Lets talk about Paul

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Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Remember Nehemiah?... and have you found that ignore button yet? It's a useful tool.

Funny story~ Long while back there were some on here so disruptive that they were put on ignore by a member. Then one of the "offended" parties who was being ignored, created a thread all about the "judicial" way to use the ignore button! I kid you not, it was a hoot. I mean, the one who made the thread, all hurt because their disruptive efforts were being ignored, was telling the board how to properly use the ignore button!!! The moral of the story, for me anyway...and I see it here a lot, is that those who say we are freed from commandments, are usually the very ones who want to impose all kinds of rules on everyone else. Thus I deduce that the more one submits to Almighty, the more they grow in grace and stop being a control freak.

Now watch out. I might start to think your calling me a freak. Oh thats right, I am one. Good for me.

I have seen the same thing in life as well as on CC. Just as if you place before them the laws, in question form, they will say that sexual perversion is a sin, and the list can go on. Now go find a paster that teaches the Laws were nailed to the cross, walk up and say, "Thanks for that info, Now I can use my tithes to pay for a new can rather than give them to you." They will inform you right fast that tithe has to be paid.
Although I didn't start this to debate the Law, it didn't take long before it see as that by some, and so they wished to end this thread. Sadly, they didn't see the harm they were doing to their own witness, and credibility. Unlke my self, how really does worry about what others might think about me. After all, I know, and HaShem knows the truth of what is in my heart. So how can anyone pass judgment that will change that?
Lets just all go on a bison Hunt, have a good time, and forget all this.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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First I wish to make clear that I am done with qualifying ever thing I say. You will just have to live wit it. Just as I know I am a long way from perfect, I also know that everyone on this earth is as well. I also wish to make it clear that HaShem seen some reason to create me being Dyslexic, and trust me, all your judgmental remarks, to me have all been seen in the past.

Chapter 7
1
Surely you know, brothers - for I am speaking to those who understand Torah - that the Torah has authority over a person only so long as he lives?

2 For example, a married woman is bound by Torah to her husband while he is alive; but if the husband dies, she is released from the part of the Torah that deals with husbands.
3 Therefore, while the husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress if she marries another man; but if the husband dies, she is free from that part of the Torah; so that if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress.
4 Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah's body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.

As we can see Paul is equating a physical death to a spiritual death. When one gives themselves over to HaShem, and truly repents, that old spirit of sin dies, and a new spirit of trusting faithfulness is placed in their hearts. This removes the penitly for sin, at lest for sins that we had committed before that point. For us to then take on the idea that we can never sin again, is only fulling ourselves. The Holy Spirit will work with us to keep us on the right track, and lead us away from sin, yet when we don't follow his lead, we find our selves with the felling of guilt. This is the Holy Spirit working to inform us we did wrong.
5 For when we were living according to our old nature, the passions connected with sins worked through the Torah in our various parts, with the result that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from this aspect of the Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.

Many today still the Torah in this manner, that it was a physical law. Sadly this is the way it had been seen in the eyes of many through out time. As one Rabbi said, it was the mistake of working to follow the letter of the Law, that has lead to Israel being removed from the land for 2000 years. My friend seen that it was the letter of the law that lead Israel into sin, and away from the truth. Just as Paul now tells us much the same thing.
7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid! Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, "Thou shalt not covet."

8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires - for apart from Torah, sin is dead.
9 I was once alive outside the framework of Torah. But when the commandment really encountered me, sin sprang to life,
To the debarment of truth, many don't look at this verse at all. If they do, they wish to find some way to remove it. As they teach the Torah is sin, and brings sin to the life any that turn to it as a guide. You see with out this verse, one can take the rest, and teach that the Torah makes us sinful. That was not Pauls intent at all, as he made clear here. There is one other teaching on this. In it we find that once we become aware that something is wrong, it becomes sin. Until that time, we may do it, yet if we don't know that is wrong by the Laws of HaShem, then that sin is not counted. As both seem to fit, it is up to the reader to say what they like best.

10 and I died. The commandment that was intended to bring me life was found to be bringing me death!
11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me; and through the commandment, sin killed me.
12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.
13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure.

Paul seems to follow the teaching of Rabbi Tanchuma, who said. The Voice of Adoni, went out from Sinai in 2 ways. In one it killed the heathen that would not accept it; yet it also gave life to to Israel who accepted the Torah.
If the Torah was evil then why would Paul say it was Holy, just and good? It can not be both, and when seen in the light of it being our guide, teacher, and mark to aim for, it is good. If we see it as evil, then that is on us. To make a claim that HaShem place evil over man to rule and force sin up on us,, As one teaching dose claim) turns our hearts away from the truth of HaShem.
14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit; but as for me, I am bound to the old nature, sold to sin as a slave.
15 I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate!
16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good.

A Baptist Pastor friend, who loves to play with words, once said that if Paul wasn't making a play on words here, then it would only show that Paul has lost him mind. You see here Paul tells us one thing, then turns around and it seems he is telling us that the only reason he said it was that he didn't really want to, so that left him no choice, he had to.
Keep in mind I did say this friend liked to play with words. This same man will then turn around and say," Paul being a man, and knowing that he was a slave to sin, just as we all are, know the Torah was good, as it came from HaShem. It is thhe knowing that an action is wrong, that one confirms that the Torah is good. Just as Paul tells us here.
17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me.
18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it!
19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do!
20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me.
21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me!
22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah;

Paul may have seen that his words were a bit troubling, for some to understand. This may well be why he trys to work it through once more. Only now He is telling us that his inner self agrees with the Torah 100%. Don't take my word for it, just read it for yourself.
23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts.
24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death?
25 Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."

