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Thread: Lets talk about Paul

  1. #381
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 1

    This letter opens with an introduction, as all of Paul's letter do. In it we find a custom followed by many Jewish people today. In that Paul gives praise to HaShem. Many Jewish people don't use HaShem, and Yeshua are not seen as interchangeable. Not many people do really. Also there are not many that give praise to Yeshua, though we may bless Him at times.
    As we read on, 8-11, we are told about the effectiveness of prayer. Paul in a way gives thanks for the prayer others lifted him up in. Telling how he feels it may have saved his life.
    15-19 reads as though some may have charged that Paul was insincere, and doesn't keep his word. To defend himself, Paul points out that HaShem has always done what He side He would. Never giving a yes for a no. Though at times some may think HaShem has not fulfilled His word, it may just be that when they ask for something, the answer was a no, or not right now.
    20 This passage has fueled replacment theology for many year. In that they see this as Paul teaching that they teach it to say, "All OT promises have been fulfilled, leaving nothing for the Jewish people. This shows that HaShem has rejected Israel, and replaced it with the church, this is seen in the NT promises that were given only to the church."
    A sad misuse of the passage to say the lest. This passage comes about as close to saying that, as it does that Satan will leave us a lone. Also when asked about the State of Israel today, many pass that off as the hand of man. Others have also said it was the work of Satan, so that he could lead some to worship him with out them knowing it.
    We should add them to our prayer, and resist the urge belittle them. After all, they doing what so many today are doing, simply taking the word of their teachers, with out testing it against all scripture. If they did, they would be sure to find, (if they seek the truth with an open heart and mind) the return of the people to Israel, is also in fulfillment of scripture. As Yeshua is our yes, and all promises are fulfilled in Him, it then becomes hard to say that Israel has been given everything they are going to get.
    MarcR likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 2
    1-4 Their are many that see this as hinting at a 3rd letter, that has never cannoned. Some say it was lost, others say it was simply left out. No matter how one looks at that, the fact still remains the letter we don't have seems to have done it's intended work. In that it brought about the change Paul had hoped for.
    5-8 I am not sure why Paul felt the need to ask that they comfort the one that was making trouble, as it would seem that if they heard the good news, they would know to forgive. One contaminator however, tells us that the man had been disciplined by the church, and repented. So Paul was simply asking that they do as he had, and forgive. After all it is much easier to forgive than to harbor ill feelings. To expand on that teaching just a bit. If we as humans were to place a brick in a good strong bag every time we held on to bad thoughts, or feelings toward someone. That bag would become way to heavy to carry. Now if we turn around and remove one, for every person we truly forgive, making sure not to leave anyone out, before long we only have a bag, that we had no use for.
    9-11 By the act of forgiving, we remove a tool Satan uses against us. As Yeshua told us, Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
    To some the above means that if we are unwilling to forgive others, HaShem will not forgive us.
    12-17 This chapter closes with Paul giving praise to HaShem for the work He has done through Paul. The idea of him being watched in our every action, may well be seen as literal. Yet there are some that see this as being a reminder, that the word we teach should always be truth. Even if others around us hate what we teach.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  3. #383
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    How is the talk about Paul going Mr Rainrider?

    I guess we all have Have our road to Damascus in a sense.. not all called to Apostleship or literally blinded.. but we all have our story to Praise and Glorify the Lord for conversion..

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    How is the talk about Paul going Mr Rainrider?

    I guess we all have Have our road to Damascus in a sense.. not all called to Apostleship or literally blinded.. but we all have our story to Praise and Glorify the Lord for conversion..
    It is going well thank you for asking.
    loveme1 and MarcR like this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  5. #385
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2Cor 3

    1-3 Here we find the point many try to make all the time. When we speak of of our testimony, All the words in the world can only serve to help others understand what we went through. It is only in our actions that people can see the true light, love, and compassion that is the spirit working the true will of HaShem in us. The Laws written our hearts, and in our minds are how we are guided in our walk.

    4-6 Never has a man ever told me they are qualified to teach the word due to their time spent in some school, and had me convinced that we must go to class. I read a commentary on this once, that made the same claim many in the world do today. In it we find a sad misconception. It said something like this, (not an exact quote) "The old covenant was a religion of laws, followed by the interpretation of the Rabbi's. It leads to transgression and pride, both sin, and both bring death." The reason I a sad misconception, as it fail's to make clear that even in the Torah, (the so called religion it speaks to) Salvation was obtained by the following of laws, or the costumes of man. Even then it was a gift of HaShem, that was given only through faith, followed by obedience. Obedience alone with out faith , or faith without obedience just as today leads to death.

    7-11 To barrow the words of a man I am now studding under. "This passage gives us a clear pitcher of both the old and new covenant. Both started with such glory that it was seen in the face of man. The light we seek was so bright, that others know you were a true follower, simply by looking at you. As with most things however, that light faded. Not from Moses' face, it has also faded from the body of the church." His one question goes as follows, "What lead to this diminished glory?" Keep in mind no answer is wrong, or right. Their is however one that is a little more right then the rest. Satan has found his way into maost church's and has robed us of many truths.

