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Thread: Lets talk about Paul

  1. #221


    J7
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    It is a discussion board, not a teaching board though.

    The authority to teach that you and Rainrider have assumed cannot be granted on this kind of forum. It is frustrating as people do spout a lot of totally illegitimate things, but that is how it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    I have seen people start a thread with good sound teaching. 8or so pages down the thread they will begin to slip things that are either not Scripturally supported or outright distortions and negations of Scripture. Since I am sufficiently grounded to spot such things and since no one else has stepped up to the job of reading through every thread I have tentatively appointed myself as heresy cop while I'm here.

    I know the mods try to do the same but they largely rely on reporting.
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Not meaning to sidetrack, but I didn't know where to ask this question hope you don't mind.

    Biblically speaking and in regard to esteeming our Creator, what is the difference if any, between revere and fear? Because I think that those 2 words right there are understood by some to be interchangeable.
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Karraster View Post
    Not meaning to sidetrack, but I didn't know where to ask this question hope you don't mind.

    Biblically speaking and in regard to esteeming our Creator, what is the difference if any, between revere and fear? Because I think that those 2 words right there are understood by some to be interchangeable.
    Actually reverence and fear are very closely related, and could be joined into "reverential fear". This means no fear because of future damnation, but fear that one may displease God. Paul -- while addressing Christians -- speaks of this kind of fear. Reverence is a combination of awe and the fear which a child has of displeasing its parent by departing from the straight and narrow way.
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    You are so correct, this is a discussion for all. However you must always consider the power of God, His Holy Spirit.

    There are teachers who come into the forum, and the Holy Spirit will be the only Authority imparting true teaching to the seeker.

    I do not, nor ever did consider myself a teacher since I know if I do post truth it is from Jesus Christ, the Teacher, Rabboni.

    Yes, I do fall into thinking what I have to share is written in stone, but I get over myself real quick.

    Now I like to believe when I share truth it is from that scripture, that law, on my heart and not just dead repittions of text, though I do quote scriptue when led by the Holy Spirit.

    Never concern yourself about people sharing, teaching or just discussing, I know the Holy Spirit will level all fields. It is our God, our Father Who always watches over us, and He is not about to lose a one of us........

    God bless all in Jesus Christ, amen. All must beware of false brethren always, but again, God is in charge, not a one of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    It is a discussion board, not a teaching board though.

    The authority to teach that you and Rainrider have assumed cannot be granted on this kind of forum. It is frustrating as people do spout a lot of totally illegitimate things, but that is how it is.
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    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Senior Member JaumeJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    When we revere anything or anyone, we have in mind the consequences of disrespect, and so I would imagine revering is also fearing, at least it would be inclusive in its definition...

    We do revere at levels, but the ultimate level is reverence of our Father. He is wonderful, but you know that. God bless you always in Yeshua......j
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    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainrider View Post
    As this post was not to me directly, yet answered mine. I wish to welcome you, and do hope that should you find anything like this, please lets talk it over. As I have used the same things in classes, and do my best, (as I said0 to keep my own thoughts out of teaching. It is always nice to have an out side view that is is not just looking to derail the thread or the op.
    You once said I was arrogant. I must ask, do you really think that, or may it be that you are seeing my confidants in my teaching as such? Just asking.
    Also please over look the fact that I can be some what abrasive, this is due more to being sick of others trying to tell me what to teach and how to teach it. As I am unwilling to set aside the things that I feel have placed on my heart, or to bow to any other than HaShem, I understand that can be seen in many ways. SO as always, I will let HaShem be my judge and not man.
    Perhaps what I took as arrogance was just your style of 'classroom discipline'. In any case I haven't seen it lately.
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    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Senior Member unobtrusive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Karraster View Post
    Not meaning to sidetrack, but I didn't know where to ask this question hope you don't mind.

    Biblically speaking and in regard to esteeming our Creator, what is the difference if any, between revere and fear? Because I think that those 2 words right there are understood by some to be interchangeable.
    The closest I can come to answering your question is that "revere" is to "glorify," (an outward show of reverence), and "fear" is to "worship" only One Deity (an inward nature of reverence). They are very closely related.

    "Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel." (Psalm 22:23)

    This could read...

