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Thread: Lets talk about Paul

  1. #201
    Senior Member JaumeJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Do not teach that claptrap in any assembly that worships Christ. Perverting God's perfecting each of us to being disobedient wrkmanship of God is really a twisting of the truth to the nth power, unheard of, and not to be done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    Being obedient isn't even about us.

    We are the workmanship of God when we come to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Obedience is a gift.


    Am I obedient? No. I'm not personally obedient. But I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will complete His Work in me and I will be perfectly obedient in His Time and His Will.

    Am I sometimes obedient? Yes. Am I sometimes not obedient? Yes. So if I am sometimes not obedient what does that mean?

    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    That's obedience. Are you doing it?
    Rainrider and unobtrusive like this.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


  2. #202
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    So do you do it? Do you obey?

    Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Flesh people can't be perfect according to their work at the law. This should be abundantly clear by now.


    So we have all these Judaizers that claim to be obedient to the law but they aren't.

    There is a secret to obedience and it is contained in Salvation. There is a secret to all of our blessings and none of them are contained in the law because we don't obey the law to the extent that is required to be owed this blessing.

    There's not an extra blessing in trying your hardest to obey your own understanding of the law. All of our blessings are in Christ.

    Philippians 3:8-14
    8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
    13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    If you want to talk about Paul you can't ignore his teaching of leaving the law behind in favor of the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Unless you have a certain agenda. Or you just don't understand.

    I agree may all leave the law behind in favour of Grace of our Lord and Saviour. Then they will love and obey Him because He loves them.

    The New wine is better but let us remember the Old was to bring the New...

    Paul taught the New Covenant in place of the Old Covenant..
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  3. #203
    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    If you persist in using such a translation then expect further questions - people are not going to go back to your first post when they are reading page 51 - just saying...
    It wasn't the first post, just the the one after the first chapter of Rom. I have so found that some is going to question any translation I use, if they can find nothing more to try discrete eh study or the writer. Seen way to many times.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    Do not teach that claptrap in any assembly that worships Christ. Perverting God's perfecting each of us to being disobedient wrkmanship of God is really a twisting of the truth to the nth power, unheard of, and not to be done.
    So far you haven't shown you even know what worshipping Christ is.

    John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    Obedience is a gift of God. It is a blessing of Christ.

    Galatians 5:4-5
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

  5. #205
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Now this relates to my previous reply to your previous post just like all of your posts, not even near on topic. You have managed another accusation though, again, typical of your attention span.

    It seems you have my sleep schedule down, happily no one else has posted whils I selpt and others plotted.. God bless you and all of those grans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    So far you haven't shown you even know what worshipping Christ is.

    John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    Obedience is a gift of God. It is a blessing of Christ.

    Galatians 5:4-5
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    Rainrider likes this.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


  6. #206
    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    1 Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised?
    2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God.
    3 If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God's faithfulness?

    We see this pattern of questions and answers in Paul's writings. As with many that teach an unpopular theology, over time you learn what kinds of response you will get to some things. So it is that Paul will ask the question before hand, then answer it. This form of teaching saves time, as the questions you know will come are answered before hand. As we sen in chapter 2, Paul had just talked of circumcision. Not all of what he said was giving parse to the the Jews. Knowing this would bring up the questions he now places before us, he answers them. As to the advantage the Jews people had, it is that they possessed the Torah. Yet to have a thing like that, can also become a disadvantage. You see, when you have it and don't follow it. Yet, (as many Jewish people thought) you follow the idea that circumcision is all one needs to enter life, It is at that point that it becomes a disadvantage.
    One may read this and think that Paul is taking a devil may care attitude toward the ones that are unfaithful. This how ever is not his intent. Or at lest I don't see that way. He is however making the point that even we do fall, HaShem in His faithfulness, will forgive us.
    4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! - as the Tanakh says, "so that you, God, may be proved right in your words and win the verdict when you are put on trial."

    5 Now if our unrighteousness highlights God's righteousness, what should we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict his anger on us? (I am speaking here the way people commonly do.)
    6 Heaven forbid! Else, how could God judge the world?