    12-15 One commentator had this to say, "The old covenant led to fear and didn't remove spiritual blindness." This however can be shown wrong if one takes the time to read the Tanakh. Were we find many that were not blind. The prophets were filled with the Spirit, and even some of the leaders of Israel. One other commentator writes, "The old covenant has not been changed as much as some wish to think. It was however made corrupt by the religious leaders of that time. Just as the New covenant has not changed much from the old, it has been made corrupt by the many leaders in it, that are in it only for money. True faith, and salvation has been found in both, yet it does at times become necessary to reject the teachings of ones leader to obtain it."

    16-18 There is one commentator that makes a mistake one should do their best to stay clear of. That is to claim that we have something Moses never knew. In that we now have true salvation, and we know the Spirit of HaShem. I find it sad that anyone would think this way, Moses, a man that spoke face to face with HaShem, didn't know the Spirit? Really?
    In closing, I am going to sum this up as best I can with my own words. Not something I like doing, however, at this time, there is something on my heart that needs to be said.
    The world has became so convinced that HaShem has somehow changed, that He would now offer us salvation that He with held from Israel for some 4000 years. It is passed off as truth, and take in the minds of so many, as fact. Yet with a simple reading of the Tanakh, this teaching loses it's luster. Or it should. We know that HaShem doesn't change, Mal. 3:6, Heb13:8 bare witness to this. SO try and change Him now, so that He better fits our needs, is a sin of it's own. Paul made it clear that we are changed to become more like Him, never doe Paul say HaShem will change to more like what we want.
    MarcR likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  6. #386
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 4

    1-2 One writer, has a lot to say about this passage. To cut it short I am going to say it in my own words. As it is something that I have not only seen, have also fought to stop. First let me be clear on something. I do follow Torah as best as I can, yet I don't push that on others. If I am asked, I am willing to give my reasons why I do what I do. It should stop there, and not have anyone try to make me see things their way. The other, the way I see scripture is how I tell it. If others simply don't see that way, it is not an open door to beat a dead horse. After all, I have been down that road many times, and it has never changed how I understand one word of scripture.
    That said, the writer I speak of has this to say. ( in my words not his). Paul had been accused of twisting the Tanakh to sut his own needs, and of using underhanded meatheads to reach others. Just as some Messianic Jewish congregations, and "Christians" have. BY misusing and distort Jewish sancta. Things like using a Kippah, tafillin, tallit, Shabbat candles, Torah scrolls, and the feast. This is many times done to creat a false impression that these groups are Jewish and not "Christian". Many times this is done to draw in Jewish people, leading them to think they are not trying to convert them. Just as their are some that wish to get others to follow Torah, explaining how it is only to better help one walk as Yeshua walked. Then slowly, they try to get others to convert to Judaism. Nether way is expendable in my book. Both have their foundation in lies, and is the work of Satan.
    Before anyone jumps to any conclusion, I have sat with Orthodox Jewish family's for Passover. It was made clear from the onset, that I was only there to learn what I could, I was not Jewish, and would never try to change anything bout their faith. Nether them or I brought up anything that didn't have to do with Passover, as they seen it. After however, when I was asked what was different from how I see it, the door was open, and we talked for some time. We parted ways, and to this day we email, and have a friendship that has grown out of honesty, and respect.
    So when someone tells me I am Judaizer, in my mind it only shows a lack of, or unwillingness to excetp that my walk is mine, and is done in the way that it is to be more like Yeshua. Besides, is it wrong to give my life over to Yeshua, in every way I see fit? After all, He gave His life for me.
    3-6 There are some in the world that simply haven't hear the "GOOD NEWS" in a way they understand. Still others simply will not hear it. To them it is hidden. Satan fights to keep it that way, by any means he can. There are some people that find it much easier to talk about their day at work and so on. The Word is something that is not a part of their daily topic. Others find that even talking about a movie they seen, somehow turns to the Word. Why not, after all HaShem, who said Let there by light, placed a part of that light in us. It is there to be seen, so why let it shine on others around you? Ever had someone you didn't know walk up and ask, "Are you a believer?" If not, your light may well be hidden.
    8-10 In today's world, we who do believe, are being persecuted, killed, and face the idea that one day soon we will hunted down like rabid dogs. Yet I will bet that their isn't any true believer ready to give up the fight, and play dead. Even as we look what is going on the world, and find much of it hard to understand, or even believe, we hold on to the faith that we will in the end be granted a life in Heaven.
    13-15 As I have said many times in my life. Yes it has cost me a job or 2 in the past. Still, I walk by faith, and that faith moves me to speak, ever when I am told not to. You see Just like Paul tries to explain, If we walk in trusting faithfulness, nothing on this earth holds much glamor for us. Jobs come and go, hunger, illness, friends, and family are lost at some point. Yet in it all, we should find joy. If we set our eyes on what is to come, no mater what we face on this earth, can do nothing to change the gift we will find in the end.