Pauls closing here, seems to sum up the whole chapter. The battle we all fight with in our selves, is one of a spiritual nature. One that we are selves will loss. We should all be thankfull, and sing prase to HaShem for his Loving nature, and for Yeshua, who gave His life that we may have faith in His loving trustfulness, to forgive our sins.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Chapter 8
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua.
2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death.
3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature,
4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.

As chapter 8 does seen to be the closing argument for the first 1/2 of the book of Romans, To place it in conflict with the first 7 chapters, would seem a bit counterproductive. David H. Sterm, has this to say. Although it is in my words to save time, so please keep in mind that his commentary is almost 3 pages.
When we see the word therefore, we need to find out what it is there fore. This one seem to indicate this chapter sums up the first 7 chapters. What is meant by the Spirit of Torah? What does Pal mean by the use of the Torah of sin and death?
The wrong answer is that Yeshua gave a god Torah of the spirit which produces life. Rather than the bad Mosaic Laws that porduce sin and death. As has been seen up to this point, the Spirit of Torah is the properly apprehended power of the Holy Spirit in believers. That leads to us living in union with Yeshua.
HaShem sent Yeshua to pay the price for our sins, in Him was fulfilled once and for all the sin sacrifice. In this he opened the door for the Holy Spirit to work the Torah in our lives, as we can't fulfill the Torah with in us on our own. In other words, as true followers, and believers, we walk not according to the flesh, rather according to the Spirit.
5 For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 Having one's mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one's mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom.
7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot.
8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God.
9 But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit - provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn't belong to him.
10 However, if the Messiah is in you, then, on the one hand, the body is dead because of sin; but, on the other hand, the Spirit is giving life because God considers you righteous.
11 And if the Spirit of the One who raised Yeshua from the dead is living in you, then the One who raised the Messiah Yeshua from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit living in you.
One can't claim that they are a true follower, and at the same time reject any part of the Word.This is what Paul intends by how ones mind is controlled. The old nature, (following the flesh) wants to do away with HaShem, or at lest as much of Him as we can. This will open the door foe us to live as we see fit. The total removal of law gives the idea that we can no longer sin. Yet if we walk in disobedience, by transgression of the Law, we walk in sin. Rom. 2:23, Rom. 5:13, 1John 3:4.
12 So then, brothers, we don't owe a thing to our old nature that would require us to live according to our old nature.
13 For if you live according to your old nature, you will certainly die; but if, by the Spirit, you keep putting to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 All who are led by God's Spirit are God's sons.
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to bring you back again into fear; on the contrary, you received the Spirit, who makes us sons and by whose power we cry out, "Abba!" (that is, "Dear Father!").
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our own spirits that we are children of God;
17 and if we are children, then we are also heirs, heirs of God and joint-heirs with the Messiah - provided we are suffering with him in order also to be glorified with him.

As indicated in 14 and 15, we by the Spirit become son's of HaShem, and 17 tells us that by this we also become heirs. Although we don't fully understand this yet, many assumptions are made. However, this is one of the things we would better off to wait and see. True we can turn to this passage and that one, yet the full meaning of this is never truly reveled. Paul does go on to give at lest some insight.
18 I don't think the sufferings we are going through now are even worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed to us in the future.
19 The creation waits eagerly for the sons of God to be revealed;
20 for the creation was made subject to frustration - not willingly, but because of the one who subjected it. But it was given a reliable hope
21 that it too would be set free from its bondage to decay and would enjoy the freedom accompanying the glory that God's children will have.
22 We know that until now, the whole creation has been groaning as with the pains of childbirth;
23 and not only it, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we continue waiting eagerly to be made sons - that is, to have our whole bodies redeemed and set free.
24 It was in this hope that we were saved. But if we see what we hope for, it isn't hope - after all, who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we continue hoping for something we don't see, then we still wait eagerly for it, with perseverance.


It seems that Paul like many of the Sages, places some human attributives on non-human things. As we see here Paul is telling us the earth has hope, and was made frustrated by the sins of man. In that it was forced to share the decay, that comes from sin. Paul does point out through this, that if one holds dear, and walks in Trusting Faithfulness, then the hope of salvation is not lost. Just we will find a new body, so to will the earth be renewed for a time.
26 Similarly, the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we don't know how to pray the way we should. But the Spirit himself pleads on our behalf with groanings too deep for words;
27 and the one who searches hearts knows exactly what the Spirit is thinking, because his pleadings for God's people accord with God's will.
28 Furthermore, we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called in accordance with his purpose;
29 because those whom he knew in advance, he also determined in advance would be conformed to the pattern of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers;
30 and those whom he thus determined in advance, he also called; and those whom he called, he also caused to be considered righteous; and those whom he caused to be considered righteous he also glorified!

I was once asked, "Where was HaShem on 9-11-2001?" Though my answer was not the one hoped for, it was as best as my heart can know, a true one.
On that day, America as a whole came together in prayer. We lifted our voice as one, in that the loved ones of them that lost their lives on that day, would be comforted. Also, many sate and just let the Spirit speak for them. HaShem was with us all on that day. Working to bring good out of the evil that seemed to rule the day. So that His glory would seen by the world, and through this tragic day, many might find salvation. It was through the voices f them that Know HaShem, and walked with him, that the fight was strongest. Sadly, that walk up call had a snooze button. Paul, having seen that out of a ba thing, good can be found, told us of HaShem's willingness to work all things for the good of His people.