    In making his point Paul quotes Ps.51:4. Just as David had place HaShem on trial in his own mind, we do the same. Look at (-!!-2001, How many of us asked, "Why did HaShem let this happen? or, Where was HaShem?" In the end no matter what man might have said to answer this, HaShem won His day in court. As we all, at some found the answer we needed that both justified HaShem, and gave glory to Him in some way. If not, then we may need to rethink the answer we found. Just as Paul tells us, if we find HaShem unjust, then what right would He have to judge us?
    7 "But," you say, "if, through my lie, God's truth is enhanced and brings him greater glory, why am I still judged merely for being a sinner?"
    8 Indeed! Why not say (as some people slander us by claiming we do say), "Let us do evil, so that good may come of it"? Against them the judgment is a just one!

    Paul places a question before us, that as of yet has not been given an answer, as some see it. Yet if you think back to chapter 2, the idea of sin can be made clear only when one looks into the hearts of the sinner. Just as HaShem can use a sinner to His own ends, their sin is still there. Until they ask forgiveness. Just as 8 reflects the example given in the commentary chapter 2, leading us to think that repaying evil with evil is not a good idea.
    9 So are we Jews better off? Not entirely; for I have already made the charge that all people, Jews and Gentiles alike, are controlled by sin.
    10 As the Tanakh puts it, "There is no one righteous, not even one! No one understands,
    11 no one seeks God,
    12 all have turned away and at the same time become useless; there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one!
    13 "Their throats are open graves, they use their tongues to deceive. Vipers' venom is under their lips.
    14 Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness.
    15 "Their feet rush to shed blood,
    16 in their ways are ruin and misery,
    17 and the way of shalom they do not know.

    18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

    Paul makes it clear that everyone is controlled by sin. Sounds a lot like what HaShem said in Gen. 6:5. Paul talks of seeking HaShem. An idea that is not new to anyone, yet it seems that Paul wishes to point out that no one is doing it. I have heard 2 teachings on this. One says that people just take what is told to them, and don't study for them self. Or when they do study, it is done in a manner that is only meant to find they already think.
    the other, a bit more harsh. Man does not want a god that acts contrary to what they want Him to be. If HaShem forbids driving your car, then they will seek any way they can to show that that idea is wrong. In other words, the second one follows the idea of trying to show HaShem as a lair.

    19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment.

    The idea that Paul is makeing here, is that (those within the frame work of the Torah) Jews who had the guidance of HaShem Word, may use it to try and try to justify their actions. Yet init are found the teachings that would stop this action, and show that both Jew and Gentile are guilty, and HaShems judgments on us are just.
    20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.

    The Law was never to make any one right with HaShem. That has been and will always be done through faith. The Law has always been their as our teacher, guild, and the mark we should all strive to obtain.


    21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well -
    22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
    23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God's praise.

    As we can see, it is through Faith that man is made right with HaShem. The Tanakh speaks to this, and Torah tells us this about Abram, ad many others. The faithfulness of Yeshua, and our faith in Him. The idea that is by the faithfulness of Yeshua, come from the idea that He is faithful in all He has said, should betray that Faith we hold in Him, and His loving faithfulness, then we as me would have no hope at all.
    24 By God's grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua.
    25 God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God's righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past;
    26 and it vindicates his righteousness in the present age by showing that he is righteous himself and is also the one who makes people righteous on the ground of Yeshua's faithfulness.

    Kappaarah= atonement, expiation, propitiation; more loosely; forgiveness, pardon.
    With respect to the sacrificial system, Though HaShem has told us back in Jer. 6:20, Hos. 6:6, and others that don't come to mind right off, He does want our sacrifices, rather He wants mercy, and for us to get to know Him. Though Yeshia became our passover lamb, does not give us a get out of jail free card. It does give us the right to claim salvation, so long as we keep faith, and follow in His ways. After all, as we will see Paul himself say, should we sin now that we are under grace and not under the Law? Nope not even> Ok that was kind of my spin on it. When we get to Rom. chapter 6, there will by more on that.
    27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting.
    28 Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of Torah commands.

