions or modifications that you set out to "shoe horn" into belief/faith (water and works) are simply not there.

I am simply stating the fact that in these multiple passages of scripture that I quoted the words belief/faith "stand alone" (they don't say believes "plus something else" or faith "plus something else") in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. That is not trying to modify these verses, add to them or change the meaning. It's you who is attempting to modify these verses by adding "water and works" to salvation through believes in Him/faith.

Which is exactly what you fail to do with those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted. SCRIPTURE MUST HARMONIZE WITH SCRIPTURE. Salvation by works does not harmonize with salvation by grace through faith, not works.

I'm not shoe horning anything because the words "belief/faith" in those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted "stand alone" in connection with "receiving eternal life/salvation" in those multiple passages of scripture. Do those passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's belief/faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Genuine believers understand that salvation is at the point of belief/faith (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; Ephesians 1:13 etc..). False religions and cults teach baptism regeneration and trust in works for salvation INSTEAD OF CHRIST ALONE. The forgiveness of sins is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in the waters of baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality and there is a reason for that. The natural man cannot understand and is spiritually discerned.

Those verses make it crystal clear that those who believe in Him/believe the gospel/place faith in Christ for salvation "apart from additions or modifications" receive eternal life. That is there intended purpose. Your intended purpose is to pervert the gospel by "adding water and works" to salvation through belief/faith.

You obviously don't accept those verses as written, because you still REFUSE to place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation and are still trusting in "water and works" for salvation.

You still cannot even grasp what a genuine believer means by faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE and you confuse it with what James means by faith that remains "alone" - barren of works, which results in your weak argument. Instead of turning a blind eye to the rest of the Bible, I properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the correct conclusion on doctrine.

You continue to distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your "works based" false gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). When will you BELIEVE?

Cherry picking verses that mention obedience and trying to "shoe horn" them "into" verses that only mention belief/faith in order to teach salvation through faith and obedience/works when Paul clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) amounts to flawed hermeneutics. Grace is part of God's salvation, as we see in Ephesians 2:8, yet grace is God's part and faith is man's part. You still don't get it that when a genuine believer says that man is saved through faith alone, we don't mean that grace on God's part is left out, but that man is saved the moment that he places his faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Works salvationists just don't get it!

Why not? It logically follows that we get baptized after we believe and refusing to get baptized is a sign of unbelief. Why would Jesus NOT EVEN MENTION BAPTISM in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 is baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation?

Again, humble faith does not trust in works righteousness, but in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Humble faith results in obedience, which includes water baptism and I have received water baptism, *yet acts of obedience that follow saving faith in Christ are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.*

You will NEVER convince me to "withdraw" my faith from trusting exclusively in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation, but I sincerely hope and pray that you will come to place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation and stop trusting in works as the means of your salvation.

Yep works can show our faith but works don't save our soul only accepting Jesus as saviour and asking for one's soul to be saved is one saved.

 

[DJ2]

I am simply stating the fact that in these multiple passages of scripture that I quoted the words belief/faith "stand alone" (they don't say believes "plus something else" or faith "plus something else") in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. That is not trying to modify these verses, add to them or change the meaning. It's you who is attempting to modify these verses by adding "water and works" to salvation through believes in Him/faith.

I have never implied works of any kind are mentioned in any of these verses. I am simply pointing out the lack of a definitive clause in any of these scriptures. Without such a clause your understanding of their meaning is flawed, a emphatic stance cannot be taken or even assumed without a definitive clause. This is simple English composition and common sense.

Example: The postmaster promised that any tax return dropped off before midnight would be postmarked that same day.

Though there is no mention of proper postage being needed, a last minute filer could not use the argument, "I assumed the offer was based exclusively on getting the return in before midnight. I understand the importance of postage but Mr. Postmaster you cannot modify your offer now".

Why would Jesus NOT EVEN MENTION BAPTISM in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 is baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation?

Why should He? Is it not mentioned multiple times in scripture? Why does He not explain that saving faith must be "rightly understood"? Faith is the cornerstone of salvation but not the moment of salvation.

Simply put, your reasoning is flawed because:

A. None of your pet verses are definitive, verses that could have been easily written as such but were not.
B. It ignores the commands of other verses that are just as definitive.