31 What, then, are we to say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare even his own Son, but gave him up on behalf of us all - is it possible that, having given us his Son, he would not give us everything else too?
33 So who will bring a charge against God's chosen people? Certainly not God - he is the one who causes them to be considered righteous!

If HaShem is for us, then who can stand against us. Paul in the first 1/2 of this book, has gone to great lengths to show us that once we turn to HaShem, we become new people. That Newness comes not from our own work, rather through the word of the Spirit. So one should understand through the gift of Yeshua, that HaShem will with hold nothing from us. He does not condemn those that accept Yeshua, as it is through this acceptance, that we are considered righteous.
34 Who punishes them? Certainly not the Messiah Yeshua, who died and - more than that - has been raised, is at the right hand of God and is actually pleading on our behalf!

35 Who will separate us from the love of the Messiah? Trouble? Hardship? Persecution? Hunger? Poverty? Danger? War?

36 As the Tanakh puts it, "For your sake we are being put to death all day long, we are considered sheep to be slaughtered."
37 No, in all these things we are superconquerors, through the one who has loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor other heavenly rulers, neither what exists nor what is coming,
39 neither powers above nor powers below, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God which comes to us through the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Romans chapter 9
This chapter may be the most important and complete discussion of the Jewish people in the NT. It is with that in mind, that I pray HaShem will give me the words He wishes to impart on us all.

1 I am speaking the truth - as one who belongs to the Messiah, I do not lie; and also bearing witness is my conscience, governed by the Ruach HaKodesh:
2 my grief is so great, the pain in my heart so constant,
3 that I could wish myself actually under God's curse and separated from the Messiah, if it would help my brothers, my own flesh and blood,

Paul is making it clear to us, just how badly he grieves for Israel. In fact the words used by Paul, (though not a direct quote) echo those of Moses, in Ex. 32:30-32.
4 the people of Isra'el! They were made God's children, the Sh'khinah has been with them, the covenants are theirs, likewise the giving of the Torah, the Temple service and the promises;

5 the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be ADONAI for ever! Amen.

Paul up to now has used the word Jews when speaking of his people. This is also how it is seen in most of the Tanakh. After the 10 northern tribes split from the southern 2 tribes. Israel then spoke to the 10 tribes, and Jews, (short for Judea). This is of interest, as it points to, and let us see that Paul is looking forward to the reunification of Israel. We must also understand that Paul is not talking of all Israel, only those that have not turned to Yeshua.
6 But the present condition of Isra'el does not mean that the Word of God has failed. For not everyone from Isra'el is truly part of Isra'el;
7 indeed, not all the descendants are seed of Avraham; rather, "What is to be called your 'seed' will be in Yitz'chak."

8 In other words, it is not the physical children who are children of God, but the children the promise refers to who are considered seed.

Sadly I have seen this passage used to try and remove the Hebrew people from their land. It is also the backbone of some replacement theology. However, if we keep this in context, then we find that Paul is speaking to that one new man, as can be seen in Rom. 11, and Gal.6:16. There will be more on this when we cover chapter 11.
9 For this is what the promise said: "At the time set, I will come; and Sarah will have a son."

10 And even more to the point is the case of Rivkah; for both her children were conceived in a single act with Yitz'chak, our father;
11 and before they were born, before they had done anything at all, either good or bad (so that God's plan might remain a matter of his sovereign choice, not dependent on what they did, but on God, who does the calling),
12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger."

Though Paul is quoting the Torah, he does so not to place undue burden on anyone. Rather he is showing that HaShem calls the ones He wills. Man kind can do nothing to place a person any place HaShem has not ordained.
13 This accords with where it is written, "Ya'akov I loved, but Esav I hated."

14 So are we to say, "It is unjust for God to do this"? Heaven forbid!
15 For to Moshe he says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will pity whom I pity."
16 Thus it doesn't depend on human desires or efforts, but on God, who has mercy.

As man kind,(at lest some) may see what Paul just said, as HaShems hate being arbitrary, He wishs to point out that HaShem said He has the right to show mercy to whom He will. This may well be Paul telling us that HaShem is not being unfair, as He owes nothing to His to His sinful creatures.
17 For the Tanakh says to Pharaoh, "It is for this very reason that I raised you up, so that in connection with you I might demonstrate my power, so that my name might be known throughout the world."

18 So then, he has mercy on whom he wants, and he hardens whom he wants.
19 But you will say to me, "Then why does he still find fault with us? After all, who resists his will?"

20 Who are you, a mere human being, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me this way?"

Paul's refusal to budge on HaShem's sovereignty, he answer that by pointing out that we have no right to ask why HaShem does what he does. He follows this up, by quoting Isaiah 29, and using the image of the potter and the clay from Jer.18.
21 Or has the potter no right to make from a given lump of clay this pot for honorable use and that one for dishonorable?

22 Now what if God, even though he was quite willing to demonstrate his anger and make known his power, patiently put up with people who deserved punishment and were ripe for destruction?
23 What if he did this in order to make known the riches of his glory to those who are the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory -
24 that is, to us, whom he called not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles?

Can we not see that Paul wish's to help us see that HaShem's mercy is made even more glorious when the background of judgment is clearly perceived? This does seem to be what Paul is pointing to. Made even more clear when Paul adds the following, and points out that salvation is for everyone, and sadly not everyone will find the narrow path.
25 As indeed he says in Hoshea, "Those who were not my people I will call my people; her who was not loved I will call loved;

26 and in the very place where they were told, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called sons of the living God!"
27 But Yesha'yahu, referring to Isra'el, cries out, "Even if the number of people in Isra'el is as large as the number of grains of sand by the sea, only a remnant will be saved.
28 For ADONAI will fulfill his word on the earth with certainty and without delay."
29 Also, as Yesha'yahu said earlier, "If ADONAI-Tzva'ot had not left us a seed, we would have become like S'dom, we would have resembled 'Amora."