    Pauls idea of legalistic observance come the idea that one must keep the letter of the Law. Yet he tells us that this not what it calls for, the Torah has always been a guild to SPIRITUAL living. HaShem knew frm the start that man can not live up to the letter of the Law, that is why He showed us that Faith was the answer long before He gave the Law at mount Sinai. Yet as the Tanakh shows us, man kind seems to always look for the hardest way to do things.
    A Torah that has to do with trusting. If we place our trusting, faithfulness in Yeshua, then it is that we also place it in HaShem. after all they are one i the same. (Please see JOhn chapter 1) The Idea that is given by trusting, is that we keep on trusting. To trust as I said before, and most likely will many times, shows that we only do it once. Faith shows that we had faith one, faithfulness on the other hand, shows that we renew that faith at every turn.
    29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles;
    30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting.
    31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

    Paul makes this all clear. So I will make this short and to the point. If one wishes to abolish the Torah, they can in way confirm it in their lives. Yet Paul does say that we don't abolish it, rather we confirm it. As with all laws if we follow it, we confirm it in our lives. If we don't follow it, we can be fined or imprisoned. The same holds true with HaShem's Laws. If we confirm them in our lives, we follow them. If we wish to abolish them, and rebel, then He is just in His punishment upon us for our sin.
    Karraster likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    I agree may all leave the law behind in favour of Grace of our Lord and Saviour. Then they will love and obey Him because He loves them.

    The New wine is better but let us remember the Old was to bring the New...

    Paul taught the New Covenant in place of the Old Covenant..
    To clarify that i believe GOD's law is to be kept, it is the law as in the Old Testament I refer to leave law as in law of works for law of Faith.

    We are required to Keep the Spirit of the Law not the letter. Which is why they go from tablets to our inwards by GOD.
    miknik5, Rainrider and unobtrusive like this.

  8. #208
    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    To clarify that i believe GOD's law is to be kept, it is the law as in the Old Testament I refer to leave law as in law of works for law of Faith.

    We are required to Keep the Spirit of the Law not the letter. Which is why they go from tablets to our inwards by GOD.
    True. Only even OT times, the Law was meant to be spiritual, and not physical. Most people see the OT as salvation by works, however if they ever study it, they will soon find that it is salvation by faith, not works. This made clear through out the Tanakh, (or OT as it is called by many.)
    unobtrusive likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  9. #209
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainrider View Post
    True. Only even OT times, the Law was meant to be spiritual, and not physical. Most people see the OT as salvation by works, however if they ever study it, they will soon find that it is salvation by faith, not works. This made clear through out the Tanakh, (or OT as it is called by many.)
    Yes GOD is good from beginning to end... it is We vessels that need Holy Spirit Baptism... GOD told Adam and Eve not to do something and they did not believe and were beguiled.

    So the conclusion of the matter is Love and obey GOD because He is Good and True and always knows best.

    The Messiah teaches us this.

    Truth and love overcomes.
    MarcR, Rainrider and unobtrusive like this.

  10. #210
    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Romans chapter 4
    1 Then what should we say Avraham, our forefather, obtained by his own efforts?
    2 For if Avraham came to be considered righteous by God because of legalistic observances, then he has something to boast about. But this is not how it is before God!
    3 For what does the Tanakh say? "Avraham put his trust in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness."
    4 Now the account of someone who is working is credited not on the ground of grace but on the ground of what is owed him.
    5 However, in the case of one who is not working but rather is trusting in him who makes ungodly people righteous, his trust is credited to him as righteousness.

    Although this has be address many time, we now find that Paul wishes to make it clear that the new covenant has not changed how righteousness is granted. Thia idea is found in Chapters 3, and will repeated in other chapters and books of Paul's writings.
    6 In the same way, the blessing which David pronounces is on those whom God credits with righteousness apart from legalistic observances:
    7 "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered over;
    8 Blessed is the man whose sin ADONAI will not reckon against his account."

    As to the phrase legalistic observances, This can be both the letter of the Law, as well Rabbinic Law. Both remove faith, and turn to works. As the Tanakh is clear this is not how it works, just as the NT does, the idea of salvation by works is a bit misused when one wish to remain with the Biblical means of salvation. Be it the Tanakh or the NT.
    9 Now is this blessing for the circumcised only? Or is it also for the uncircumcised? For we say that Avraham's trust was credited to his account as righteousness;
    10 but what state was he in when it was so credited - circumcision or uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!
    Paul has this need to make clear that salvation is for every one. Not just the Jew. As we may know from Acts 15 may have been the grounds for this. As one teaching goes, Jews followed that circumcision was need to enter Heaven, and there for only Jews would be there, This was the reason for wanting the Gentile to be circumcised. You will find few if any Jews that teach this today, and though it is doughfull they followed this then. After all it little to change their minds.
    The other teaching, is that the Jews wished to place the burden of sacrifices on the Gentile. As any that has studied Torah will know, to enter the Temple, one had to be circumcised.

