Where Does Jesus Speak about the Millennium (Continued)
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but those who remained in Jerusalem in ad66-70 didn't worship Rome(the beast) they revolted instead. and they did not use Rome's money after ad66 they minted their own. How do you see them as fulfilling the wrath of God on them for worshipping Rome when they didn't or buying and selling with Rome's money if they minted their own?
good night,,,
good night,,,
H
Impossible
Rev 18;20 [FONT="]Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.[/FONT][FONT="]21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
All those things are still operating in Jerusalem.
You didn't factor in the last verses.[/FONT]
Rev 18;20 [FONT="]Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.[/FONT][FONT="]21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
All those things are still operating in Jerusalem.
You didn't factor in the last verses.[/FONT]
Well, let's take a look at chapter 17 and see.
By oldhermit
The Judgment of Babylon the Great and the Beast, 1-14
A. Identifying Babylon the Great
It is argued by many that Babylon the Great can only be Rome. Others attempt to connect Babylon the Great to the Roman Catholic Church. This notion is so far-fetched that I am not even going to spend any time dealing with it. Since there are only two figures in this scene I think it much more expedient to simply to explain who they are rather than who they are not. As I have already pointed out, Babylon is identified as Jerusalem and Rome is the beast, but to answer the first assumption that Babylon is Jerusalem, let us note some reasons from scripture that confirm this connection.
Verse sixteen tells us that the beast hated the harlot so, these are clearly opposing entities. Rome cannot be both the beast and the harlot. The hatred of the beast for the harlot certainly agrees with the animosity that existed between Rome and Judea. Since Rome never shared a spiritual relationship with God, there is no room to suggest that Rome was the harlot of this text. Rome was never regarded by God as the "once faithful city." This chapter says that the harlot was once the faithful city of God and this was certainly never true of Rome. The theme of the book of Revelation is not concerned with Rome or the Roman Empire as its central character. Rome was only an incidental instrument of God by which Jerusalem's judgment would be executed.
B. Chapter seventeen is another scene of Jerusalem's judgment but in chapter seventeen we find something that is not given in the other chapters depicting this same event. In this chapter, the angel provides us with more clear definitions of the symbols.
“Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”
1. The subject of the scene is judgment. and the object of the judgment is the “great harlot.” This is not the first time God uses the word harlot to describe a nation but here, uses this term to describe a once faithful city. God said of Nineveh, “All because of the many harlotries of the harlot, the charming one, the mistress of sorceries, who sells nations by her harlotries and families by her sorceries. Behold, I am against you,” declares the LORD of hosts...” Nahum 3:4-5. Like Nineveh, Jerusalem became a harlot when she began to prefer other nations to Jehovah.
2. She is depicted as sitting upon many waters. This imagery is taken directly from Jeremiah 51:13 in which God pronounces his judgment upon the actual ancient city of Babylon. It is fitting that John uses this imagery in speaking of Jerusalem as Babylon. The “sitting upon many waters” is used by Jeremiah as a symbol depicting the wealth that Babylon had amassed as a result of trade alliances with the other nations. Jerusalem is accused of doing the same thing with the allied nations of Rome, consequently,
she is guilty of immorality with the nations. Her desire was not in the Lord, it was to be like the nations around her. This desire seems to be amplified in the fact that “the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality” with her “and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality
C. The woman sitting on the scarlet beast, 3-6
1. The woman is the harlot, Babylon, Jerusalem.
2. The beast is Rome represented in scarlet. Scarlet may be a representation of the sinful character of the beast. God had used this imagery in the past to describe the sinful conditions of Judah and Jerusalem in Isaiah 1:18. It may also be used to depict royalty.
3. The beast was full of blasphemous names. In other words, Rome was full of irreverence and reproach against God and his people.
4. The beast had seven heads and ten horns. This is more fully described in verses 9-14.
5. The woman was beautifully adorned in royal apparel. Ezekiel 16:10-14,
“I also clothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk. I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands and a necklace around your neck. I also put a ring in your nostril, earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dress was of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD.”
6. Her cup was full of abominations of unclean things and immorality, Read Ezekiel 16:15-43 and see how God described the harlotry of ancient Israel. There was no difference between the behavior of ancient Israel and Israel of the first century and the fate of both were the same.
7. Her name is “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” She was the source of every type of unclean behavior.
8. She is a murderous woman, a destroyer of the saints. More than that, she had acquired an unrelenting appetite for destroying those whom God had sent to her. Killing the saints and the prophets had become an intoxicating addiction. “I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.” Jesus makes this same accusation against Jerusalem in Matthew 23:34-38. “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!”
By oldhermit
The Judgment of Babylon the Great and the Beast, 1-14
A. Identifying Babylon the Great
It is argued by many that Babylon the Great can only be Rome. Others attempt to connect Babylon the Great to the Roman Catholic Church. This notion is so far-fetched that I am not even going to spend any time dealing with it. Since there are only two figures in this scene I think it much more expedient to simply to explain who they are rather than who they are not. As I have already pointed out, Babylon is identified as Jerusalem and Rome is the beast, but to answer the first assumption that Babylon is Jerusalem, let us note some reasons from scripture that confirm this connection.