Though Paul uses Sodom and Gomorrah in this passage, it is not to say that Israel is beyond redemption. Rather one may wish to see this as Paul giving thanks for HaShem's mercy in sparring the remnant. Though once we see this, are we not to do what we can to help the rest of Israel come to salvation? There will be more on that in times to come. I simply felt a need to point it out now. You see, I have little doubt, that some may be reading this that follow the form of replacement theology, that would lead them to think Israel has be rejected as a whole, and it is a wast of time to try.
30 So, what are we to say? This: that Gentiles, even though they were not striving for righteousness, have obtained righteousness; but it is a righteousness grounded in trusting!

31 However, Isra'el, even though they kept pursuing a Torah that offers righteousness, did not reach what the Torah offers.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue righteousness as being grounded in trusting but as if it were grounded in doing legalistic works. They stumbled over the stone that makes people stumble.

33 As the Tanakh puts it, "Look, I am laying in Tziyon a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will trip them up. But he who rests his trust on it will not be humiliated."

Though Paul does make it clear that the Torah was intended to be followed through, trusting faithfulness, so that it could lead to Faith, and by faith, to salvation. This was not fully understood by many in Israel. For that matter,it is not seen as this by many today. We must all follow what we fell right in our hearts, I can't force a person to walk a path I follow, nor should they try to force theirs on another. Rather, we should respect the teachings of others, even when we don't understand why they follow what they do. In holding to that respect, we should lift all believers in prayer, and frame from any form of judgment. Lest we stumble on that stone, and humiliate ourselves.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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Have you ever wanted to know the man Paul, who he was, what he did, and most of all how he thought? I understand that yes the Word is all we have to work off with him. There are some other books and writers that fill us in on parts we may not know. I have even been told, though never found or read them, that the RCC has records no other church has on Paul.
From some of my studies, I do know that the RCC does have an extensive archive, some writings that date back to around 50 AD if I remember it right.
I am hoping this will stay on the topic of getting to know Paul, and stay clear of any use of Paul to make points that may or may not be true. If I learned anything from my time in Biblical study, both in and out of the class room, it is that if one truly wants to make a point of almost any kind, turn to Paul. His writings can be read to mean almost anything a person wishes to find. Peter tells us this about Paul,
2Pe 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
2Pe 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

This can be seen as a warning to us, that we should know the person, how Paul sees scripture, and just what parts of the Word Paul is calling scripture. It is only with this understanding that one can truly find the truth of his words. So lets get started.

It is a clear fact that Paul only had what many today call the Old Testament. It is from this book that Paul based his teaching. In his writings Paul quotes from or makes clear allusions to the Tanach 111 times. He references the Torah 46 times, the Prophets 42 times, and the Writings 23 times.
In relation the dead sea scroll's represent the following, Deut. 27 times, Isaiah 21 times, and Psalms 39 times. Indicating that Pauls use of the Tanach fits with the general perspective of 1st century Judaisms. (FN) from page 153of the letter Writer, by Tim Hegg.
even more than all of the quotes and references He uses, His own words carry the same messges as the scriptures He is revealing. he says that He has said nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would happen...

its really true when you start reading prophecy and His epistles together in studies. books Like isaiah and ezekiel, daniel, psalms. really Have everything in them it wasnt until Jesus arrived that the spirit was available to open the scriptures up to man in order to see the mysteries that were Kept Hidden in the ot at the appointed time.

I was reading earlier this evening about paul and what an amazing Life He led, and also what hardships he endured for the sake of Jesus Christ. i think as well that God choosing Him to do what He did knowing He was a persecuter of the church among other things, to totally change His life as He did, is a good similitude for us sinners in the world to let Gods Power change Our Lives and create the true passion that comes with Jesus Christ in Our Hearts
 
N

NewlydivorcedChristianmom

Guest
Have you ever wanted to know the man Paul, who he was, what he did, and most of all how he thought? I understand that yes the Word is all we have to work off with him. There are some other books and writers that fill us in on parts we may not know. I have even been told, though never found or read them, that the RCC has records no other church has on Paul.
From some of my studies, I do know that the RCC does have an extensive archive, some writings that date back to around 50 AD if I remember it right.
I am hoping this will stay on the topic of getting to know Paul, and stay clear of any use of Paul to make points that may or may not be true. If I learned anything from my time in Biblical study, both in and out of the class room, it is that if one truly wants to make a point of almost any kind, turn to Paul. His writings can be read to mean almost anything a person wishes to find. Peter tells us this about Paul,
2Pe 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
2Pe 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

This can be seen as a warning to us, that we should know the person, how Paul sees scripture, and just what parts of the Word Paul is calling scripture. It is only with this understanding that one can truly find the truth of his words. So lets get started.