    11 In fact, he received circumcision as a sign, as a seal of the righteousness he had been credited with on the ground of the trust he had while he was still uncircumcised. This happened so that he could be the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts and thus has righteousness credited to him,
    12 and at the same time be the father of every circumcised person who not only has had a b'rit-milah, but also follows in the footsteps of the trust which Avraham avinu had when he was still uncircumcised.
    13 For the promise to Avraham and his seedr that he would inherit the world did not come through legalism but through the righteousness that trust produces.
    14 For if the heirs are produced by legalism, then trust is pointless and the promise worthless.

    Before anyone tells me that this shows the Torah has been removed and replace by Faith, or grace. Keep in mind that this how time Paul has been using Abraham to salivation by faith. To try and deny this fact, one would have to first remove so much of Paul's writings, that it would not come close to showing truth.
    15 For what law brings is punishment. But where there is no law, there is also no violation.

    If we remove the Law, we also remove sin, This is also backed in, 1john, and others that simply don't come to mind right off. Although as we move through Pal, I am sure we will find this more than once.
    16 The reason the promise is based on trusting is so that it may come as God's free gift, a promise that can be relied on by all the seed, not only those who live within the framework of the Torah, but also those with the kind of trust Avraham had - Avraham avinu for all of us.
    17 This accords with the Tanakh, where it says, "I have appointed you to be a father to many nations." Avraham is our father in God's sight because he trusted God as the one who gives life to the dead and calls nonexistent things into existence.


    Paul as we know loves to give glory to HaShem any time he can. Something we should all do. As I am sure most do, just in their own little ways.
    18 For he was past hope, yet in hope he trusted that he would indeed become a father to many nations, in keeping with what he had been told, "So many will your seed be."
    19 His trust did not waver when he considered his own body - which was as good as dead, since he was about a hundred years old - or when he considered that Sarah's womb was dead too.
    20 He did not by lack of trust decide against God's promises. On the contrary, by trust he was given power as he gave glory to God,
    21 for he was fully convinced that what God had promised he could also accomplish.
    22 This is why it was credited to his account as righteousness.
    23 But the words, "it was credited to his account . . . ," were not written for him only.
    24 They were written also for us, who will certainly have our account credited too, because we have trusted in him who raised Yeshua our Lord from the dead -

    25 Yeshua, who was delivered over to death because of our offences and raised to life in order to make us righteous.

    As we should know from John chapter one, Yeshua, HaShem, and the Holy Spirit are all one. So by placing our faith in One, do we not also place it all? If we remove one from the Body, do we not diminish the whole? In other words, if we say that salvation can only come from Yeshua, and remove HaShem the works of Grace, do we not diminish the whole?
    unobtrusive likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Everything Jesus taught, and said, and also did was works by faith, which was the love of God. And that we must do likewise ,by faith.
    JaumeJ, loveme1, Karraster and 2 others like this.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainrider View Post
    1 Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, passing judgment; for when you judge someone else, you are passing judgment against yourself; since you who are judging do the same things he does.
    2 We know that God's judgment lands impartially on those who do such things;
    3 do you think that you, a mere man passing judgment on others who do such things, yet doing them yourself, will escape the judgment of God?

    Often in life we judge only from the making of our own hearts. This is what Paul is talking of here. As we sit around and pass judgment on on others, we seem to forget about our sin. Looking for any little thing wrong with other does seem be gaining ground, here in the USA it seems to the major pass time. Just look at the on going fight between the parties of our own government, the how the media acts, or the bickering between the church's. Paul warns about the folly of this, and reminds us that no matter what, we will all be judged. So rather than siting around worrying about what others may do or think, it may bet to start closer to home. Or as Yeshua said,
    Mat 7:3 “And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

    4 Or perhaps you despise the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience; because you don't realize that God's kindness is intended to lead you to turn from your sins.
    5 But by your stubbornness, by your unrepentant heart, you are storing up anger for yourself on the Day of Anger, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed;
    6 for he will pay back each one according to his deeds.