If your verses were all that the Bible had to say about salvation and the forgiveness of sins, I would agree with your theology. But they are not. When promises such as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1st Peter 3:21 etc are presented you deny them as being definitive. A claim that is absurd in light of your acceptance of John 3:16, Acts 10:43, Romans 1:16 etc as definitive.

What is your basis for calling one verse definitive and another not?

Why is John 3:16 an all encompassing absolute statement on salvation and Mark 16:16 is not?

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniyl 12:2-3, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake; some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise will shine as the brightness of the heavens; and those who turn many to righteousness, as the stars forever and ever."[/FONT]

 

[mailmandan]

I have never implied works of any kind are mentioned in any of these verses.

Have you not said that when faith is mentioned, baptism is implied or assumed? Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith, yet faith often gets re-defined to "include" works, such as water baptism. Hear is a statement from someone I was in a discussion with who attends the church of Christ: "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit." Do you agree with that statement? If so, then "believes in Him/believes the gospel/faith in Christ" must be re-defined to include works of obedience, which perverts the gospel of grace.

Roman Catholics make the same error. They re-define faith to "include" water baptism, partaking of the Lord's supper during the Mass, obeying His commandments etc.. I've heard Roman Catholics say we are saved through faith "infused" with works and I've heard people in the church of Christ say we are saved through faith "conjoined" with works, yet both statements are absolutely false.

I am simply pointing out the lack of a definitive clause in any of these scriptures. Without such a clause your understanding of their meaning is flawed, a emphatic stance cannot be taken or even assumed without a definitive clause. This is simple English composition and common sense.

So without the word "alone" spelled out next to "believes in Him/faith in Christ" in those passages of scripture that I quoted, the meaning of "believes in Him/faith in Christ" is somehow changed to include obedience/works? You call that simple English composition and common sense? I call it poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

Example: The postmaster promised that any tax return dropped off before midnight would be postmarked that same day.

Though there is no mention of proper postage being needed, a last minute filer could not use the argument, "I assumed the offer was based exclusively on getting the return in before midnight. I understand the importance of postage but Mr. Postmaster you cannot modify your offer now".

More faulty human logic. Either we are saved through faith or else we are saved through faith and works. You can't have it both ways. Since the Bible makes it abundantly clear in multiple passages of scripture that everyone who believes in Him/places faith in Christ for salvation "apart from additions or modifications" will receive eternal life, then we are saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. Plain and simple.

Why should He? Is it not mentioned multiple times in scripture? Why does He not explain that saving faith must be "rightly understood"? Faith is the cornerstone of salvation but not the moment of salvation.

"For by grace you have been saved through water baptism" and "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved" is NOT mentioned in scripture at all. There are a handful of verses in the Bible that works salvationists try to use as proof texts to prove that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, yet a careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation. *Faith is the cornerstone of salvation AND the moment of salvation. Otherwise, verses such as Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc.. would be false. God forbid!

Simply put, your reasoning is flawed because:

A. None of your pet verses are definitive, verses that could have been easily written as such but were not.
B. It ignores the commands of other verses that are just as definitive.

Your reasoning is flawed because faith is not baptism, faith is not multiple acts of obedience, faith is not works and faith precedes further acts of obedience/works and we are saved through faith, which is also not defined as water and works. None of your pet verses unequivocally teach that man is saved by water baptism and other works, even though "on the surface" those verses may "appear" that way to the natural man. I don't ignore the commands of other verses, but I understand them in their proper place. Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith in Christ, as all rites and works must be! Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved, for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not faith and rites or faith and religious works, or faith and good works. This does not remove acts of obedience/good works from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

If your verses were all that the Bible had to say about salvation and the forgiveness of sins, I would agree with your theology. But they are not.

So those verses that I quoted are "incomplete statements" that need to be "patched together" with other verses in order find out what God truly requires for salvation? So those passages of scripture that I quoted which clearly state what is needed for salvation leaves out certain necessary elements that are included in your pet verses, and we must pool all such statements together, if we wish to find out what God truly requires for salvation? That approach results in refusing to accept all the passages of scripture that I quoted as being true. You seem to teach that faith is just "another" step in a series of steps in a quest to receive eternal life. The passages that I quoted say specifically that the one who believe in Him/place faith in Christ for salvation will receive eternal life/salvation. Not one of those passages say that a person must also receive water baptism or accomplish a list of works before one is saved. Such passages make it clear that believes in Him/faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation. Surely, if water baptism and other works were also required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who BELIEVE IN HIM/PLACE FAITH IN CHRIST FOR SALVATION.