    In closing, I simply wish to add one thing. Call it what you will, think of it how you will. In our lives, we all find others that walk the same walk we do. So to use an odd analogy. I will ask one thing, then explain what I am asking.
    Are you the dry wall, or the stud behind it? Both need to be in place to say the house is finished. The dry wall is there for all to see, We pain it, hang things on it, and still their it is. Little thought is given to the stud, until you want to hang something heavy. Yet it is what holds your roof up, it hides behind the nicely painted dry wall, gets no attention at all really.
    The reason I asked. That stud is in a way the world. Without it, you don't have a place to live. If you see your self as the stud, you may need wish to rethink that.
    The dry wall, the world can do with out. It has it's place, and to some it finishes the work of the house. Yes it is nice, and just what kind of house would be without it? Still for the purpose of this analogy, lets just say the dry wall is the people that are nice, and help the world look good. They are not really a part of the world however. They can be removed, and the world will go on without a hitch.
    Still think of your self as the stud? Many people do, until they find out that the dry wall is in fact the true believer. The stud on the other hand is the one that says, "I believe" yet are not. They hid themselves, in a place that makes them hard to distinguish and find. The dry wall on the other hand, wants everyone to know. It stands out, and tells a story. It is unashamed, and bold in it's telling. So once more, are you the dry wall or stud? I am sure that many have changed their mind.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  7. #387
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 5
    1-5 there is one teaching on this that I may have covered already. I it we we find that the body we have now will be the body we have in Heaven. For us that are old, and suffer from one thing or another, that will not be there with us, so don't panic. Rather the body we will have will be the one we have, only it will be as it was in our prime.
    Then we have the other side of the coin. Here we are told that we will not have a physical body. We will be in a spiritual body. As for me, I wish us to look at this only from what we are being told. As not one of us have first hand knowledge, it really is all we have. It is clear that we will not be a spirit with out a body, If we look to Yeshua as the example, after 40days He was lifted into heaven with His body. We are never told His body was left behind, in fact, we should know that His body didn't remain in the grave. Also we are told the dead in Yeshua will in like manner be raised. Yet if HaShem has prepared us a new body, what use would we have of this one? It is always illadvised to speak as though you something you don't. So just one last thing. Can it be that HaShem has in mind to give us a body our loved ones will know, that no longer has the pains, or illness that come with age?
    6-10 If one has faith, they hold dear the promise of life. Knowing, not hoping that we will one day walk with Yeshua. The Spirit with in us can be seen as a down payment on that. OPur goal, should be please Yeshua in all that we do, in our words, hopes, and actions. After all, if we trust what we are told, we will stand in judgment for our actions. If this was not the truth, would the Word tell us that we will be given what we deserve for the good, or evil we have done in this body?
    11-15 When a person can be seen as opening their heart, that person is being true to who they are. If it be a person of faith, faithfulness with shine in them. A person that is only there to put on a show, that will be be seen, in many ways. I am sure we all know, or have heard of leaders of some church or another, that tells us, "Send in $100, and you will get $1000 in return." Or they have a tv show, (I say show, as what they do is only to entertain) and they teach things like, "HaShem doesn't want you poor, He wants us to all have the best the world has to offer." The thing is, HaShem wants us to have the best HE has to offer. The things of this earth mean nothing at all.
    Paul wishes to make it clear that he is not bragging about himself, or others like him. In this passage we find the answer to any that put on a show, and live the high life. They make the claim that they healed, they did this and it was them that did that. When in all truth, with out Yeshua, and faith of the ones being healed, none of it would have came to be.
    Yeshua gave His life for us all, and even if we don't see the same things from His word, it is al good. You see, we have died to what we were, and were raised into a new life. Our understand changes as we grow, and learn. We can place the truth of we understand out their, yet we are powerless to change the hearts, and minds of others. The can only be done the Holy Spirit.
    16-17 It was from the 2 verses we are looking at that we find, not only has our heart been change, our minds as well. The harder one tries to be more like Yeshua, the more we are able to think like Him. The more we can see things as He does, the closer our walk with Him becomes. This also leads to our being able to see Him in every verse of the Word.
    18-21 We as true followers are give 2 great things. First we are made right with HaShem, through Yeshua. Simply by faith, as we can not hope to find any other way. Yet our walk must also be one of obedience. We can't say we believe and follow Yeshua, with out also doing what he asked. He paid for us with His own blood, when we turn our lives over to Him, it then becomes His life, not ours.
    Not sure why, something I learned came to mind. I may be better off not to post it, yet I never was one to what others seen as the best thing. If I am lead to say it I do.
    There are to mind sets in the world. The first and most common is the secular mind. It looks at it's self as being the center of it all. It wants what it wants, even if HaShem knows it is not the best thing for them. So they set in their mind, that HaShem should bend to their will, remove anything they don't like, so they can live the way they wish. In this mind set, a person seeks out ways to make the Bible say what they want. Like the one that teaches if you send them $100, you will get $1000 back. Or the ones that wish to place blame on HaShem when thing don't go their way.
    Then we have the Biblical mind. This one can only see one way. They must force them self to become more like Yeshua, at any cost. They seek out what the Word tells them, then go about making that a part of who they are. Once it is, they seek out more things that aren't what the Word tells us it should be. The more of the Word they fit into who they are, the happier they are, the happier they are, the more they wish to add.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor. 6