    Pay back according to their deeds. This same idea can be found in Job 34:11, Mat. 16:27, and 2 Cor 5:10. Knowing that we are human, and not one of us is perfect, should we not stop and look into our lives, before jumping on others? I know that I am just as bad at the next on this, yet I am working on it, and spend time in pray everyday asking that He help me to over come this petty way of acting.
    7 To those who seek glory, honor and immortality by perseverance in doing good, he will pay back eternal life.

    Paul in no way is telling us that we can earn our way though good deeds. Rather Paul may well be reminding of the absolute standard of HaShem's own Holiness. A standard that we can never hope to reach in this life. Yet we should strive to achieve.
    It has been said that Paul is telling us that it only by perfection that we can find acceptance before HaShem. This however is not what Paul is saying at all. After all does Pula not make it clear in many of his writtings that is only by HaShem's gift through faith? I don't think that anyone that has a true understanding of Paul, can ever say that he thought it was by our own works and power.
    8 But to those who are self-seeking, who disobey the truth and obey evil, he will pay back wrath and anger.
    9 Yes, he will pay back misery and anguish to every human being who does evil, to the Jew first, then to the Gentile;
    10 but glory and honor and shalom to everyone who keeps doing what is good, to the Jew first, then to the Gentile.

    Now just why would Paul say the Jew first then to the Gentile? Some will say it is because Salvation came to the Jew first then the Gentile. In a way you would be right, yet is there more to it than that? Might it also be that Israel was given the Torah, and with it's knowledge, they should have a better understanding of how HaShem works? I have heard this in my life time. Yet I ask, would this place higher standards on Israel than on the rest of the world? I think it would, and as we know, HaShem is no respecter of person's. He does place a heavier burden on any one than on others. Yet with that, we are faced with dealing with the idea that salvation, and Gospel was to go the Jew first. So what do you think on this?
    11 For God does not show favoritism.
    12 All who have sinned outside the framework of Torah will die outside the framework of Torah; and all who have sinned within the framework of Torah will be judged by Torah.
    13 For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God's sight.

    Outside the frame work of Torah. As one looks to other translations on this, it becomes cleat that is not talking about people that keep the law or don't keep it. Rather it is speaking of having it, as way to guide ones walk. The gentile who never had this, at lest not in Paul's day, and many Jews never had it in hand. The Torah never made a signal claim that through it one could be saved without faith. You will also never hear that statement from me. However as we find in 13, (it is also the same in somke 14 other translations) it is the doers of the law that will found in right standing.
    Now before any you go saying SEE I KNOW THIS ABOUT THE LAW, you would be wrong. As every one here will agree that to worship ideas, misuse the name of HaShem, brake the Sabbath, (ever if you don't follow the 7th day sabbath) dishonor your parents, murder, commit adultery, steal, lie, covet, commit perverse sexual acts, and so on, is sin. Even if one does turn their life over to Yeshua, to do any of the mentioned acts would still be sin. In admitting this, you also admit that the Law is just as valid today as it was the day it was given. To deny this, would to admit that you don't understand what turning your life over really is. After all if sin is so readily on your lips, then you need to look long and hard at your relationship with HaShem.

    14 For whenever Gentiles, who have no Torah, do naturally what the Torah requires, then these, even though they don't have Torah, for themselves are Torah!
    15 For their lives show that the conduct the Torah dictates is written in their hearts. Their consciences also bear witness to this, for their conflicting thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them

    I really like this translation better,
    Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

    The Holy Spirit that lives inside of use all, uses the Laws of HaShem to convict use, when we do wrong, that would be that felling we get when we did wrong, even though we may not have meant to. He also uses it to pat us on the back when we do the right thing. Ok so it is a real pat on the back, and the Holy Spirit does yell out, That A Boy. Still that feeling of satisfaction is there. Am I removing grace from the pitcher? Nope. Faith? Nope. As I have always maintained, Salvation come by Faith, as it did with Abram, followed by obedience, as Abram showed us in his life. This idea is also backed in verse 7 of this same chapter, and in Jamse 1:22.
    16 on a day when God passes judgment on people's inmost secrets. (According to the Good News as I proclaim it, he does this through the Messiah Yeshua.)