When promises such as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1st Peter 3:21 etc are presented you deny them as being definitive. A claim that is absurd in light of your acceptance of John 3:16, Acts 10:43, Romans 1:16 etc as definitive.

What's interesting in your pet verses above is that none of them unequivocally teach that man is saved by water baptism. I've already explained those verses above to you (and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine) and it's interesting how the Bible NEVER says "saved by grace through water baptism" or "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved." Also, in those verses above, we have repent, whoever does not believe will be condemned, calling on the name of the Lord, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So literally saved by water baptism is just not in harmony with John 3:16; Acts 10:43 or Romans 1:16 etc.. so your argument is moot.

What is your basis for calling one verse definitive and another not?

I could ask you the same question.

Why is John 3:16 an all encompassing absolute statement on salvation and Mark 16:16 is not?

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. How do you come up with salvation by "water and works" from that verse? You are forced to either turn this absolute statement into an "incomplete" statement and then "patch it together" with your pet verses in order to try and create your (flawed big picture) or else "shoe horn" baptism "into" believes in Him. Of course, both methods of hermeneutics would be erroneous.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who *does not believe will be condemned--absolute statement. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" so "baptized or condemned" is not an absolute statement on salvation. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

Once again, if water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned--absolute statement; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[DJ2]

Have you not said that when faith is mentioned, baptism is implied or assumed? Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith, yet faith often gets re-defined to "include" works, such as water baptism. Hear is a statement from someone I was in a discussion with who attends the church of Christ: "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit." Do you agree with that statement? If so, then "believes in Him/believes the gospel/faith in Christ" must be re-defined to include works of obedience, which perverts the gospel of grace.

Roman Catholics make the same error. They re-define faith to "include" water baptism, partaking of the Lord's supper during the Mass, obeying His commandments etc.. I've heard Roman Catholics say we are saved through faith "infused" with works and I've heard people in the church of Christ say we are saved through faith "conjoined" with works, yet both statements are absolutely false.

Faith is simply, faith. When Jesus said to have faith/believe in Him, that is what he meant. Believing in Jesus is believing/accepting in what the word of God said about Him.

Jesus claimed to be:

The Son of God, the Messiah, the Lamb of God, Savior.

I have no physical evidence of this being true but I have faith/believe that it is true. This is faith. It is this faith that is the foundation of salvation, it is not the point of salvation or the end of salvation (OSAS). This acceptance makes you a believer of Jesus but not His disciple.

"Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in Him, IF you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples". (John 8:31)

These Jews did not merely have "mental accent" that He existed but they believed in Him.

Faith does not equal obedience. God has not ordained faith as the point of forgiveness.

So without the word "alone" spelled out next to "believes in Him/faith in Christ" in those passages of scripture that I quoted, the meaning of "believes in Him/faith in Christ" is somehow changed to include obedience/works? You call that simple English composition and common sense? I call it poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

No, the meaning of faith stands the same. It does not include obedience or baptism. It also does not include salvation, repentance or confession. It is quite obvious that the writers of your verses are not trying to convey an all encompassing absolute statement on salvation. There were many words they could have used to present such an idea if they so desired.

More faulty human logic. Either we are saved through faith or else we are saved through faith and works. You can't have it both ways. Since the Bible makes it abundantly clear in multiple passages of scripture that everyone who believes in Him/places faith in Christ for salvation "apart from additions or modifications" will receive eternal life, then we are saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. Plain and simple.

There are many ways to express how we receive salvation; the grace of God, the Blood of Jesus Christ, Faith (rightly understood), obedience to the gospel, etc. But in the end it is God's ordained way that matters. God has decided to use water baptism as the moment of the forgiveness of sin. Verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16 are clear on this issue. God has tied the forgiveness of sins to this act, to call it anything else is wrong and dangerous. Many like yourself find this to be foolishness but it is what God has commanded. I am sure many thought gazing upon the brass snake for healing foolishness as well but never the less it was ordained.

No Bible verse stands alone, you are simply attempting to negate one verse with another. You then excuse this by claiming to harmonize scripture. You are not harmonizing, you are butchering the scriptures.

John 3:16 states we must believe to be saved, this is true.
Acts 2:38 states that we are to be baptized so that our sins will be forgiven, this is true.