    1-2 I once read that this passage left a question on ones mind. That being if Paul was talking of him and Timothy were working as a team, or if their were working with HaShem? I find i sad that this would be a question in the minds of anyone. After all, by this point in reading the letters from Paul, it should be clear that he is working with HaShem. In all truth, when we follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, and do what is placed on our hearts, we are working for HaShem. Just as Yeshua did His Fathers work, once we give our lives over to Yeshua, we to should be about the work of HaShem.
    Also, as Paul points out, HaShem was there to help us at just the right time. He opened our hearts, and minds to His word. He stays true to every word He has ever spoken, and Has never changed in anything He has done, said, or promised. Though it is a given that every Word has been fulfilled, yet any true believer will tell you, it will be.
    3-10 One teacher once placed this before his class, then asked. "Have any of the troubles listed been placed at your feet?" The only 2 students that answer with no, were given an assignment. They were to go out and teach Torah in their church. The next week, he asked the same question, not one student could answer no.
    The idea of doing battle when teaching the word is an odd concept to some. Yet for others, it has became so real that they their understanding of the Armor of HaShem has taken on a new understanding. Though at times they may change their thinking of how to say what is on their minds, they are always read to face battle. As has been see on every thread I have opened, others work to stop what I have to say, and yes, it becomes a battle. Yet it doesn't change my thinking, just the way that it is presented. The truth is more often than not rejected, and Satan will fight it at every turn. Yet when we are doing HaShem's work, the His Spirit will always find a way. Love, finds it's way in the heart of even the most weary of soldiers, even when we only wish to cry from the things we see, joy fills our hearts.
    As one person once said, "When I look upon the world today, full of hate, war, and all forms of evil, I simply wish to die. Then I stop and pray, and find joy in it all, as it is what HaShem would come, this was repeated by Yeshua, and is a sign of His return."
    16-18 As if to show that the opening of this were true, Paul quotes, from Lev. 26:12. HaShem told Israel way back then that He would live in them, meaning that He would make His home in the hearts of any that would believe. Yet may say it is a new concept, and that the Spirit only came to live in the hearts of man, after Yeshua's sacrifice.
    True not all of this came from Torah, yet it all comes from the Tanakh, The part of the Word that is so full of love, forgiveness, and expectancy. That part many call OLD and dune away with. Yet in it are found the promises, that uphold ones faith today. Right down to the vary blood that has washed away the sins of true believers.
    MarcR likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  9. #389
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2Cor. 7
    1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    Though we today divide Paul's letters into chapters and verses, they were not written this way. As can be seen clearly here. The promises were given to us at the end of 6.


    2 Open your hearts to us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have cheated no one.
    3 I do not say this to condemn; for I have said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together.
    4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

    2 things are said of this passage.
    1 Paul shows a longing to be one with the church. Sharing in their troubles, as he would hope they too would share in his.
    2 The joy Paul is speaking of may be that of his meeting Titus. Who brought peace of mind.


    5 For indeed, when we came to Macedonia, our bodies had no rest, but we were troubled on every side. Outside were conflicts, inside were fears.
    6 Nevertheless God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus,
    7 and not only by his coming, but also by the consolation with which he was comforted in you, when he told us of your earnest desire, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced even more.

    It may that Paul seen the conflicts faced by the people of Corinth, as his own battle. This is backed in the way Paul speaks to them. His fears may have been his letters would drive them away, and that they would slowly turn back to their old ways. Once more this is backed in his own letters. HaShem showing His compassion and love brought Paul comfort by way of news that his letters had done what Paul had hoped.


    8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while.
    9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.
    10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
    11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
    12 Therefore, although I wrote to you, I did not do it for the sake of him who had done the wrong, nor for the sake of him who suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear to you.
    13 Therefore we have been comforted in your comfort. And we rejoiced exceedingly more for the joy of Titus, because his spirit has been refreshed by you all.

    As we have seen in Pauls first letter, it was taken lightly. He was sad to have to say the things he did, and regret filled his heart. There are 2 kinds of pain mentioned. 1) worldly sorrow, that lacks repentance leading to death. 2) Spiritual sorrow that leads away from sin and to salvation.


    14 For if in anything I have boasted to him about you, I am not ashamed. But as we spoke all things to you in truth, even so our boasting to Titus was found true.
    15 And his affections are greater for you as he remembers the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling you received him.
    16 Therefore I rejoice that I have confidence in you in everything.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 8
    1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia:
    2 that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality.
    3 For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing,
    4 imploring us with much urgency that we would receive the gift and the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
    5 And not only as we had hoped, but they first gave themselves to the Lord, and then to us by the will of God.

    Some have used this to make the claim that Paul was indeed underhanded in how he got others to do some things. They say Paul used shame to get the believers in Corinth to give more freely of their wealth. Their claim, (though it doesn't hold up) is that Paul uses the giving of a much poorer people to shame them.
    still when this is read in context with all of Paul's letters, it seems clear that Paul is simply wishing to bless any and all that freely give to help the poor in Jerusalem.


    6 So we urged Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also complete this grace in you as well.
    7 But as you abound in everything--in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us--see that you abound in this grace also.

    The act of giving freely is a blessing for the ones that receive the gift. Just as the ones giving are blessed in the giving. This is not my thinking, it is felt in the hearts, and minds of all that give to help others. It is found in both the Torah, and the NT that we are to help others worse off than we are. Truth is, Paul makes it clear in 7 that when HaShem has blessed any people with more than they need, they to should be generous in their giving. Keep in mind Luke 12:48 as you think on this.


    8 I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others.
    9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

    There 2 teachings on this. One that I made mention of in past post, goes something like this. HaShem doesn't want you to be poor on this earth. So send 100, and you will get 1000 back on that gift. As good as that sounds, it is a perversion of this passage.
    As the other tells us, Yeshua had the whole of creation as His own, when He was with the Father. He gave all that up, and became poor when He walked this earth. In doing so, He brought to man the riches of salvation, along with the richtes we will have in heaven. The more one shares the truth, the more they give of them selves to help others find salvation, the more they find the riches talked of in this passage.