    Ye that (Worship) the Lord, (Glorify) him; all ye the seed of Jacob, (Revere) him; and (Worship) him, all ye the seed of Israel.

    Just my thoughts.
    Last edited by unobtrusive; September 14th, 2017 at 07:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    To give reverence and to fear... to love..

    I fear GOD but His love cast the fear out yet I revere Him...

    It is true that the fear of GOD is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy is understanding..

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    It is a discussion board, not a teaching board though.

    The authority to teach that you and Rainrider have assumed cannot be granted on this kind of forum. It is frustrating as people do spout a lot of totally illegitimate things, but that is how it is.
    The authority to teach has not been assumed by anyone. It is however, a gift that is loaned to some people, and as it seems also to people that step out with out fear in their hearts. Just as Satan places the need to disrupt anything that may lead others to a truth he doesn't want them to hear.
    As for this forum not being intended for teaching. Almost any thread you look at o here, is a form of teaching. Although I have seen some that would fit more closely with a form of indoctrination. Or at lest an attempt at.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    J7
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    You are teaching Romans, and you have asked people who don't want to follow along to keep out of the thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rainrider View Post
    The authority to teach has not been assumed by anyone. It is however, a gift that is loaned to some people, and as it seems also to people that step out with out fear in their hearts. Just as Satan places the need to disrupt anything that may lead others to a truth he doesn't want them to hear.
    As for this forum not being intended for teaching. Almost any thread you look at o here, is a form of teaching. Although I have seen some that would fit more closely with a form of indoctrination. Or at lest an attempt at.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Karraster View Post
    Not meaning to sidetrack, but I didn't know where to ask this question hope you don't mind.

    Biblically speaking and in regard to esteeming our Creator, what is the difference if any, between revere and fear? Because I think that those 2 words right there are understood by some to be interchangeable.
    I also follow that they are somewhat interchangeable. If one truly Reveres HaShem, they lift Him up. Be it in song, or worship. Some even lift Him in prayer, and though it sounds funny to some, there are also some who give Blessings to Him as a sign reverence.
    It is fear that leads one to become obedient to Him. However as some may with to say this is not the wrong kind of fear, as we should never be sacred of HaShem. They would right.
    Yet think of your own childhood. Most kids looked up to there parents. Some even wanted to be like them, and many achieved that in some way. This is a kind of reverence. In fact there some that wish to be more like HaShem, and work toward that goal daily. (Note I said word toward)
    I don't think ay child was ever scared of their parents, (if they were raised in loving home) Yet we all feared them.Think of when you did something wrong. You were never scaered mom or dad would punish you in anyway that was not fitting of the crime, so to speak. You did however fear what your crime would do to them, as well as what your hind-end might feel like when they got done. Well ok that would most likely be dad, with moms it seemed to be THE LOOK. That one that let you know how hurt she was by your actions.
    So yes they can be seen as interchangeable, yet they do have distinct and vary different meanings.
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    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    You are teaching Romans, and you have asked people who don't want to follow along to keep out of the thread.
    As I will any time someone gets disruptive. Trust me, in a class room they would be asked once, then escorted out.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Senior Member wolfwint's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainrider View Post
    As I will any time someone gets disruptive. Trust me, in a class room they would be asked once, then escorted out.
    If you compare your thread with an classroom then you should search for your teachings not an open forum. And you should give the classroom rules in the beginning. But I am not shure that this makes a sense for an open forum. Of course the most user of the forum are convinced that their view is right. And it is also a kind of teaching, but with an open end and the possibility that others will tell your their view, too. And that others can convince me that I am not right. So all are learner and teacher.
    But it seems me that you see yourself as teacher and all others as learner. This i see questionable. Except you are the only one who has the rigth view.
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    It's good to teach and good to learn, but unless the Forum has a segregated study section, I think it is always a place where searchers meet and debate. Like Wolfwint says, you are setting yourself up as a teacher, (and Marc is setting himself up as a higher authority.)

    I am sure this is done with the best intentions, but in terms of the Forum, it is not really right.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by J7 View Post
    It's good to teach and good to learn, but unless the Forum has a segregated study section, I think it is always a place where searchers meet and debate. Like Wolfwint says, you are setting yourself up as a teacher, (and Marc is setting himself up as a higher authority.)