    I was unsure where to brake this. So here it is. Our innermost secrets. This would the things we do or think that we think others have no clue about. It is the idea on of this writer, ad others, that we will be judged by what is in our hearts. Even we did something wrong, like say we take a life, and in doing that wrong, we save a life. Then that wrong would not be murder. If in hearts we only acted to save a life. Now if we acted to both save a life, and to take vengeance for a wrong that had been done to us, then that act would be murder. Even if we were hailed a hero by the world.
    17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rest on Torah and boast about God
    18 and know his will and give your approval to what is right, because you have been instructed from the Torah;
    19 and if you have persuaded yourself that you are a guide to the blind, a light in the darkness,
    20 an instructor for the spiritually unaware and a teacher of children, since in the Torah you have the embodiment of knowledge and truth;
    21 then, you who teach others, don't you teach yourself? Preaching, "Thou shalt not steal," do you steal?
    22 Saying, "Thou shalt not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? Detesting idols, do you commit idolatrous acts?
    23 You who take such pride in Torah, do you, by disobeying the Torah, dishonor God? -
    To call yourself a Jew when you are not, is a sin of it's own. So with that in mind I would tend to think this is talking to the Jews, as well as any that wish to teach the Torah. Yes that would include myself. Although I am not Jewish. We are being warnd that to teach one thing and live another is not only a sin, it brings dishonor upon HaShem. Now how can man bring dishonor upon HaShem? Well it really isn't on him, it is on his word. As they are one and the same, (see John chapter 1) to dishonor one dishonors them both.

    24 as it says in the Tanakh, "For it is because of you that God's name is blasphemed by the Goyim."

    Is. 52:5 and Eze. 36:20 are what Paul is alluding to here. The Use of the name Yahovah,(as one Rabbi informed me how it was said) ended when Israel was in captivity in Babylon, due it's misuse by the Gentiles. They twisted how it was said and use it to cast insults at the Jews. Sadly due to this and other prohibitions on the use of this name, I am almost convinced I was not given the proper name, rather something that sounded close. Do I fault the man for this? Not at all, it is after all I that tells others I will let HaShem be my judge. So it is that I should also let him judge others, and understand that it is not my place to do so. Though we all do judge matters in our lives, this is not the same as judging a man a sinner.
    25 For circumcision is indeed of value if you do what Torah says. But if you are a transgressor of Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision!

    It is of value in that it is a sign of the Abrahamic covenant can be a valid point made here. Though if one is a part of this covenant, yet rejects the Torah, also a part of that covenant, then they are no better off than a gentile that has no part in it.
    26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won't his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

    This passage can be a bit misleading if one does not first understand that this is not talking of physical, rather spiritual circumcision. To teach that this speaking only of physical would be both misleading, and faults. Also to use this as a way of showing that one must real on Torah, with out faith would also be just as wrong. As I have made clear that salvation is by faith, followed by obedience, I find it kind of funny when folks try to twist that into me saying salvation by law, or works. Yet it is still done.
    27 Indeed, the man who is physically uncircumcised but obeys the Torah will stand as a judgment on you who have had a b'rit-milah and have Torah written out but violate it!

    b'rit-milah, Literally covenant of circumcision, it may also mean the act or ceremony of.
    Paul is saying that by the vary existence and manifestly righteous behavior of believing Gentiles, should stand as a continual judgment for them. However in the eyes of an Orthodox Jew, (at lest the ones I have spoken with) we are seen as having more than one God, and rejecting the Laws of HaShem. They pointed to teh idea that HaShem, Yeshua, and Ruach Ha-Kodesh are said to be 3 different beings. They could not believe it when I told them they had us wrong. That they are in fact one and the same. I showed them in John Chapter one how that was true. It was then that I learned more about eh 72 names of HaShem, and why they use HaShem rather than Yahovah. (Once more not real sure that is the true way it is said.)
    They also got a little upset when I pointed out that some, (not all) Christians see there need for the temple as a form of Idolatry. In that they simply don't understand it is not something the Jewish people worship, rather it the place they do so.
    28 For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical.
    29 On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God.