Now read Mark 16:16. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." This is harmonizing scripture.

Attempting to use "whoever does not believe will be condemned" to negate the "and is baptized" is butchery.

 

[joefizz]

Faith is simply, faith. When Jesus said to have faith/believe in Him, that is what he meant. Believing in Jesus is believing/accepting in what the word of God said about Him.

Jesus claimed to be:

The Son of God, the Messiah, the Lamb of God, Savior.

I have no physical evidence of this being true but I have faith/believe that it is true. This is faith. It is this faith that is the foundation of salvation, it is not the point of salvation or the end of salvation (OSAS). This acceptance makes you a believer of Jesus but not His disciple.

"Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in Him, IF you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples". (John 8:31)

These Jews did not merely have "mental accent" that He existed but they believed in Him.

Faith does not equal obedience. God has not ordained faith as the point of forgiveness.

No, the meaning of faith stands the same. It does not include obedience or baptism. It also does not include salvation, repentance or confession. It is quite obvious that the writers of your verses are not trying to convey an all encompassing absolute statement on salvation. There were many words they could have used to present such an idea if they so desired.

There are many ways to express how we receive salvation; the grace of God, the Blood of Jesus Christ, Faith (rightly understood), obedience to the gospel, etc. But in the end it is God's ordained way that matters. God has decided to use water baptism as the moment of the forgiveness of sin. Verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16 are clear on this issue. God has tied the forgiveness of sins to this act, to call it anything else is wrong and dangerous. Many like yourself find this to be foolishness but it is what God has commanded. I am sure many thought gazing upon the brass snake for healing foolishness as well but never the less it was ordained.

No Bible verse stands alone, you are simply attempting to negate one verse with another. You then excuse this by claiming to harmonize scripture. You are not harmonizing, you are butchering the scriptures.

John 3:16 states we must believe to be saved, this is true.
Acts 2:38 states that we are to be baptized so that our sins will be forgiven, this is true.

Now read Mark 16:16. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." This is harmonizing scripture.

Attempting to use "whoever does not believe will be condemned" to negate the "and is baptized" is butchery.

You seem to not understand the overall bigger picture,through Jesus we now "can be saved" and Jesus is now the mediator between us and God,and don't forget that there are in fact 2 baptisms in the bible that of water,and that of the holy spirit,once one accepts Jesus as saviour and asks for their soul to be saved thereby receiving the holy spirit that individual has been baptized of the holy spirit which is far greater than mere water baptism for remember John the Baptist he at first "refused" to water baptize Jesus because in his own words"he had need to be baptized of Jesus"(in other words the holy spirit)
this showing that though John baptized with water and it through God forgave sin,far greater was it to be baptized of the holy spirit for then in essence Jesus abides in that individual,and so can be forgiven of their sins by way of Jesus "without" need of "water baptism" for once You have Jesus in you how does one need to seek further baptism for forgiveness of sins when one can seek forgiveness from Jesus and him beseech God to forgive us of our sins?
For indeec to be "baptized in Christ's name is to be buried with him and believe that he is risen"
but of which baptism is of greater importance,baptism of the holy spirit or water baptism,for if the holy spirit be not a great enough gift allowing one to be closer with Christ the Lord,thereby allowing forgiveness of sins then why do many seek Jesus before being water baptized?
Are they foolish to Seek Jesus first before they seek a form of forgiveness,Nay for Jesus is the way,the truth,and the life/light,none come to the father but "through him",water baptism is not a waste it is a way to seek forgiveness of sins seeking a clean slate,but doth Jesus himself have power to forgive sin without need of ceremony?
Yes indeed.
For what of they who are in a dry barren wasteland need they be baptized of water in scorching heat to have Jesus forgive their sins,or what of they in lands of bitter cold need they be baptized in a pool of freezing water or ice to have Jesus forgive their sins?
to both the answer is no,to accept Jesus is to accept that he is saviour if ye beseech him to forgive thine sins then it can be forgiven,and further more the holy spirit once accepted thereby being baptized of it, leads one to seek Jesus and seek to do right for him,so water baptism can be a moot(unnecessary) action depending on the individual's choice.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is simply, faith. When Jesus said to have faith/believe in Him, that is what he meant. Believing in Jesus is believing/accepting in what the word of God said about Him.

Jesus claimed to be:

The Son of God, the Messiah, the Lamb of God, Savior.