    I am sure this is done with the best intentions, but in terms of the Forum, it is not really right.
    I am going to respond to this one last time, then I will return the true topic. Any post of this manner will be over looked by my self from this point on. As they serve only to distract and disrupt.

    For you to see me as a teacher simply shows they are reading the post. True I may teach, and I do so in both a home class, as well as on line in a collage calls. So yes I do teach. Yet in that teaching, no matter the forum, it seeks truth. This can be done with out all the side shows, and half truths that have been seen on CC.
    To that note, everyone on here wishes to be a teacher, or it seem anyway. Every signal person on is tied up in teaching, and in many cases, forcing what they think on others that they simply can not move away when another teaching is offered.

    As for MarcR, I will not say I speak for him, nor can I say he will follow what I am about to say. I do however ask that if what I say is not true of how he feels, that he please forgive my indiscretion, and correct me. As I may well speaking out of turn, I may need to ask his forgiveness anyway.
    That said. I don't see him setting himself up as a higher authority. True he wishes that the truth be spoke, and he does, (if I may) play watch dog. Then it has became clear that you have placed yourself in that same position right along with Wolfwint. So please think before you cast stones. After all, if you are so against the actions of both MarcR and my self, please do us all a big favor, start a thread, that will make clear every single person that fits into the ideas you have MarcR and my self. That wouuls soon be come at lest a 300 page post IF you were honest.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Good day Rainrider,



    * "just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him."

    * "He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    So, from the scripture above, the words that Paul spoke are wisdom from God and as Peter pointed out, Paul's writings are to be considered as scripture, which again, is wisdom from God, not Paul. All of Paul's letters are on behalf of the Lord.

    Let it be clear that, what Paul wrote is from the Lord and His thinking, not his own. Regarding this Peter writes:

    "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. "

    It is the same with Paul and all of the other apostles. They wrote what God wanted them to write. Regarding this, many times I see people making posts that infer that in regards to the book of Revelation, that John was writing of his own accord, from his own style of writing and knowledge and in code, which couldn't be further from the truth. John wrote exactly what the Lord wanted him to write, nothing more, nothing less. Paul and the other writers did the same thing. This is God's word as given to them through the Holy Spirit, not their own.

    Paul is not just quoting from the OT, but wrote about things that were not previously known about. He was caught up to the third heaven where he received revelations and visions. He revealed an event given to him by the Lord regarding what would happen to those believers who were still alive at the time of the resurrection as a mystery, ergo, not previously known.
    I had debated if I should even answer this. However here I am. As was made clear, at that time of the Paul, there was only Scripture, that being the Tanakh. or one to think that Paul was so arrogant as to see what he wrote as Scripture, is a bit over the top in my mind. Ye it is clear that Paul understood he words were not his own. Yet that does not change the fact that Paul seen scripture as the written, as in what was already placed in the BOOK, as scripture, and use that SCRIPTURE as the basses of both his knowledge as well the foundation for all things. What you quote from the Word, only show that even Peter know others twisted the Tanakh to their own ends.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    I had debated if I should even answer this. However here I am. As was made clear, at that time of the Paul, there was only Scripture, that being the Tanakh.
    No, the Tanakh was not the only scripture available! As I said and as scripture reveals, Paul was receiving new information through revelations and visions directly from the Lord. Neither Paul nor the other apostles were the authors of the NT books, God is. They wrote as they were moved by the Spirit.

    What you quote from the Word, only show that even Peter know others twisted the Tanakh to their own ends.
    Your statement above is ridiculous and dangerous on your part and that because if that were true, then we could not trust in anything that those apostles wrote, as being from God. But as scripture states, the apostles and the prophets wrote as they were moved by the Spirit. All scripture is God-Breathed and is not by any private interpretation.

    You should be very careful in saying that Peter or any other apostles twisted the scriptures, because what is written is God's words not theirs.
    Last edited by Ahwatukee; September 14th, 2017 at 09:34 PM.
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    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by unobtrusive View Post
    The closest I can come to answering your question is that "revere" is to "glorify," (an outward show of reverence), and "fear" is to "worship" only One Deity (an inward nature of reverence). They are very closely related.

    "Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel." (Psalm 22:23)

    This could read...

    Ye that (Worship) the Lord, (Glorify) him; all ye the seed of Jacob, (Revere) him; and (Worship) him, all ye the seed of Israel.