    Though this is seen in many ways, have you see this last part from the view point that follows.
    A Jewish friend sees this in the following manner. One can know a Jewish person is Jewish with out having to see the foreskin is missing. It shows in everything they do. Even in the things that others don't see, the heart of the Jew remains the same. This is what Paul calls spiritual circumcision. Out word circumcision can only be seen if we Jews go around with out paints on. The latter would not bring praise from anyone, rather condemnation from all. The former on the other hand, can't bring praise from man, as man does not know what you do when you close the door.
    He went on to point out that in our own NT Yeshua points this out, when he speaks of long winded prayers, and bragging of good deeds.
    So far, your teaching is quite sound. I'm not looking for something to pounce on. I just don't you or anyone else to use sound teaching to lure people who are not well grounded into a lie.
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    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    So far, your teaching is quite sound. I'm not looking for something to pounce on. I just don't you or anyone else to use sound teaching to lure people who are not well grounded into a lie.
    I agree MarcR, so far Rainriders teaching is spot on. Misunderstandings are so prevalent on CC, could you please clarify this? "...lure people who are not well grounded into a lie." My question: well grounded into what? I do hope you say scripture.
    Rainrider and unobtrusive like this.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Absolutely Correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwint View Post
    Hi Rainrider, it is without doubt worth to make a study about Paul which helpes us in the way of follow Jesus. Because if we read his letters we find that one of his main goals was to fulfill the task which our Lord has given him. Preach and teach the Gospel.
    I can not fully agree with your statement that Paul had only the OT as base for his teachings. This may be the case before he became Paul. But since he became a christian and the special task from the Lord Jesus, he also became informations directly from the Lord himself. So we dont know anything about his time in arabia ore his time in the third heaven.
    So if you use only the OT as his base for informations you draw a not realistic picture from Paul.
    And really I find it difficult to speak and teach about a person without knowing him realy. Whoever will do this, has to realize that it only can be a trying to do it.
    I find it more fruitfull to read his letters and find out how much he loved the Lord, how much he was ready to suffer for the Gospel and the Lord. How much he loves the churches and believers. How he trust the Lord in difficult situations. How much he was against sin in the church, how much he was against false doctrine (f.e. the doctrine of the judaists) How much he fights for the truth. In this he is a role model for me!

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    So far, your teaching is quite sound. I'm not looking for something to pounce on. I just don't you or anyone else to use sound teaching to lure people who are not well grounded into a lie.
    It has always been my intent to never place my own ideas ouot as fact. For any that have read my post, I can asure you, they have read once, if not more, "Don't take my word for it, study it out for your selves." I have not looked back to see if that has been posted on this thread or not.
    As to the idea of people not well grounded. Is this meant to point to Biblical doctrine? If so, any that are well grounded, will find truth in this thread as well as any post I leave on here. If however this to make note of denominational doctrine. It is with in that form of following that my teachings do seem to steer up discontent.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Senior Member Bogadile's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    The thread is long, and I am one lazy man, when the proverbs talks about the sluggard, they were writing about me.

    However Rainrider can you answer a couple one of my questions, sorry if they are repetetive and you have had to answer them already:

    #1 Should christians still get circumcised?
    #2 How do you know which laws of the Torah to keep and which not? (See #1, is it required?) Are animal sacrifices required if they rebuild the temple in Jerusalem? How about the dietary laws, how do you know what applies and what does not.
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Good day Rainrider,

    This can be seen as a warning to us, that we should know the person, how Paul sees scripture, and just what parts of the Word Paul is calling scripture.
    * "just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him."

    * "He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    So, from the scripture above, the words that Paul spoke are wisdom from God and as Peter pointed out, Paul's writings are to be considered as scripture, which again, is wisdom from God, not Paul. All of Paul's letters are on behalf of the Lord.

    Let it be clear that, what Paul wrote is from the Lord and His thinking, not his own. Regarding this Peter writes:

    "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. "

    It is the same with Paul and all of the other apostles. They wrote what God wanted them to write. Regarding this, many times I see people making posts that infer that in regards to the book of Revelation, that John was writing of his own accord, from his own style of writing and knowledge and in code, which couldn't be further from the truth. John wrote exactly what the Lord wanted him to write, nothing more, nothing less. Paul and the other writers did the same thing. This is God's word as given to them through the Holy Spirit, not their own.