    10 And in this I give advice: It is to your advantage not only to be doing what you began and were desiring to do a year ago;
    11 but now you also must complete the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to desire it, so there also may be a completion out of what you have.
    12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
    13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened;
    14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack--that there may be equality.

    Though one may set out with good intent, many times fear set in. If I give this money, will become a burden to me latter. Will something come up that brings a need for this money. This comes up as I am reminded of a good friend I once had. He lived from one pay check to the next. His heart was good, and in the right place. Only when it came to giving, he had a ligament worry. It was here that we turned to set his mind at ease. You see, he once gave to help the people that had been removed from their homes in Gaza. A noble act yes, yet he did so at the expense of his own bills. His bills got paid by someone no one will ever know, yet it also helped him to understand something. Paul tells us not to give when it may bring hardship on us. Rather in times when when a person has more than they need, they should give. Then when the other has more than they need, and you are in need, they in turn will also help you. Though we should keep in mind, that they may help us in ways that we didn't know we needed help.


    15 As it is written, "He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack."

    Though Paul uses Torah to back his teaching, and to help give some clarity, we should not look at this from the mind set that it holds nothing for us today. Rather we should see in it the willingness of HaShem to meet our needs day by day.


    16 But thanks be to God who puts the same earnest care for you into the heart of Titus.
    17 For he not only accepted the exhortation, but being more diligent, he went to you of his own accord.
    18 And we have sent with him the brother whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches,
    19 and not only that, but who was also chosen by the churches to travel with us with this gift, which is administered by us to the glory of the Lord Himself and to show your ready mind,
    20 avoiding this: that anyone should blame us in this lavish gift which is administered by us--
    21 providing honorable things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
    22 And we have sent with them our brother whom we have often proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, because of the great confidence which we have in you.
    23 If anyone inquires about Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker concerning you. Or if our brethren are inquired about, they are messengers of the churches, the glory of Christ.
    24 Therefore show to them, and before the churches the proof of your love and of our boasting on your behalf.

    Paul it seems knows well that giving to a charity comes with some chance. It just a little looking and you can find misconduct in many of the charities today. Misappropriation of funds, and excessive administrative cost just to name 2. In his hope of derailing accusations of this kind, he set men of high regard, by both him self and the church. Also, it may seem that we are simply being informed of the men Paul has sent, so that if anyone were to inquire about them, they would know were to look for answers. Yet this should also be seen as a warning to look into how anyone we wish to give to, treats the money they are given. One also seek to understand just how much of you give, gets to the need it claims to help. I know of many organizations, if for every dollar you send, on 9-10 cents is used to give the add you intend to help. I also know of some that for every dollar, 85-90 cents get to your indented purpose.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  11. #391
    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 9







    1 Now concerning the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you;
    2 for I know your willingness, about which I boast of you to the Macedonians, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal has stirred up the majority.
    3 Yet I have sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this respect, that, as I said, you may be ready;
    4 lest if some Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we (not to mention you!) should be ashamed of this confident boasting.

    Some have said that Paul was so worried that he may have built up Corinth to a point that they couldn't live up to what he had said of them. However, it may well be that Paul is hopes that they will do even better than he hoped, in this way they would give inspiration to others to do better.


    5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation.

    One commentator has this to say. (Keep in mind that we should never see this as anything we should expect from Paul.) Paul sent others before him, so that anyone that went with him wouldn't see the strong arm tactics he uses to make them give.
    As we should all know, this form of theft is still theft. No matter how one looks at it, giving must always be done from the heart, as is made clear in so much of the Word. It is more likely that Paul was hoping not to be held up by waiting for them to give.


    6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
    7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
    8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.

    As the above has shown, a person can use any passage in ways they were never intended. Here we see that Paul places that back into context, and lets it be knownjust how giving out of love and compassion turns HaShem's favor toward you.


    9 As it is written: "He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever."

    Please take time to read Psalm 112. Paul is once more quoting from the Tanakh, as is his custom. It was after all the only scripture he know, and as was shown at the start of this thread, the only one he had. This scripture he uses does show that HaShem cares for all of mankind, and rewords a giving heart.


    10 Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness,
    11 while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God.
    12 For the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints, but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God,
    13 while, through the proof of this ministry, they glorify God for the obedience of your confession to the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal sharing with them and all men,
    14 and by their prayer for you, who long for you because of the exceeding grace of God in you.
    15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

    How many times should HaShem hear thanks for a gift? A question that I am sure may leave some thinking it has an easy answer. When the gift is received they should give thanks, right? Should we that give not also give thanks? Some may think it an odd thing, "Give thanks for something we are giving away, and not getting?" Well in all truth, that which we give had to first be given. If HaShem had made a way for us to have it to give, then we wouldn't have it to give. So yes we should give thanks to HaShem for any gifts we give to others. Do you thank HaShem for the chance to give a dime when the person in front of you at the store is a little short? You should, after all HaShem made it possible for you do that. Oh sure others will look at you like lost your mind if you say it out load as you hand over that dime. Yet at the same time, that little witness you just offered, may to first time one of them seen HaShem at work, or seen joy and praise given to him for the chance to give. It may just change a persons life.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  12. #392
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 10
    1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ--who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you.
    2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
    3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
    4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
    5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
    6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

    Pauls use of military metaphors has been in 2 ways. The first is that Paul once served as an enforcer for the Sanhedrin. Giving him an understanding of both military action, and planing. Though his aggression had been lessened over time. As this teaching had no solid backing it should seen and understood for what it is. The teaching of a Marine.
    The second holds a firm background of Paul. Paul uses the military metaphors to aloud to the war being fought everyday. It is not a war of man, or fought with man made weapons. As one can clearly see in the context of the passage. We must however keep in mind that there are some that have a thought in their mind, and will never let it go. Even if that thought is just something they hoped was true, and is not.