    Just my thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    To give reverence and to fear... to love..

    I fear GOD but His love cast the fear out yet I revere Him...

    It is true that the fear of GOD is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy is understanding..
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainrider View Post
    I also follow that they are somewhat interchangeable. If one truly Reveres HaShem, they lift Him up. Be it in song, or worship. Some even lift Him in prayer, and though it sounds funny to some, there are also some who give Blessings to Him as a sign reverence.
    It is fear that leads one to become obedient to Him. However as some may with to say this is not the wrong kind of fear, as we should never be sacred of HaShem. They would right.
    Yet think of your own childhood. Most kids looked up to there parents. Some even wanted to be like them, and many achieved that in some way. This is a kind of reverence. In fact there some that wish to be more like HaShem, and work toward that goal daily. (Note I said word toward)
    I don't think ay child was ever scared of their parents, (if they were raised in loving home) Yet we all feared them.Think of when you did something wrong. You were never scaered mom or dad would punish you in anyway that was not fitting of the crime, so to speak. You did however fear what your crime would do to them, as well as what your hind-end might feel like when they got done. Well ok that would most likely be dad, with moms it seemed to be THE LOOK. That one that let you know how hurt she was by your actions.
    So yes they can be seen as interchangeable, yet they do have distinct and vary different meanings.
    JaumeJ
    Re: Lets talk about Paul
    When we revere anything or anyone, we have in mind the consequences of disrespect, and so I would imagine revering is also fearing, at least it would be inclusive in its definition...

    We do revere at levels, but the ultimate level is reverence of our Father. He is wonderful, but you know that. God bless you always in Yeshua......j

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Thank you all so much for your replies concerning revere and fear. It seems you are all saying the same thing, yet with a slightly different twist, it's wonderful. I think I do see it better because of very loving parents. Can't help but wonder how one would grasp the meaning of those words properly who had no loving parents? I guess that's all the more reason to be kind and loving to every one we meet, online or in person.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Brother not trying to be a pain, I wonder if this is an omission in post #206?

    He does want our sacrifices? Or did you mean to say does not want sacrifices? in the following excerpt:

    With respect to the sacrificial system, Though HaShem has told us back in Jer. 6:20, Hos. 6:6, and others that don't come to mind right off, He does want our sacrifices, rather He wants mercy, and for us to get to know Him.
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    As stated once on here, the CJB was translate only by one man. So it is no wounder that we find much of his own thinking in it. I did ask that if any one doesn't like this translation to let me know. I am simply using for fun. Although there are things in it that I myself may not agree with.
    That said, let move on.

    Romans chapter 5
    1 So, since we have come to be considered righteous by God because of our trust, let us continue to have shalom with God through our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
    2 Also through him and on the ground of our trust, we have gained access to this grace in which we stand; so let us boast about the hope of experiencing God's glory.

    I do like the use of the Shalom here. As it does give a bit more depth to the word peace. You see this isn't just talking of a peaceful feeling, it is more like, (and once more I struggle to find the words, so this may not do the thought justice.) a wholeness, or a oneness. Not to say that we as ma can be one with HaShem, yet the Spirit that fills us can, it is through this connection, that a oneness is felt.
    Although some do teach that we should never boast, leaving one to be bond to never tell of the god that HaShem has done in their lives. It is this that has lead me think a bit, and to raise the next teaching on this. When we boast of the good that HaShem has done in our lives, we don't lift our selves, rather we exalt Him. When a bad in our life has been turned into great, then to pass this on, or to boast of it, helps others to see the Glory, and Majesty of HaShem. Showing that through Him, there is hope, and that all things work to His favor, and by osmosis, for ours as well. If you ever wish to test this, ( I ask that you never do the following) take something good in your life, and remove any blessing you should give HaShem for it. See how it last when you do.
    3 But not only that, let us also boast in our troubles; because we know that trouble produces endurance,
    4 endurance produces character, and character produces hope;
    5 and this hope does not let us down, because God's love for us has already been poured out in our hearts through the Ruach HaKodesh who has been given to us.
    6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time, the Messiah died on behalf of ungodly people.
    7 Now it is a rare event when someone gives up his life even for the sake of somebody righteous, although possibly for a truly good person one might have the courage to die.
    8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in that the Messiah died on our behalf while we were still sinners.
    9 Therefore, since we have now come to be considered righteous by means of his bloody sacrificial death, how much more will we be delivered through him from the anger of God's judgment!