It is a clear fact that Paul only had what many today call the Old Testament. It is from this book that Paul based his teaching. In his writings Paul quotes from or makes clear allusions to the Tanach 111 times. He references the Torah 46 times, the Prophets 42 times, and the Writings 23 times.
In relation the dead sea scroll's represent the following, Deut. 27 times, Isaiah 21 times, and Psalms 39 times. Indicating that Pauls use of the Tanach fits with the general perspective of 1st century Judaisms. (FN) from page 153of the letter Writer, by Tim Hegg.
I think the biggest thing about The Apostle Paul that relates to me is, he had joy in suffering.
He was single, he suffered many kinds of torture and imprisonment.
He said that he counted it all joy.
He set his affections on things above and press towards that mark.
We can learn a lot from Paul but what is in The Bible is the most important things I've learned about him.
I really loved how his character changed when he changed from Saul to Paul.
He wanted to step behind Christ and others.
He leaves quite a large testimony for us single people.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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I think the biggest thing about The Apostle Paul that relates to me is, he had joy in suffering.
He was single, he suffered many kinds of torture and imprisonment.
He said that he counted it all joy.
He set his affections on things above and press towards that mark.
We can learn a lot from Paul but what is in The Bible is the most important things I've learned about him.
I really loved how his character changed when he changed from Saul to Paul.
He wanted to step behind Christ and others.
He leaves quite a large testimony for us single people.
so many wonderful stories in acts about paul. i love when He is dragged out of the city and beaten and left for dead because He was preaching, and then He is revived by the apostles and heads back into the city. :) also His last epistle written just before His second appearance before nero, He seems to Know His time is up , similarly to peter who says the Lord had made it clear to Him He would soon part from His body. i think we sometimes forget that what we are reading about is true events,

real Men of God that were suffering mass executions, mass persecution and imprisonements. they were set on fire and crucified, boiled in oil, thrown to packs of wild dogs and torn to peices by Hungry Lions. they were set afire and used to light neros Garden, they were sawed in half, burned at the stake, fastened to glowing metal chairs, Beheaded, skinned alive......and it seems thier focus was on Joy and peace and always upon edifying the church with some small bit more, it seems thier concern is never thier own Lives, but the brethren and the lost believers. Because those men obeyed God, we have the Word of God written down to Learn and Know. amazing men
 

Rainrider

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Romans 10

1 Brothers, my heart's deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra'el is for their salvation;
2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding;

Paul points out that the zeal of many is based incorrect understanding. Also we will find that each verse seems to explain the one before it. At lest through most of this chapter.
3 for, since they are unaware of God's way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God's way of making people righteous.

4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

Once more Paul speaks of the old teaching by many that salvation comes from works. This is seen in that he tells us they have not submitted to HaShems way of making people righteous. Just as they do not understand that Yeshua was the one of whom the Torah talked. Offering righteousness to the world. Sadly, many today miss the fact that the Torah also showed that all people could find righteousness, by faith.
5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them.

Many people see this verse as saying that Moses wrote that righteousness came only by doing physical acts. To them I say, please take time to truly study the Torah. It does hold with in it laws, things that should be done yes. Yet to really understand it, shows that it was the acts, it was doing them in trusting faithfulness, that gave life. I would never ask anyone to study Torah from the mind set of salvation by works. Even in Abraham's life, as Paul pointed out, Salvation was by faith, followed by obedience.
6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend to heaven?'" that is, to bring the Messiah down -

7 or, "'Who will descend into Sh'ol?'" that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead.

Although this may sound strang, Paul is useing the Torah once more and applying it to Yeshua. We have no need to go to heaven to find him, nor do we need to go to the place of the dead, as HaShem has already raised Him from their. So what part of Torah is Paul speaking from? Deut. 30:12-14
8 What, then, does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart."l that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely,

9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered.

10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance.

The thing Israel,(and the world) is to do, is the Word. The Word, as I will maintain, is not about the ritualistic keeping of laws. It is about trusting faithfulness, showing this faith in both words and deeds to the world. If one hides their faith, then that faith is dead, and does nothing for them. If one doesn't follow in faith, their deeds will show their lack of, and their words will not be seen as any better than the words of one lost to faith.
11 For the pas sage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated.

12 That means that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - ADONAI is the same for everyone, rich toward everyone who calls on him,
13 since everyone who calls on the name of ADONAI will be delivered.

The above needs no commentary. Or at lest it shouldn't. Though it does make clear that HaShem has not rejected His chosen people.
14 But how can they call on someone if they haven't trusted in him? And how can they trust in someone if they haven't heard about him? And how can they hear about someone if no one is proclaiming him?

15 And how can people proclaim him unless God sends them? - as the Tanakh puts it, "How beautiful are the feet of those announcing good news about good things!"

Paul makes a good point here. However, after going to Israel, and speaking to many of the people there, I will say, that one should temper their words with love, and kindness. As Paul said above, say and live it. The number of people I talked with in Israel that at first wanted nothing to with what I had to teach, soon learned that I didn't condemn them. Nor did I place undue, or unwarranted teaching on the Torah. It was once said that seeing the Torah at working ones life, changes how they relate to Israel. As it removes undue hostility, and misunderstanding of the Torah. Please keep that i mind, as it will come back up, only if you missed it here, you will for sure miss tehm meaning of when it comes back around.
16 The problem is that they haven't all paid attention to the Good News and obeyed it. For Yesha'yahu says, "ADONAI, who has trusted what he has heard from us?"

17 So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.
18 "But, I say, isn't it rather that they didn't hear?" No, they did hear "Their voice has gone out throughout the whole world and their words to the ends of the earth."
19 "But, I say, isn't it rather that Isra'el didn't understand?" "I will provoke you to jealousy over a non-nation, over a nation void of understanding I will make you angry."
20 Moreover, Yesha'yahu boldly says, "I was found by those who were not looking for me, I became known to those who did not ask for me";
21 but to Isra'el he says, "All day long I held out my hands to a people who kept disobeying and contradicting."