    7 Do you look at things according to the outward appearance? If anyone is convinced in himself that he is Christ's, let him again consider this in himself, that just as he is Christ's, even so we are Christ's.

    Just a fun fact. This was used to show the difference between western thinking and Jewish thinking. You call your freind up and tell them you got a new coffee cup. Your western friend ask, what does it look like. Your Jewish friend, being happy for you, ask in an excited voice, What does it do? In the mind of many people this seems an odd thing to say at this point. Yet when you see it context as I did it can change the way you look at things. You see, we were talking about how the church is both confusing, and can be seen some as dishonest. Don't blow a crock yet. You see from the out side, with all the different theologies, and doctrines, coming from the same book, it seem that not everyone can be right. SO what this dear friend was doing, was helping me to understand something. The things one does, and teaches, may look one way, yet when you seek to understand what it does it can change. Just as the coffee cup may look good, if it doesn't do anything helpful, it is nothing more than a coffee cup. Now take my new coffee cup, it keeps my coffee hot for up to an hour, it has a lid that closes and even if it is up side down it won't spill even a drop. So to must our teaching be, as well as our faith.


    8 For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed--
    9 lest I seem to terrify you by letters.

    10 "For his letters," they say, "are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible."
    11 Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when we are absent, such we will also be in deed when we are present.

    In making the point that his authority comes from Yeshua, Paul may be hoping to show them just how Yeshua works in the hearts of man. For most people, it much easier to be bold and out spoken in a forum where you can't be seen. Yet face to face they seem weak and scared. Yet with the Spirit with in us, we are the same no matter if it in written form, or face to face. In today's world, (at lest in most parts of the USA, as I can't speak to how it is other places) a person may be willing to speak for Yeshua on the internet, yet face to face, they seem to hold back, or say nothing at all. The idea that man and his laws open the door to being sued scares them. Yet another is out spoken even when others tell him it is wrong, or you can't do that here.


    12 For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

    When a person sets them self, or their understanding up as the standard by which all must follow, they show just how foolish they can be. Yes most follow the things handed down by the church we go to. yet most never question any of it. They fail to study, and ask when something doesn't line up with the WHOLE of the Word. Thi8s becomes clear when they wish to challenge someone on Torah, and by their questioning, make it clear they hold little or no knowledge of it.


    13 We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us--a sphere which especially includes you.
    14 For we are not overextending ourselves (as though our authority did not extend to you), for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ;
    15 not boasting of things beyond measure, that is, in other men's labors, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you in our sphere,
    16 to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's sphere of accomplishment.
    17 But "he who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
    18 For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.

    Every person out their holds an understanding of most things in the Word. Some their understanding is in Torah more so that prophecy, others in Torah, and so on. If one tries working out side of their understanding, it can be seen clearly by any that have that understanding. For us to say that a person is wrong in what they follow, and how, is wrong in so many ways. HaShem will be the only one to say if a person was right or wrong. Paul also quotes Jer. 9:24 to some degree. When a person tells us they went to school, and got a PHD, or what ever, it speaks only to that person, and holds nothing for HaShem. Now if a person tells us that The Spirit showed them something new, that we should rejoice in. As it speaks to the power, kindness and Love of HaShem.
    MarcR likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  13. #393
    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2Cor chapter 11
    1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me.
    2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
    3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!

    The idea of being the bride of HaShem/Yeshua is not a new concept to the word as some teach. It is talked of in Isa. 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. As well as Isa 62:5 For as a young man marries a virgin, So shall your sons marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So shall your God rejoice over you.
    We have nothing to tell us what the false teachers in Corinth were teaching, though it seems clear they weren't teaching the same thing as Paul. There are however 2 thoughts on this. One is that they may have been teaching a different form of Yeshua. One that was powerful, and dominant, rather than being humble and long suffering. The other, (one I have seen up close) wishes to draw a person in with the idea that they understand the first century church, and how it worshiped. Then they slowly lead you into following Rabbinic law, and tradition. A practice that was rejected by Yeshua. As we see in His encounters with the religious leaders, He always turned to the truth of any given trap they wished to set with their questions.




    5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.

    6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things.

    It would seem that the false teachers may have claimed they were better than Paul. Yet Paul understood that he was in fact of equal, if not higher in understanding truth. Paul also alludes to his first letter to Corinth, 1 Cor 1:17 in fact. Where he speaks to the use of cleaver talk, that may lose it's true message.Though the lack of this form of wording is seen by many as being uneducated, we know that this would not fit with Paul at all.


    7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge?
    8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you.
    9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself.

    As we all know, Paul used his trade to support himself. Though it can be shown in the Torah that is would be exceptionable, and the Greek culture was expected. This idea may have been used to try and show Paul as a fraud. Paul uses the gifts of Macedonia to show this isn't true. However one may question his use of the word robbed. It should be clear that he had not robbed anyone, as one reads on. Yet for some reason Paul seems to think of his taking wages as theft. This may be due to the idea that a newly founded church may find itself in need of the founds, or that he simply wish to pay his own way in life.