I have no physical evidence of this being true but I have faith/believe that it is true. This is faith.

To have faith/believe in Him consists of more than simply believing in the existence and historical facts about Christ from the Bible to be true. Even the demons believe that, yet they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, not in Jesus, and your trust and reliance is in "water and works" for salvation and NOT exclusively in Jesus. This is where you miss the mark.

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" pisteuō can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. *Saving faith must include "trust and reliance" in Christ alone for salvation.

It is this faith that is the foundation of salvation, it is not the point of salvation or the end of salvation (OSAS).

Faith is the foundation of salvation, the point of salvation and the end of salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS, but since you trust in works to obtain and maintain your salvation, you simply cannot grasp this truth.

This acceptance makes you a believer of Jesus but not His disciple.

This acceptance of Jesus through faith makes you a believer and His disciple.

"Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in Him, IF you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples". (John 8:31)

*Notice IF you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine. Those who do not continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples. "I'm a genuine believer but not truly a disciple of Jesus is an oxymoron."

After Jesus’ teaching of eating is flesh and drinking His blood in John 6:53-59, we read in 6:60 that many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue.

These Jews did not merely have "mental accent" that He existed but they believed in Him.

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus which "falls short of genuine, consummated belief that results in salvation." In John 8:31-59 we see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be:

slaves to sin (verse 34)
indifferent to the words of Jesus, looking to kill Him (verse 37)
had no love for Jesus (verse 43)
children of the devil (verse 44)
liars (verse 55)
guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (verse 59).

You call that TRULY believing in Him? Is that consummated belief in Jesus that results in salvation? NO! So in what sense did they believe in Him? Apparently they believed in Him based on their own misconceptions of who Jesus truly was and what His purpose truly was, so their belief was superficial in nature, as Jesus pointed out.

Faith does not equal obedience.

Amen! Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Obedience which follows is works.

God has not ordained faith as the point of forgiveness.

Yes He has. Saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) justified by faith (Romans 5:1). The point of forgiveness begins at the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

No, the meaning of faith stands the same. It does not include obedience or baptism.

Amen! So why can't you accept those multiple passages of scripture that I quoted which make it clear we are saved through believing in Him/Faith? Why do you continue to "add additional requirements" (works) to "salvation through faith" if you truly believe the meaning of faith stands the same and does not include obedience or baptism?

It also does not include salvation, repentance or confession.

We are saved through faith so faith includes salvation and repentance is already included in the sense that it already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to place our faith in Christ for salvation. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ. Confession is included in the sense that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation (believes today but still lost/confess next week and finally saved next week) but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” *TOGETHER* (that is, the word of faith which we preach).

It is quite obvious that the writers of your verses are not trying to convey an all encompassing absolute statement on salvation. There were many words they could have used to present such an idea if they so desired.

The writer of the multiple verses that I quoted on salvation through belief/faith are conveying an all encompassing absolute statement on salvation on man's part. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a work for salvation that follows faith in Christ and confession is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. In your 4 step plan of salvation, you have belief, repent, (you reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe) confess, get baptized. According to you, salvation does not take place until one is baptized, yet in Romans 10:10, Paul said believes unto righteousness/confession unto salvatio"chronologically together" and BEFORE water baptism, which refutes your argument on not receiving salvation until after one is water baptized.

There are many ways to express how we receive salvation; the grace of God, the Blood of Jesus Christ, Faith (rightly understood), obedience to the gospel, etc. But in the end it is God's ordained way that matters.

We have God's part and we have man's part in receiving salvation. The grace of God and the Blood of Jesus Christ is obviously God's part and faith is man's part. Obedience to the gospel is just another way of saying we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16).

God has decided to use water baptism as the moment of the forgiveness of sin.

False. The church of Christ has brain washed you to believe that. The forgiveness of sins is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in water baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

Verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16 are clear on this issue.

It's clear that "on the surface" these verses may "appear" to teach what you believe (Roman Catholics and Mormons and other works salvationists would agree with you), but after reading these verses in context and properly harmonizing them with the multiple passages of scripture that I quoted which make it crystal clear man is saved through belief/faith, it's clear that these verses show that baptism is associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

God has tied the forgiveness of sins to this act, to call it anything else is wrong and dangerous. Many like yourself find this to be foolishness but it is what God has commanded. I am sure many thought gazing upon the brass snake for healing foolishness as well but never the less it was ordained.