What Paul is saying that Israel didn't understand was the context of Is. 53. He goes on to speak of them not understanding, that they would be provoke to jealousy by a non-nation. A nation void of understanding. This may well be talking of us, in that we didn't have the Torah, yet we found the truth with out it. Yet if we are to provoke Israel, they must first find no contradiction in our words and actions. To say we are true believers, and follows, means that in our lives, there must be nothing that shows a lake of faith, and/or obedience. I do hope you seen that.
 

Blik

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Raisaying said:
The rituals that Paul did not require of gentiles were like the men who walked with children going to school. circumcision was a sign of obedience to God, a setting apart. Diet led Jews to think of being pure, of not "eating" garbage. The feasts are different. They show us God's plan for our salvation and there is scripture telling us to always celebrate that, none telling us not to. Some people quote the scripture are days of the week to worship, but all worship has dates. Even the NT guides us to obedience 0f all the rituals were to help the Jews obey, but we are told t0 d9 these things guided by the Holy Spirit instead of the rituals.
 

Rainrider

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The rituals that Paul did not require of gentiles were like the men who walked with children going to school. circumcision was a sign of obedience to God, a setting apart. Diet led Jews to think of being pure, of not "eating" garbage. The feasts are different. They show us God's plan for our salvation and there is scripture telling us to always celebrate that, none telling us not to. Some people quote the scripture are days of the week to worship, but all worship has dates. Even the NT guides us to obedience 0f all the rituals were to help the Jews obey, but we are told t0 d9 these things guided by the Holy Spirit instead of the rituals.
That is the point of all things we are to follow. Even in the OT the point was not to have a legalistic adherents, rather to follow by faith, and trust. Should one do this, they will find that their life is happier, and walking in the Word is just way to easy.
 

Blik

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That is the point of all things we are to follow. Even in the OT the point was not to have a legalistic adherents, rather to follow by faith, and trust. Should one do this, they will find that their life is happier, and walking in the Word is just way to easy.
Isn't this the wonderful truth! When we give our will over to God to be guided by His ways we can quit worrying come lost friends, hurricane, divorce--anything. We are in God's care and with joy of the Lord in our hearts and faith in God's ways we will find a way to cope.

The worst that can happen to us is death, and God is even there to take us where there are many mansions.
 

Rainrider

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Romans 11

This just happens to be one of my favorite chapters in the NT. As it was having this chapter explained to me in a way, that the SDA had worked hard to avoid, that opened my eyes to the lie of Israel being rejected. It is with the hope of doing as good of a job now as was done when my eyes were opened.

1 "In that case, I say, isn't it that God has repudiated his people?" Heaven forbid! For I myself am a son of Isra'el, from the seed of Avraham, of the tribe of Binyamin.
2 God has not repudiated his people, whom he chose in advance. Or don't you know what the Tanakh says about Eliyahu? He pleads with God against Isra'el,

as always in an effort to be fare, I will open with 2 teaching on the above passage. The first does leave a bad taste in my mouth. In it we are told that Paul being a Jew himself, didn't want to face the fact that the Jewish people were replaced by the church. This teaching also goes on to try and use the rest of this chapter to show hat there is only a spiritual Israel now.
The other wishes to place this chapter in context, and show us that Paul was not showing favoritism, rather showing us how he seen the facts. As can be seen i the first verse, Paul uses wording that makes it clear he does not think that HaShem backed out of a covenant made some 3000 year before. Give or take a little on that 3000.
3 "ADONAI, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars, and I'm the only one left, and now they want to kill me too!"

4 But what is God's answer to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt down to Ba'al."

Paul uses 1Kings 19 to make his point. As we know from this, HaShem held 7000 Israelite's to Himself. By the Spirit, He keep them from worshiping Baal. Through them Israel would be saved, and restored to their faith. Ever time Israel has rebelled, a remnant was hold in faith, by HaShem. This can be seen all through the the Tanakh.

5 It's the same way in the present age: there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

6 (Now if it is by grace, it is accordingly not based on legalistic works; if it were otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.)

Though some today wish to remove Israel, and replace much of the Biblical teachings, the cold hard fact remains. A remnant of Israel is still walking in faith. Has seen the light, and understands who Yeshua is. Paul will show us in a bit, just what that means for us gentiles.
7 What follows is that Isra'el has not attained the goal for which she is striving. The ones chosen have obtained it, but the rest have been made stonelike,

8 just as the Tanakh says, "God has given them a spirit of dullness eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear, right down to the present day."
9 And David says, "Let their dining table become for them a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a punishment.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they can't see, with their backs bent continually."

Many translations use the phrase was striving. This can mislead one to think that Israel is no longer striving for righteousness. Yet with a simply glance at Israel today, it is clear that they are. It is true that many haven't came to an understanding of who Yeshua is, the number of them that have is growing almost daily. This should be in our prayers always. Though it does show that HaShem still loves His people, and is working in them to lea as many a He can to salvation. Can we get a great big AMEN to that?
11 "In that case, I say, isn't it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?" Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy.

Once more Paul talks of the gentile nations provoking jealousy with in the Jewish nation. As this makes the 3rd time this has been brought out, it should be something we are working on doing. This however can never be done when they see only bickering between the churchs, and infighting with in each denomination.
12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world - that is, if Isra'el's being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter - how much greater riches will Isra'el in its fullness bring them!