    10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
    11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows!
    12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
    14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

    Paul's refusal of any form of payment most likely was to show the true nature of Yeshua. It also set him apart form other teachers, in a way that they simply couldn't afford to follow. He goes on to condemn the false teachers, using the analogy of Satan, and how he presents himself as a worker of truth, and righteousness. Fittingly so, after all, if one teaches with misdirection, and hidden lies, do they not do the work of Satan? We should always keep in mind, that many times we may hear just enough truth to make the lie seem true.


    16 I say again, let no one think me a fool. If otherwise, at least receive me as a fool, that I also may boast a little.
    17 What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were, foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
    18 Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast.
    19 For you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise!
    20 For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face.
    21 To our shame, I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold--I speak foolishly--I am bold also.

    I know of many teachings on this passage. Yet as always I will give the 2 that show the most contrast. In the first, it is said that Paul does nothing more than belittle the people for their willingness to accept teachers that openly exploited them, and lead them into sin, (or bondage). Using this same arrogates of theirs to show Paul as to week, or foolish. The other, we find Paul to be playing the part of a fool, down playing his own credentials, to point away from himself, and to HaShem. No matter what we think on this, one thing should be clear to us all. Paul adopted a style that matched their behavior in a way that dripped with irony.


    22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.

    It may have been that a Jewish heritage was seen by Paul's opponents as a qualification for ministry. Though it is thought by many that they themselves had no such heritage. The idea that Paul didn't bring up being a Pharisee, leave many to question why. It may be that Paul was still not wishing to shine a light on himself, or that his being aa devoted follower of Torah may have been seen in a bad light. No matter how one sees this, we all know that Paul was unashamed of this fact.


    23 Are they ministers of Christ?--I speak as a fool--I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.
    24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.
    25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
    26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
    27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness--
    28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.

    Paul doesn't say any of this to lift his credibility. Rather he is wishing to show his willingness to give his life for the truth. The idea that his Christ like suffering shows us how well he served should not be taken lightly.


    29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?
    30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.
    31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
    32 In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me;
    33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands.

    Though to some it is not clear that Paul is trying to show that in our weakness, HaShem is strongest. When we willingly admit our weakness to others, be in understanding or in faith, HaShem is more than happy to help us. Be it through teaching us a little more of His Word, or showing us a way out of danger that we didn't see.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  14. #394
    OtherWay210
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    To: : Rainrider

    This thread makes no sense. What if Paul had the NT ? Is this a serious question ?? The NT testament is made of mostly of Pauls letters because God used Him for that purpose . Paul had access to the apostles, and Christ Himself

    There is very little outside of the Bible about Paul. If God wanted more scripture in the cannon He would have made sure that it remained.

    Extra biblical sources are good for study, but not to be regarded as serious scripture.

    And when one says, only the OT ? I mean the OT is Gods words, its what Christ taught from, the prophecy contained there is is still yet future..
    Last edited by OtherWay210; December 15th, 2017 at 01:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by OtherWay210 View Post
    To: : Rainrider

    This thread makes no sense. What if Paul had the NT ? Is this a serious question ?? The NT testament is made of mostly of Pauls letters because God used Him for that purpose . Paul had access to the apostles, and Christ Himself

    There is very little outside of the Bible about Paul. If God wanted more scripture in the cannon He would have made sure that it remained.

    Extra biblical sources are good for study, but not to be regarded as serious scripture.

    And when one says, only the OT ? I mean the OT is Gods words, its what Christ taught from, the prophecy contained there is is still yet future..
    First I never said Paul had the NT nor have I asked what if he had it. So it seems you are addressing the wrong person. about that one.
    I don't know anyone that thinks of "extra Bible sources" as scripture in any way at all. Though they can at times fill in blanks that one may think are in the Bible. Then by the same token, The blanks one thinks they find in the Word, can also be filled by seeking the Word. However, if one does take time to study the life, and practices of the Jewish people today, they may well learn a lot about what it is they are reading. Just as learning a bit from historian Josephus may help one see some things a bit clearer.
    As for Paul, once one takes time to learn of a little about the history of his time, they can learn a lot from what Paul tells us of him self just in scripture. The key to all is learning, something that I do understand many will never try to do. They much happier to just to follow the tradition of their church. It isn't my job to change the hearts of man, nor to pass judgment on them. That is out of our hands, and is best left to the Holy Spirit to change their hearts, and Yeshua to judge.
    So once more you are aiming your post at the wrong person. I am more than happy to take the chastisement however, as it is my thread, and though I can't tell others what to say, or how to say it, I am still responsible for it being said in the first place.
    Though what you say about prophecy is partly true, there has been much of it fulfilled, and even more being fulfilled everyday. As we know from Mat. 5:17-18 the Word will not change in the smallest manner until the new heaven and earth come about. Though I must tell you, prophecy isn't not my strong points, I do study it in hopes of one day being able to call it to mind as well as I do Torah. Though it does seem that I may well run out of time soon. Not that I think I will pass on before hand, it just looks to me as though we are so close to the end of days, with everything that is going on in Israel, and around them, that we may be seeing that 7 year covenant before long.
    MarcR likes this.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Paul is The most important messenger for Jesus. Arguably the most important complete human to ever live. Most of what we know about how to live is from Paul. He clarified The message!
    FlSnookman7 likes this.