To call water baptism the basis by which we receive the forgiveness of sins and the means of our salvation is wrong and dangerous. Many life yourself find salvation through believing in Christ to be foolishness. 1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

No Bible verse stands alone, you are simply attempting to negate one verse with another. You then excuse this by claiming to harmonize scripture. You are not harmonizing, you are butchering the scriptures.

I am properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. You are distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

John 3:16 states we must believe to be saved, this is true.

Amen! *What happened to baptism?

Acts 2:38 states that we are to be baptized so that our sins will be forgiven, this is true.

False. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. *Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Now read Mark 16:16. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." This is harmonizing scripture.

No, this is harmonizing scripture - *Jesus clarifies the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. So he who believes and is baptized will be saved--(general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized). The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

Attempting to use "whoever does not believe will be condemned" to negate the "and is baptized" is butchery.

Attempting to use "and is baptized" to negate "whoever does not believe will be condemned" and forcing Mark 16:16 to teach "whoever is not baptized will be condemned" is butchery. Also, attempting to use "and is baptized" to negate John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,48; 11:25,26 is also butchery.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[DJ2]

To have faith/believe in Him consists of more than simply believing in the existence and historical facts about Christ from the Bible to be true. Even the demons believe that, yet they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, not in Jesus, and your trust and reliance is in "water and works" for salvation and NOT exclusively in Jesus. This is where you miss the mark.

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*;abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" pisteuō can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. *Saving faith must include "trust and reliance" in Christ alone for salvation

Your answers are like a lawyer attempting to find loopholes in a contract. Trying to stretch the meaning of words to fit a certain narrative. We know what believe means, we do not need your "by implication". The only thing your "by implication" proves is your "trust only" bias.

Faith is the foundation of salvation, the point of salvation and the end of salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS, but since you trust in works to obtain and maintain your salvation, you simply cannot grasp this truth.

Again, if faith is the point of salvation verses such as Acts 2:38 should not exist. If faith is the point of salvation bizarre and twisted interpretations must be employed to brush aside these verses. These verses expose the nonsensical basis of trust only regeneration theology.

*Notice IF you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine. Those who do not continuein His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples. "I'm a genuine believer but not truly a disciple of Jesus is an oxymoron."

After Jesus’ teaching of eating is flesh and drinking His blood in John 6:53-59, we read in 6:60 that many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue.

This verse does not qualify the type of believers they were and neither should you. The point of the verse is that you can be a believer but not a disciple.

You call that TRULY believing in Him? Is that consummated belief in Jesus that results in salvation? NO! So in what sense did they believe in Him? Apparently they believed in Him based on their own misconceptions of who Jesus truly was and what His purpose truly was, so their belief was superficial in nature, as Jesus pointed out.

It does not matter what I call it, the Bible calls it belief. Whatever faith they had it did not equal being a disciple but it was enough to call them believers not misguided believers, just believers in Him.

Yes He has. Saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) justified by faith (Romans 5:1). The point of forgiveness begins at the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Yes we are forgiven of sins by faith but when? When has God ordained this moment to be? You say at some point during our journey of faith. I agree. I say that point is baptism and Acts 2:38 backs this up.

Note that none of your verses answers the question of when do we receive the forgiveness to sins, just the why we are forgiven.

We are saved through faith so faith includes salvation and repentance is already included in the sense that it already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to place our faith in Christ for salvation. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ. Confession is included in the sense that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation (believes today but still lost/confess next week and finally saved next week) but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” *TOGETHER* (that is, the word of faith which we preach).

Many may believe but not repent, many may believe and not confess. Stretching the word "believe" to include the assumption of these physical acts is wrong.

The writer of the multiple verses that I quoted on salvation through belief/faith are conveying an all encompassing absolute statement on salvation on man's part.

This is the crux of the heresy of trust only regeneration theology. Taking verses that are not written in a definitive matter and slapping a all encompassing absolute statement of salvation on them. Using this self imposed label as a excuse to ignore or twist the other verses that clearly promise remission of sins. Never giving a reason as to the criteria for such decisions.

False. The church of Christ has brain washed you to believe that. The forgiveness of sins is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in water baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

You do not know me or my background, I am far from "brainwashed". As for your repeated reliance on AT Robertson, I suggest you find another guru.