    Paul is not just quoting from the OT, but wrote about things that were not previously known about. He was caught up to the third heaven where he received revelations and visions. He revealed an event given to him by the Lord regarding what would happen to those believers who were still alive at the time of the resurrection as a mystery, ergo, not previously known.
    wolfwint and J7 like this.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogadile View Post
    The thread is long, and I am one lazy man, when the proverbs talks about the sluggard, they were writing about me.

    However Rainrider can you answer a couple one of my questions, sorry if they are repetetive and you have had to answer them already:

    #1 Should christians still get circumcised?
    #2 How do you know which laws of the Torah to keep and which not? (See #1, is it required?) Are animal sacrifices required if they rebuild the temple in Jerusalem? How about the dietary laws, how do you know what applies and what does not.
    Both good questions, that as you made of I have answered in the past. However I see no reason to not answer them now.
    #1 Gentiles should never been forced to be circumcised. That was, is, and should remain strictly a sign of the House of Israel, and the covenant made with Abraham. Out side of that use, and frame work, it has no value at all.
    #2 As I see this as 3 questions I will treat as that.
    #1The Torah it's self gives us that answer. As the Laws are divided into categories that make it clear what peoples that set of laws apply to. Keep in mind, that if we look at this from the views I have seen in many church's, then one may be seeing the Laws from a Rabbinic stand point. That will muddy the water.
    #2 The sacrificial system as I have pointed out many times in my life, really never made it out of the Tanakh. Jer 6:20, Hos 6:6
    Amo 5:22 HaShem after seeing how perverted it had become, being used in ways never intended, and to line the pockets of the priest, tried to end it. This can be seen also when Yeshua turns over the tables in the Temple. Mark 11.
    #3 The dietary laws I do follow. Many don't for what ever reason. HOwever, as Peter is used to show that they have been lifted, and yet Peter tells us his dream about men and never tells us it had anything to do food at all, I stand that it hasn't, and was never intended to remove them. Although, some will also say that they were given to Israel, and never intended for the gentile, All can say is that may well be right. Yet as we find in Rom. 11 we even as gentiles become partakers of the covenant. That would be the Abrahamic covenant. As we know this to be true, it then becomes our job to study Torah, and seek out the laws that apply to us.
    My reason for telling folks that I will not get drawn into an augment over this, is that I know I am responsible for my action,s and you for yours. I am not held responsible for your, and you are not for mine.
    So why do I teach the things I do, if it doesn't matter to me what others do? If the watchmen does sound the warning, and people die, their blood is on his hands.
    Karraster and Bogadile like this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Karraster View Post
    I agree MarcR, so far Rainriders teaching is spot on. Misunderstandings are so prevalent on CC, could you please clarify this? "...lure people who are not well grounded into a lie." My question: well grounded into what? I do hope you say scripture.
    I have seen people start a thread with good sound teaching. 8or so pages down the thread they will begin to slip things that are either not Scripturally supported or outright distortions and negations of Scripture. Since I am sufficiently grounded to spot such things and since no one else has stepped up to the job of reading through every thread I have tentatively appointed myself as heresy cop while I'm here.

    I know the mods try to do the same but they largely rely on reporting.
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    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    I have seen people start a thread with good sound teaching. 8or so pages down the thread they will begin to slip things that are either not Scripturally supported or outright distortions and negations of Scripture. Since I am sufficiently grounded to spot such things and since no one else has stepped up to the job of reading through every thread I have tentatively appointed myself as heresy cop while I'm here.

    I know the mods try to do the same but they largely rely on reporting.
    As this post was not to me directly, yet answered mine. I wish to welcome you, and do hope that should you find anything like this, please lets talk it over. As I have used the same things in classes, and do my best, (as I said0 to keep my own thoughts out of teaching. It is always nice to have an out side view that is is not just looking to derail the thread or the op.
    You once said I was arrogant. I must ask, do you really think that, or may it be that you are seeing my confidants in my teaching as such? Just asking.
    Also please over look the fact that I can be some what abrasive, this is due more to being sick of others trying to tell me what to teach and how to teach it. As I am unwilling to set aside the things that I feel have placed on my heart, or to bow to any other than HaShem, I understand that can be seen in many ways. SO as always, I will let HaShem be my judge and not man.
    Karraster and MarcR like this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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