The answer to this can be seen in the teachings of many Messianic teachers. For it is in their understanding of both the Tanakh, and NT that much of is over looked, can be found. We should never look at them as trying to convert any one to Judaism, as that does seem to the farthest thing from their minds. What they try to do is to teach us the things that Christianity has neglected for close to 2000 years. The words of Paul here do point to this form of riches, and not that of monetary wealth.
13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work

14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them!
15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!
16 Now if the hallah offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Hallah if I remember this right is talking of the share of the bough set aside for the cohanim,( priest) in accordance with numbers 15:20. It was this part that made the whole loaf holy, and If Abraham was holy, being the root of salvation, the the branches are as well.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you - a wild olive - were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,

The use of the olive tree has so many depths to it. First the Olive tree was used a symbol of Israel in the Tanakh, Jer. 11:16, and Hos 14:5-6 come to mind. Next, a little know fact. A wild olive doesn't produce good fruit, yet if a branch is grafted into a cultivate tree, it will start to produce good fruit.
18 then don't boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.

As we should all know, the basses of our faith comes from the Jewish people. This root is what gives life to the things we hold dear and follow to this day. However, many today think themselves better than the root. This was, and still is to some extent a product of the church of Rome. As it was mostly gentile, they held a dominant role. This lead to many bragging about their status, while treating the Jews and their heritage with disdain.
19 So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you!

Paul here is trying to make it clear that though some of the branches were removed to make room of us, we must keep in mind that the root, weather you see it as Abraham, Yeshua, or the patriarchs, the Messianic Jews, or all of Israel, the root is Judaism, and this can't be changed. Should we be a bit more willing to think on this passage, we may be bit slower to belittle, or degrade the Jewish people, or their teachings.
22 So take a good look at God's kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God's kindness toward you - provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!

23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.

We should be glad that HaShem in kind, and Loving. He removed the branches that lost their faith, and stopped trusting in His love, and sovereignty. Rather worked on their own for salivation. Just as if we turn to our own works of goodness, for salvation, we too can be cut off. However in His loving kindness, once a person that lost faith finds it once more, they will be put back in their place.
24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won't imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra'el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness;

There are some that teach this means there are a set number of Gentiles that will be saved. Once that number is reached, Salvation will be removed from the gentile world. However, their is another teaching, one that in my mind seems a bit more real. In it we find that fullness doesn't relate to a number, rather to breath of representation. In that once the Word has been given to all Gentile nations, the end will come.
26 and that it is in this way that all Isra'el will be saved. As the Tanakh says, "Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya'akov

27 and this will be my covenant with them, . . . when I take away their sins."
28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs' sake,

The idea that the Jewish people are hated in respect to the God News, is a key point used to say Israel has been rejected. However as I was shown, A lot of the Jewish people rejected Yeshua, that does not mean that they all did. This is clear in much of Pauls writings. He does go into the Synagogue to teach. A place that both Jew and gentile gathered to learn from the Scripture. Also Paul tell us that Israel is still loved. SO as my Rabbi made clear, HaShem will not work to bring salvation to a people he hates, so He must still hold Israel dear to His heart. This teaching is followed in much of the NT. Rev. 7 come to mind.
29 for God's free gifts and his calling are irrevocable.

30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra'el's disobedience;
31 so also Isra'el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God's mercy.
32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all.
33 O the depth of the riches and the wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments! How unsearchable are his ways!
34 For, 'Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been his counselor?'

35 Or, 'Who has given him anything and made him pay it back?'
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

I understand that some will say I didn't cover every single word give in this chapter. To you say, I can only pray that what was said, finds a home in your heart.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Hi Rainrider, thanks for all you are sharing here. Studying along with your posts have been enlightening and edifying. Been doing an in-depth study of Leviticus and wanted to mention what I found concerning ~Romans 11:13-16

“I am talking to you Gentiles.
Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles,
I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I
may somehow arouse my own people to envy
and save some of them.
For if their rejection brought reconciliation
to the world,
what will their acceptance be
but life from the dead?
If the part of the dough offered
as firstfruits is holy,
then the whole batch is holy;
if the root is holy,
so are the branches."

This is what it says in Leviticus~
“If you bring a grain offering of firstfruits to Adonai, you are to bring as the grain offering from your firstfruits kernels of grain from fresh ears, dry-roasted with fire.”-Leviticus 2:14

This special use FIRSTFRUITS offering could be made more than once in a year, with the barley and later with the wheat. It was presented as a stand alone offering, IOW it was not made with the burnt offering (olah). The steps are basically these:
The worshipper prepared the dough, then handed it over to the priest. The priest would take a handful and throw it onto the Brazen Alter where it would be completely consumed. The remainder was given to the priests for their food and they had to eat this on the Tabernacle grounds as it was considered sacred and had to be eated before Almighty.

The Hebrew word for “handful” here is KOMETS. The sense is, it is a super duper small portion, really tiny. Here's the kicker, that tiny amount from the entire lump of dough was taken and put on the brazen altar to be burned up, it had the symbolic effect of making the whole lump, the majority portion that was NOT put on the altar BECOME holy.

Wow. Are you seein' what I'm seein'? I think Paul is saying that if Yeshua as the First Fruits of God’s sacrifice is holy, so is the nation Israel, from whence He came.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
I'm sorry, too late to edit (bummer) and forgot the other verse where Paul quotes Leviticus 2-8: If part of the firstfruits dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy!
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Well, you are at liberty to learn falsehoods. I shall not interrupt you two anymore.

Where do you get the authority to determine for someone else what is true and what is false.

Is nobody allowed to disagree with you?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Hi Rainrider, thanks for all you are sharing here. Studying along with your posts have been enlightening and edifying. Been doing an in-depth study of Leviticus and wanted to mention what I found concerning ~Romans 11:13-16

“I am talking to you Gentiles.
Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles,
I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I
may somehow arouse my own people to envy
and save some of them.
For if their rejection brought reconciliation
to the world,
what will their acceptance be
but life from the dead?
If the part of the dough offered
as firstfruits is holy,
then the whole batch is holy;
if the root is holy,
so are the branches."