It's clear that "on the surface" these verses may "appear" to teach what you believe (Roman Catholics and Mormons and other works salvationists would agree with you), but after reading these verses in context and properly harmonizing them with the multiple passages of scripture that I quoted which make it crystal clear man is saved through belief/faith, it's clear that these verses show that baptism is associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

These verses do not "appear to teach" they are teaching. These verses are not "on the surface" they are interwoven throughout the Bible. These verses are not written to show association with the forgiveness of sins, they are expressed as the point of the forgiveness of sins.

Who would write such a thing as, "repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven" but really mean "repent and be baptized because your sins are forgiven"? No one of course but to prop up a faith only fallacy it must be accepted as such.

To call water baptism the basis by which we receive the forgiveness of sins and the means of our salvation is wrong and dangerous. Many life yourself find salvation through believing in Christ to be foolishness. 1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe

There is no merit in baptism to warrant boasting. But I have met some who believe by virtue of their "rightly understanding" the true nature of trust only theology have much to boast about.

False. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis

"Repent and be baptized so that your sins may be forgiven", how can you not see the absurdness of your attempt to twist such a simple passage? If this passage can be interpreted in such a fashion, nothing in the Bible is safe.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins

In other words, just ignore what Peter said.

On your reasoning that the latter part of Mark 16:16 negates the former part of the same verse is truly mind numbing. You would never accept this reasoning in any other such passage.

 

[mailmandan]

Your answers are like a lawyer attempting to find loopholes in a contract. Trying to stretch the meaning of words to fit a certain narrative. We know what believe means, we do not need your "by implication". The only thing your "by implication" proves is your "trust only" bias.

Again, if faith is the point of salvation verses such as Acts 2:38 should not exist. If faith is the point of salvation bizarre and twisted interpretations must be employed to brush aside these verses. These verses expose the nonsensical basis of trust only regeneration theology.

This verse does not qualify the type of believers they were and neither should you. The point of the verse is that you can be a believer but not a disciple.

It does not matter what I call it, the Bible calls it belief. Whatever faith they had it did not equal being a disciple but it was enough to call them believers not misguided believers, just believers in Him.

Yes we are forgiven of sins by faith but when? When has God ordained this moment to be? You say at some point during our journey of faith. I agree. I say that point is baptism and Acts 2:38 backs this up.

Note that none of your verses answers the question of when do we receive the forgiveness to sins, just the why we are forgiven.

Many may believe but not repent, many may believe and not confess. Stretching the word "believe" to include the assumption of these physical acts is wrong.

This is the crux of the heresy of trust only regeneration theology. Taking verses that are not written in a definitive matter and slapping a all encompassing absolute statement of salvation on them. Using this self imposed label as a excuse to ignore or twist the other verses that clearly promise remission of sins. Never giving a reason as to the criteria for such decisions.

You do not know me or my background, I am far from "brainwashed". As for your repeated reliance on AT Robertson, I suggest you find another guru.

These verses do not "appear to teach" they are teaching. These verses are not "on the surface" they are interwoven throughout the Bible. These verses are not written to show association with the forgiveness of sins, they are expressed as the point of the forgiveness of sins.

Who would write such a thing as, "repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven" but really mean "repent and be baptized because your sins are forgiven"? No one of course but to prop up a faith only fallacy it must be accepted as such.

There is no merit in baptism to warrant boasting. But I have met some who believe by virtue of their "rightly understanding" the true nature of trust only theology have much to boast about.

"Repent and be baptized so that your sins may be forgiven", how can you not see the absurdness of your attempt to twist such a simple passage? If this passage can be interpreted in such a fashion, nothing in the Bible is safe.

In other words, just ignore what Peter said.

On your reasoning that the latter part of Mark 16:16 negates the former part of the same verse is truly mind numbing. You would never accept this reasoning in any other such passage.

You just don't get it.

I have thoroughly refuted your arguments numerous times and I have also thoroughly explained the truth to you about the plan of salvation, but unfortunately, the truth just continues to go right over your head and there is a reason for that--(1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

If the truth is what you are looking for, then you will find it in the multiple posts that I have already shared with you. If accommodating your biased church doctrine is the only thing you are interested in, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you and I'm getting tired of wasting my time beating a dead horse.

There is really not much left for me to do except continue to pray for you and shake the dust off my shoes and move on.

 

[joefizz]

Reboot......