Verse sixteen tells us that the beast hated the harlot so, these are clearly opposing entities. Rome cannot be both the beast and the harlot. The hatred of the beast for the harlot certainly agrees with the animosity that existed between Rome and Judea. Since Rome never shared a spiritual relationship with God, there is no room to suggest that Rome was the harlot of this text. Rome was never regarded by God as the "once faithful city." This chapter says that the harlot was once the faithful city of God and this was certainly never true of Rome. The theme of the book of Revelation is not concerned with Rome or the Roman Empire as its central character. Rome was only an incidental instrument of God by which Jerusalem's judgment would be executed.
B. Chapter seventeen is another scene of Jerusalem's judgment but in chapter seventeen we find something that is not given in the other chapters depicting this same event. In this chapter, the angel provides us with more clear definitions of the symbols.
“Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”
1. The subject of the scene is judgment. and the object of the judgment is the “great harlot.” This is not the first time God uses the word harlot to describe a nation but here, uses this term to describe a once faithful city. God said of Nineveh, “All because of the many harlotries of the harlot, the charming one, the mistress of sorceries, who sells nations by her harlotries and families by her sorceries. Behold, I am against you,” declares the LORD of hosts...” Nahum 3:4-5. Like Nineveh, Jerusalem became a harlot when she began to prefer other nations to Jehovah.
2. She is depicted as sitting upon many waters. This imagery is taken directly from Jeremiah 51:13 in which God pronounces his judgment upon the actual ancient city of Babylon. It is fitting that John uses this imagery in speaking of Jerusalem as Babylon. The “sitting upon many waters” is used by Jeremiah as a symbol depicting the wealth that Babylon had amassed as a result of trade alliances with the other nations. Jerusalem is accused of doing the same thing with the allied nations of Rome, consequently,
she is guilty of immorality with the nations. Her desire was not in the Lord, it was to be like the nations around her. This desire seems to be amplified in the fact that “the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality” with her “and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality
C. The woman sitting on the scarlet beast, 3-6
1. The woman is the harlot, Babylon, Jerusalem.
2. The beast is Rome represented in scarlet. Scarlet may be a representation of the sinful character of the beast. God had used this imagery in the past to describe the sinful conditions of Judah and Jerusalem in Isaiah 1:18. It may also be used to depict royalty.
3. The beast was full of blasphemous names. In other words, Rome was full of irreverence and reproach against God and his people.
4. The beast had seven heads and ten horns. This is more fully described in verses 9-14.
5. The woman was beautifully adorned in royal apparel. Ezekiel 16:10-14,
“I also clothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk. I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands and a necklace around your neck. I also put a ring in your nostril, earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dress was of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD.”
6. Her cup was full of abominations of unclean things and immorality, Read Ezekiel 16:15-43 and see how God described the harlotry of ancient Israel. There was no difference between the behavior of ancient Israel and Israel of the first century and the fate of both were the same.
7. Her name is “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” She was the source of every type of unclean behavior.
8. She is a murderous woman, a destroyer of the saints. More than that, she had acquired an unrelenting appetite for destroying those whom God had sent to her. Killing the saints and the prophets had become an intoxicating addiction. “I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.” Jesus makes this same accusation against Jerusalem in Matthew 23:34-38. “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!”
Perhaps I should have been a bit more clear on this point. When I speak of other sources, I am not talking about historical sources of research. I am talking about Bible sources. I did not consult commentaries or other biblical sources (other than language aids for the original languages). The only thing I had gained from this approach in the past was a mass of diverse and contradictory opinions. This of course does not mean that I do not consult them now from time to time, but in the interest of not polluting my mind with the opinions of others, I determined to rely on the Bible as my only source since this is the only revealed and inspired source of truth. What I have found is that if you want to know the Bible, then study the Bible and not books written about the Bible.
at the end the accusation that Jesus made about who he would send are these included in those whose blood is being spoken of or are they after this and when it was ask how long until it was reconciled they were told to wait until those who would be killed afterwards has been fulfilled? Are the apostles included in the first group or the next?
If I understand your question correctly, it would seem, since all of this is related to the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, that this would include all those saints whose blood was on the hands of Jerusalem. This would certainly include those of the apostles and the prophets such as Stephen, who had been slain in Jerusalem. Even Paul admitted that as a Pharisee, he had men responsible for the death of many of the saints in Jerusalem.
Peter was, according to the best tradition, killed in AD 67 presumably in Jerusalem and Paul was killed in Rome in the Neronian persecution in AD 64. Of course this all a matter of tradition. We really do not have any information that can give us any solid conformation of where or how they died. We do know that Paul tells Timothy in 2Tim. while he was imprisoned in Rome that his time was at hand and 2Tim was written in AD 64.
when any of these books were penned are at odds among scholars but in Revelation 6;10 and Deuteronomy 21:1-9 the blood is in question as to when it will be avenged by God. In Revelation they are told to "wait" so either Steven,Peter,Paul ect. are in group 1 or they are in the second group that are told to wait. so from Matthew 23;34 which group do you think they fall into?
Still waiting for proof that all of the characteristics in Revelation that are applied unto Babylon to be applied biblically unto Jerusalem....they cannot....and God does not burn his heritage with fire, but rather defends it, preserves it and Jesus will step down on the Mount of Olives as the Lion of Judah to defend and destroy ALL who come against Jerusalem.....Jerusalem IS NOT MYSTERY BABYLON......!