    There are some that teach verse 5 reflects the idea of the New covenant, and one study Bible even gives as a cross-reference Jer, 31: 3-34, And all following and presiding verses back this idea. However this may be true as for verses 5. It is a bit hard to see that the others do the same. Yet if we look at the teaching that Paul uses the past, to introduce the future, it becomes a little easier to see.
    As to the idea of just in time. Some do teach that is not a play on words, rather that Paul understood if Yeshua had waited even 2 years, then His sacrifice would have fallen on deaf ears. However, as we know HaShem has perfect timing. So we can say for sure that no mater what He does, or when He does it, it is at just the right time. Some may have a fit over this one teaching, and though it is one of many, I feel lead to include it. The teaching I speak of tells us that HaShem and Yeshua are one. It also claims that due to this, HaShem placed Himself on that cross for our sins. Don't get mad about this teaching. You see it doe have a little merit. Not liking what I am about to do, as it goes against my nature. The idea fo HaShem and Yeshua being one should be nothing new to any us. If you have ever read and understood John chapter 1 you will understand this. However, the body of Yeshua wasn't HaShem, that was nothing more than flesh.
    On the other hand, a teaching that I find rings a bit more true. Yes the author of the sermon this teaching comes from tell us he wrote it to rebut the first teaching. He tells us that the death of Yeshua was timed just right. So that it would fulfill Passover, not violet the Sabbath,( that is the first day of Unleavened bread) fulfill the 7th day sabbath, in that Yeshua remained in the grave, so as not to create life out of death. Also with the timing, Yeshua fulfilled the feast of first-fruits. As he was the first of the harvest from the last sacrifice for sin. A sacrifice that didn't just cover sin, rather washed it way, placing it in the never to seen or heard of again file.
    10 For if we were reconciled with God through his Son's death when we were enemies, how much more will we be delivered by his life, now that we are reconciled!
    11 And not only will we be delivered in the future, but we are boasting about God right now, because he has acted through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, through whom we have already received that reconciliation.
    12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.
    13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.


    This brings to mind a debate I once witnessed. as always the names will not be given. The underdog of this story, came bore his class, and and said, "If this is the case then do we dare say HaHSem is unjust?"
    His professor said, "To cal HaShem unjust is a sin in it's own right.
    UD, "being that as it is, to teach that there could be no violation of Torah until after Sinai, would mean that the sins that brought the flood, and the destruction of Sodom should never have been call sin, nor should they have brought about any form of anger or punishment."
    P You will nee to me time to look closer at what you are saying. Though does sound right, it is something I have never heard before.

    14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam's violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.
    15 But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man's offence, many died, then how much more has God's grace, that is, the gracious gift of one man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many!
    16 No, the free gift is not like what resulted from one man's sinning; for from one sinner came judgment that brought condemnation; but the free gift came after many offences and brought acquittal.
    17 For if, because of the offence of one man, death ruled through that one man; how much more will those receiving the overflowing grace, that is, the gift of being considered righteous, rule in life through the one man Yeshua the Messiah!
    18 In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous.
    19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the other man, many will be made righteous.
    20 And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more.
    21 All this happened so that just as sin ruled by means of death, so also grace might rule through causing people to be considered righteous, so that they might have eternal life, through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.

    Just as the underdog pointed out, that sin was counted against us before the giving of the Law at Sinai, one may wish to rethink that idea that the giving of the Law, or the Law in of it's self created sin, or some how sin more abundant. You see, the Law didn't creat sin, it did not have to power to keep men under sin, any more than it had the power to save man from sin. What the Law did do, was show us how to walk a life that was as clean as we could get. It showed us how to cover our sin's, and the things we should know that if followed, would guide us us away from sin.
    However, as to Paul's point, as one teacher puts it, Paul was simply pointing out that sin was made more apparent to us. Hens it may be seen as the law gave sin new birth, and helped it to grow. Yet one other teaching comes from the idea that the law is only intended to be the mark for which man must strive to reach. Though we will never reach this goal, it is by the trying, that we show our Loving faithfulness.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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