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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 12
    1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
    2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
    4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    There some translations that read I was, rather than I know a man. They use this, as they understand Paul to be talking of himself. Though some teachers aren't on bord with that understanding, it seems pointless to debate a thing like that. Rather as Paul points out, HaShem knows, and that is all that really matters. Just as some have had a dream at some point that seemed so real it was as if we had lived it, Paul also makes it clear he was unsure of how it came to be.


    5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.
    6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
    7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

    There are many reason for a person to point away from them self as having had been lifted to the third heaven. (Just so you know, in Jewish understanding the third heaven is being in the sight of HaShem.) As makes it clear that he doesn't wish to be seen as anything other that a simple man. In truth, I think some have lifted him way above this, as they teach Paul as having an understanding much higher than Paul shows in his own words.


    8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
    9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    This thorn that Paul wanted removed may have been most anything, that bothered him so badly he wished it removed. He does how ever make it clear that it kept him humble. It was for this reason that Paul, (as we all should), took pride in it being there. For it was this thorn weakened him, the true power of the Spirit was able to show through. The idea that HaShem, can change the way mind, eyes, ears, and other body parts work is something none of us can truly understand. We just know that he can. In that we should give thanks, and sing His praise to all. Take spell check, some of you may already know that I am dyslexic, My mind works great, my eyes however, change how things look. Turning words backward, and letters upside down, and so on. Yet with the help of HaShem, I can find the right word and how it should look with the click of my mice, most of the time. That great little red line shows me what words I have wrong. I am not going to say He created the PC, or the things that make it possible for me to write in a way that is understood, at lest most of the time, I do however give Him thanks for it. One day I may do a short post with out that great little tool, then I know full well, I will have you asking what is going on. LOL


    11 I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing.
    12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
    13 For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong!
    14 Now for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be burdensome to you; for I do not seek yours, but you. For the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
    15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved.

    Though at times it may seem that to boast of ones understanding, and self accomplishments, We should re-frame this, as it demises the glory of HaShem, and turns the light on to ones self. This is why Paul he said had became a fool for doing so. Just as Paul had worked many great things in their sight. As we see in his letters, his greatest work was in his patient dealing with them.
    Though Paul ask forgiveness for not taking their money, should be understood as ironic. The teaching to offers is real, and some what inherent in the minds of most. The one thing that I feel gets left out, (more often now than ever before) is passing what we understand, and showing how scripture should be used to interpret scripture. We should pass what we know to our kids, so that they will have a foundation to build on. We should however re-frame from passing on what we think. My reason for saying this is simple. The Word is called the living word for a reason. It meats us where we are, and leads us to where HaShem wants us to be. Should we pass on what we think, it can hinder another from further developmental. As they may find that they are faced with over coming what they think they know, before they can move o to what the Spirit may be trying to lead them to.


    16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you. Nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you by cunning!
    17 Did I take advantage of you by any of those whom I sent to you?
    18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
    19 Again, do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification.
    20 For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults;
    21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

    It seems that Paul thinks that when he returns to Corinth, he will face a renewed rebellion. Paul warns them that if is the case, they will not like his reaction. Though it isn't the first time he has given this warning,he felt a need to repeat it. His fears on this were not unfounded, as he has been told of their return to their old ways of lawlessness.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  18. #398
    Senior Member Rainrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    2 Cor 13

    1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."
    2 I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare--
    3 since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.
    4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

    5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.

    Many times we seek proof of others right to teach. We test them to no end if we don't like what they have to say, and at times some will go out of their way to have people removed from a forum like this one. Paul was like wise tested by the people of Corinth, and he answered by telling them they should test their own faith, and if they are truly walking in the right form of faith.


    6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
    7 Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.

    We should never use our own idea of right and wrong to disqualify another person. This seems to be what the people of Corinth had done with Paul. HaShem looks into the hearts of man, man looks to see if they teach something they like. If HaShem find evil intent in your heart, or finds that Yeshua has not approved you with His blood, then He will not approve you. If man doesn't like what you teach, or how you look, or the idea that you can't spell, use punctuation, or maybe your just to bold for them, then in their minds you can't be a true follower of HaShem. Ok so not everyone is like that, yet many are.


    8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
    9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. And this also we pray, that you may be made complete.
    10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.
    11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Become complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
    12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
    13 All the saints greet you.
    14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
    we were asked to pray for 2 thing in the Word, do we pray them?
    Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
    Mat.9:38
    Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

  19. #399
    Senior Member Dude653's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainrider View Post
    RED LETTERS, the highest authority in the Word. I always followed that my self. Though I have see on here that some with to say Paul holds just as much authority as the SON OF HASHEM. Never get me to go down that road folks.
    I'm inclined to agree. Paul only ever met Jesus briefly. He didn't hang out with Jesus everyday like the disciples did. Also when one of Paul's letters, I forgot which but anyway he states that he is just writing his own opinion
    tourist and Rainrider like this.
    We're all Negan

  20. #400
    Senior Member tourist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets talk about Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude653 View Post
    I'm inclined to agree. Paul only ever met Jesus briefly. He didn't hang out with Jesus everyday like the disciples did. Also when one of Paul's letters, I forgot which but anyway he states that he is just writing his own opinion
    I agree with what you have said about Paul. Some of what he writes is only his opinion and should be considered in the context that is provided as for spiritual guidance. Very interesting guy for sure.
    Rainrider likes this.
    M & M's melt in your mouth and not in your hands.

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