Some help and civility please...rapture??

[FlSnookman7]

Since we have a great "not by works" op I was hoping to start a rapture one as well. I am not in any way, shape or form and expert on the subject. I would welcome all pre, post, mid tribbers as well as those who believe that it has already occurred and any other thoughts on the subject. I would however ask that we remain civil and not attack one another's posts. We are mostly all Christians so we should first keep our love for one another in mind. Uplifting each other is more important than being right. I would ask, if possible that the replies be kept to two paragraphs or less if at all possible. Thanks!

 

[FlSnookman7]

Oooops, never mind there already is a rapture op....sorry.

 

[unobtrusive]

Since we have a great "not by works" op I was hoping to start a rapture one as well. I am not in any way, shape or form and expert on the subject. I would welcome all pre, post, mid tribbers as well as those who believe that it has already occurred and any other thoughts on the subject. I would however ask that we remain civil and not attack one another's posts. We are mostly all Christians so we should first keep our love for one another in mind. Uplifting each other is more important than being right. I would ask, if possible that the replies be kept to two paragraphs or less if at all possible. Thanks!

Rapture is not a Biblical term. Nevertheless, we will be taken up into the clouds with Jesus Christ when the time comes. With that said, Jesus made it clear that this would happen after the tribulation.

Notice the relationships between these three scripture references.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

Heaven = οὐρανός through the idea of elevation by extension, implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity).

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" (Ephesians 2:6)

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
(1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Immediately after the tribulation. Scripture speaks for itself.

 

[unobtrusive]

Oooops, never mind there already is a rapture op....sorry.

Not a problem. Usually 2 are better than one except for polygamy. LOL

 

[valiant]

Rapture is not a Biblical term. Nevertheless, we will be taken up into the clouds with Jesus Christ when the time comes. With that said, Jesus made it clear that this would happen after the tribulation.

Notice the relationships between these three scripture references.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

Heaven = οὐρανός through the idea of elevation by extension, implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity).

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" (Ephesians 2:6)

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
(1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Immediately after the tribulation. Scripture speaks for itself.

the problem is that the great tribulation spoken of was coming on the Jews in c 70 AD and continuing though the centuries. It was not an end time event.,

 

[dcontroversal]

the problem is that the great tribulation spoken of was coming on the Jews in c 70 AD and continuing though the centuries. It was not an end time event.,

Except for the fact that Daniel 12 ties it to 1335 days..........

 

[unobtrusive]

the problem is that the great tribulation spoken of was coming on the Jews in c 70 AD and continuing though the centuries. It was not an end time event.,

Yes, I quoted Matthew chapter 24. In context let's look at the beginning of the chapter, in relation to the 70 AD , continuing through the centuries. They actually asked about "the end of the world." I believe most prophecy has a duality (then and now). Many things have happened, and will happen again in like manner according to God's righteous judgements. There are many examples but I'll keep it confined to this particular one.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matthew 24:3)

"World" meaning αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

G104 is continued duration
G5550 designates a fixed or special occasion concerning "time." A particular period or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay.

Jesus is defining when the tribulation is done, not only in 70 AD, but right now. In 70 AD the trumpet didn’t sound, and the angels didn't come as Jesus didn't come in the clouds as He said in verses 29 thru 31 of Matthew chapter 24.
[SUP]
[SUB]29 [/SUB][/SUP]Immediately "after" the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[SUP]
30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I would ask, if possible that the replies be kept to two paragraphs or less if at all possible. Thanks!

How about a fraction of a paragraph? John 14:1-3. This is the IMMINENT Rapture of the saints. No trouble or tribulation in view.


1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rapture is not a Biblical term.

Actually it is and derived from the Latin rapiemur = caught up together.

 

[unobtrusive]

Definition for "Rapture."
ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

αἱρέομαι hairéomai, hahee-reh'-om-ahee; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:—choose.

Time sequence unknown.

 

[Mem]

I do appreciate that a new thread on the rapture was started, as there's no way I could really "catch up" (badomp tishh) with the other.

Before I am convince of the rapture as it is commonly accepted, could someone address the man that Paul knew that was "caught up" in 2 Corinthians and why could he not say whether it was in the body or out of it?

In considering this, I think of Shadrach, Meschach, and Abedneggo and how these might've been caught up of a kind into a sort of different, a fourth perhaps, dimension where they are neither here nor there but in The Presence of the LORD.