This is what it says in Leviticus~
“If you bring a grain offering of firstfruits to Adonai, you are to bring as the grain offering from your firstfruits kernels of grain from fresh ears, dry-roasted with fire.”-Leviticus 2:14

This special use FIRSTFRUITS offering could be made more than once in a year, with the barley and later with the wheat. It was presented as a stand alone offering, IOW it was not made with the burnt offering (olah). The steps are basically these:
The worshipper prepared the dough, then handed it over to the priest. The priest would take a handful and throw it onto the Brazen Alter where it would be completely consumed. The remainder was given to the priests for their food and they had to eat this on the Tabernacle grounds as it was considered sacred and had to be eated before Almighty.

The Hebrew word for “handful” here is KOMETS. The sense is, it is a super duper small portion, really tiny. Here's the kicker, that tiny amount from the entire lump of dough was taken and put on the brazen altar to be burned up, it had the symbolic effect of making the whole lump, the majority portion that was NOT put on the altar BECOME holy.

Wow. Are you seein' what I'm seein'? I think Paul is saying that if Yeshua as the First Fruits of God’s sacrifice is holy, so is the nation Israel, from whence He came.
I do agree with that for sure. Yet I thought Paul was telling us that the whole world could be made Holy.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
I do agree with that for sure. Yet I thought Paul was telling us that the whole world could be made Holy.
Messiah did say "Son of Man" many times for sure. He takes away the sins of the whole world. Yes I guess you're right. But I have a question, If I, for example, am grafted in, to what am I grafted into but Israel? Which brings to mind another question. Messiah said He was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. If I am not part of that group then where do I fit in? What about the 2 sticks? Don't we all have to graft into one or the other? Sorry for all the questions but like I said I was raised Baptist.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Messiah did say "Son of Man" many times for sure. He takes away the sins of the whole world. Yes I guess you're right. But I have a question, If I, for example, am grafted in, to what am I grafted into but Israel?
We are in truth grafted in as partakers of HaShem's promises. We don't become a part of the blood line of Israel, as is made clear to us in Rev. 7.
Which brings to mind another question. Messiah said He was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. If I am not part of that group then where do I fit in?
In Yeshua's ministry on earth, He was sent only to the house of Israel. Mark 16:14-15 makes it clear that His disciples were to go to the world.
What about the 2 sticks? Don't we all have to graft into one or the other? Sorry for all the questions but like I said I was raised Baptist.
I am unclear what you mean by the 2 sticks, sorry. Though if I am thinking on the right path, we are only grafted into the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. The other,( like I said if i am on the right path) would be the lost of this world. They have need of being grafted in, as they walk a desolate path. I know I may be way off on that, so please ask that in another way. I do wish for you get the answer you are looking for.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
We are in truth grafted in as partakers of HaShem's promises. We don't become a part of the blood line of Israel, as is made clear to us in Rev. 7.

In Yeshua's ministry on earth, He was sent only to the house of Israel. Mark 16:14-15 makes it clear that His disciples were to go to the world.

I am unclear what you mean by the 2 sticks, sorry. Though if I am thinking on the right path, we are only grafted into the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. The other,( like I said if i am on the right path) would be the lost of this world. They have need of being grafted in, as they walk a desolate path. I know I may be way off on that, so please ask that in another way. I do wish for you get the answer you are looking for.
Hi and thanks for your patience. In trying to understand Paul, I keep referring to OT to compare. Posting some of what I'm looking at (and pondering), then I will leave it there so as not to sidetrack your thread further. Perhaps when time permits I will make a thread on it and you can add your knowledge there.
=====================
⦁ “Wild olive tree” branch = Israel
⦁ “Natural” branch = Judah

Ezekiel 37: (16) “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ (17) “Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand. (18) “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’– (19) “say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ‘ (20) “And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. (21) “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; (22) “and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

+++++++++++++++++
 

Rainrider

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Jun 17, 2017
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Hi and thanks for your patience. In trying to understand Paul, I keep referring to OT to compare. Posting some of what I'm looking at (and pondering), then I will leave it there so as not to sidetrack your thread further. Perhaps when time permits I will make a thread on it and you can add your knowledge there.
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⦁ “Wild olive tree” branch = Israel
⦁ “Natural” branch = Judah

Ezekiel 37: (16) “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ (17) “Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand. (18) “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’– (19) “say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ‘ (20) “And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. (21) “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; (22) “and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

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The Wild Olive are the gentile people that have turned their life to HaShem, excepting the sacrifice of Yeshua as their means to forgiveness.
The cultivated Olive tree is Israel, the branches that had been cut off would be the people of Israel that have not found the faith of Yeshua.

As to Exe. 37. This is dealing with Israel, and Judah. Though some do teach this to be speaking of the resurrection, I find that to miss the point. When read in context with the whole of the chapter, (if I am right) this chapter speaks to a time when the 10 northern tribes will be reunited with the 2 southern tribes. The are some that teach this has already came to be. Yet I place before you one question. If at has came about in the past, then why are the 10 northern tribes called lost to this day?

As we live and speak, HaShem is calling all of Israel back to the land. The tribes are united once more, and working toward the same goals. So what you are reading in Exe. has nothing to do with Romans 11. Although it is good that you ask, rather not find an answer.
Isn't it great to live in an age when we see so much prophecy coming to pass? Even Exe. 28-29 can be seen coming about. Though we have not seen the war it's self, the players are falling into place, and I fear the USA and Briton are about to fall as well.