 

[tourist]

I used to read a lot of Hal Lindsey who wrote much about this topic and used to find it credible. I do believe that the dead will rise to meet Jesus but if this occurs it will probably be after the events to the great tribulation play out. I do believe that a 7 year treaty will be signed by a country that will guarantee the security of Israel for a seven year period but in the middle of the treaty it will be broken. I also believe that the Two Witnesses will be walking the earth but this really have nothing to do with a rapture, pre, mid, post or otherwise. I don't really see any scriptural support for a rapture but that doesn't mean that such an event will not happen. I hope it does happen and that it happens today. Or tomorrow.

 

[tourist]

the problem is that the great tribulation spoken of was coming on the Jews in c 70 AD and continuing though the centuries. It was not an end time event.,

Except for the fact that Daniel 12 ties it to 1335 days..........

Exactly, definitely an end-time event. There is also the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks to be played out. There may have been a tribulation in 70 AD but it certainly was not 'great' by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Locutus]

Before I am convince of the rapture as it is commonly accepted, could someone address the man that Paul knew that was "caught up" in 2 Corinthians and why could he not say whether it was in the body or out of it?

Hit the nail right on the head here.

 

[heartofdavid]

Rapture is not a Biblical term. Nevertheless, we will be taken up into the clouds with Jesus Christ when the time comes. With that said, Jesus made it clear that this would happen after the tribulation.

Notice the relationships between these three scripture references.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

Heaven = οὐρανός through the idea of elevation by extension, implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity).

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" (Ephesians 2:6)

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
(1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Immediately after the tribulation. Scripture speaks for itself.

Note that that ENTIRE THEORY relies on heaven not being heaven.

Pretty shaky. Why not explore the obvious?

 

[heartofdavid]

...if we change heaven into heaven,what then?

 

[heartofdavid]

After the tribulation?

Ok,lets play that out.

Jesus on a horse...check

Saints on horses with him...check

Destroyed earth....check

Saints on earth all martyred for refusing mark...check

No resurrection...check

Bride is now called the wife....check

No saints returning to heaven....check

Jesus coming in judgement and executioner on a horse...check


Ok,now,what have we learned?

Not to study the actual rapture,because it fits NONE of the above .

 

[dcontroversal]

There is a definite Parousia (Coming/Body Presence) of Christ where the dead saints are raised and the saints left alive are change Ana-stasis (resurrection) which according to Paul (under inspiration) takes place after the apo-hystamie (apostasy) and the Man of Sin being (Son of Perdition/Beast/Little Horn/Anti-Christ SO called) revealed as god sitting on a throne claiming to be God and worshipped as God.

Interesting concept.....Satan has been attempting this repeatedly without success because it was hindered by God because it was not yet time......

SATAN--->Horus--->Bel----->Marduke---->Merodach_--->Jupiter--->Zeus---->Allah----->Satan!

 

[unobtrusive]

Note that that ENTIRE THEORY relies on heaven not being heaven.

Pretty shaky. Why not explore the obvious?

Where are we going after we are caught up into the clouds with Jesus? Heaven or earth? Is the New Jerusalem going up to heaven or down to earth?

 

[MarcR]

the problem is that the great tribulation spoken of was coming on the Jews in c 70 AD and continuing though the centuries. It was not an end time event.,

You are correct; but we must remember that it is not unusual for prophesy to have dual or multiple fulfillments.

The words translated as tribulation are Tsar Hebrew and Thlipsis Greek. Both mean persecution of God's people by the world.

The tribulation of Mt 13:21 was probably fulfilled both under Nero and again under Vespatian and Titus 70AD, and by Diocletian 245AD

The great tribulation of Mt chapter 24 is probably identical with the end time tribulation of Revelation; which probably refers to the persecution of the church by the beast before the rapture.

I believe that the rapture occurs after the sixth seal is opened.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

I believe that the fifth seal has already been opened.

 

[unobtrusive]

You are correct; but we must remember that it is not unusual for prophesy to have dual or multiple fulfillments.

The words translated as tribulation are Tsar Hebrew and Thlipsis Greek. Both mean persecution of God's people by the world.

The tribulation of Mt 13:21 was probably fulfilled both under Nero and again under Vespatian and Titus 70AD, and by Diocletian 245AD

The great tribulation of Mt chapter 24 is probably identical with the end time tribulation of Revelation; which probably refers to the persecution of the church by the beast before the rapture.

I believe that the rapture occurs after the sixth seal is opened.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

I believe that the fifth seal has already been opened.

Good analogy my friend. At the very least, the 4 horsemen are riding. Probably for quite some time now.