OT God different from Father in heaven?

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SCHISM

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2016
299
5
0
#1
Some teach that there are different gods being served and followed throughout the Bible, and it does make some sense.

For instance, if Jesus' Father in heaven is loving and merciful and forgiving, then who commanded the Israelites to kill women and children?

Perhaps a false-God gave the Law to the Israelites. Without the Law, they knew not sin, and Jesus died to save his people from sin.

You also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead. (Doesn't this imply that under the Law we belonged to another god?)

YHWH used many signs and wonders to bring the Israelites out of Egypt, and certainly exhaled himself above all that was worshipped, and sat in the temple they built for him, showing himself that he was God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#2
He used men to judge sinful men many times, he did t himself when he caused the flood to wipe out all mankind, but a few souls,

he is the same god, a god who showed great restraint, the OT is a vision of his grace, I think people. Miss that aspect, they just hear all the things they think are bad, and do not see what caused those things to happen,

 
May 11, 2014
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#3
This is gnosticism 101.

One of the earliest heresies tackled by the Church.

This is debunked directly in 1 John where he writes that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are antichrists, which is what the gnostics did, among other things.

Now lets play this theory out: If what you are saying is true, why did Jesus quote the old testament extensively? He even repeated the SHEMA which is a direct quote from Deuteronomy 6:4 (Look at Mark 12:29).
Why did the apostle Paul say he was the hebrew of the hebrews, why did Peter ask Jesus before He ascended "will you now restore the kingdom to Israel?"

So in summary, Peter, Paul, Jesus, John all quoted the old testament and were Jews, so they did not believe YHWH was a different God than Jesus' Father.
An easy way to refute this is when Jesus quotes:

Matthew 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
 

SCHISM

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2016
299
5
0
#4
This is gnosticism 101.

One of the earliest heresies tackled by the Church.

This is debunked directly in 1 John where he writes that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are antichrists, which is what the gnostics did, among other things.

Now lets play this theory out: If what you are saying is true, why did Jesus quote the old testament extensively? He even repeated the SHEMA which is a direct quote from Deuteronomy 6:4 (Look at Mark 12:29).
Why did the apostle Paul say he was the hebrew of the hebrews, why did Peter ask Jesus before He ascended "will you now restore the kingdom to Israel?"

So in summary, Peter, Paul, Jesus, John all quoted the old testament and were Jews, so they did not believe YHWH was a different God than Jesus' Father.
An easy way to refute this is when Jesus quotes:

Matthew 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
I believe Jesus came in the flesh.

They all quoted the Old Testament extensively because the people they meant to redeem belonged to YHWH?
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#5
Some teach that there are different gods being served and followed throughout the Bible, and it does make some sense.

For instance, if Jesus' Father in heaven is loving and merciful and forgiving, then who commanded the Israelites to kill women and children?

Perhaps a false-God gave the Law to the Israelites. Without the Law, they knew not sin, and Jesus died to save his people from sin.

You also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead. (Doesn't this imply that under the Law we belonged to another god?)

YHWH used many signs and wonders to bring the Israelites out of Egypt, and certainly exhaled himself above all that was worshipped, and sat in the temple they built for him, showing himself that he was God.
Many, if not all Canaanites were pagan worshippers of false gods to say the least. Also, confirmed by the Philistines, there were fallen angles continuing to take human form, before and after the flood, their offspring known as nephilim (giants, Goliath and family etc.). Canaan land had been completely taken over by Satan. It's like "legion" transferred into a herd of pigs, and then ran off the cliff to their death. The merciful Jesus Christ did that one, just like God commanding Israel to do with the Canaanites. It's a spiritual war today, in relation to a physical war then. Same thing, different wrinkle. (In general) Same God, different day.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#6
He used men to judge sinful men many times, he did t himself when he caused the flood to wipe out all mankind, but a few souls,

he is the same god, a god who showed great restraint, the OT is a vision of his grace, I think people. Miss that aspect, they just hear all the things they think are bad, and do not see what caused those things to happen,

Amen brother! Well described!
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#7
Some teach that there are different gods being served and followed throughout the Bible, and it does make some sense.

For instance, if Jesus' Father in heaven is loving and merciful and forgiving, then who commanded the Israelites to kill women and children?

Perhaps a false-God gave the Law to the Israelites. Without the Law, they knew not sin, and Jesus died to save his people from sin.

You also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead. (Doesn't this imply that under the Law we belonged to another god?)

YHWH used many signs and wonders to bring the Israelites out of Egypt, and certainly exhaled himself above all that was worshipped, and sat in the temple they built for him, showing himself that he was God.


People do not seem to understand that God is both the righteous,perfect judge and the God of love.He can be both at the same time.You cannot have a God that is all love and no justice.It does not make sense.The God of the OT is the same God in the NT. Jesus said "the Father and I are one" and that "He is in me". The problem is that people blame God for things that are not His fault.If we refuse to live according to His Word and we suffer the consequences the fault is ours,not Gods. There is One God who is the same God in both OT and NT.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#8
Here is where a discernment is required. So as to 1) realize, there is "many mansions" in the Father's House! 2) In, these "mansions" there are many "titles" the Father takes/makes for each one! ONE SPIRIT, mind ya. different, yet similiar manifestations, requiring different titles, or "offices" of this same Spirit of the Father!

Is the father who set the courses for the stars, or planets, who told the oceans they could go so far, and no farther, the same Father, who led the children of Israel out of slavery and bondage?...Why, YES!...He IS!...Just a different manifestation of His Spirit, which requires a different "handle", so to speak! From the Spirit of GOD, the creator, to the "Covenant" with Abram!..To the Government of this Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light! SAME SPIRIT!....Different manifestations!

The believeing in one's heart, that t'was the Spirit of GOD that raised Jesus from the dead, is not the same as "testing the spirits", that CONFESS Jesus Christ is come in flesh!
 
May 11, 2014
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#9
I believe Jesus came in the flesh.

They all quoted the Old Testament extensively because the people they meant to redeem belonged to YHWH?
How do you reconcile there being one God then? If there are two? This is not monotheism anymore.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,421
12,907
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#10
You say you believe in Jesus Christ, but this post is at odds with that belief.

Perhaps a false-God gave the Law to the Israelites. Without the Law, they knew not sin, and Jesus died to save his people from sin.
Why would you arrive at this conclusion, when it was Jesus Christ Himself who gave the Law to Israel?

You also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead. (Doesn't this imply that under the Law we belonged to another god?)
Not at all. The function of the Law was to expose the guilt of all humanity. To die to the Law means to recognize that Law-Keeping cannot save you. It is only the blood and righteousness of Christ which can save a sinner.

YHWH used many signs and wonders to bring the Israelites out of Egypt, and certainly exhaled himself above all that was worshipped, and sat in the temple they built for him, showing himself that he was God.
Now you are confusing the Antichrist with Almighty God. It is the Antichrist who will blaspheme the true God and claim that he is God, while sitting in the temple of God and desecrating it.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#11
I believe that God has not changed in His character but He has changed from throughout parts of the Old Testament in the way He deals with man.

Jesus said that no one knew His Father but He has come to reveal Him. Jesus revealed Him as Father to man-kind. This would have been a foreign concept to the Jewish mindset back then.

I believe what ever "perception" we have from the Old Testament view of God - if it doesn't line up with what Jesus revealed of the Father - then we are not interpreting that scripture through the "lens" of Jesus His Son who has come to reveal the Father to us.

If we want to see how the Father is towards sinners and towards the self-righteous - then look how Jesus interacted with them while on this earth.

If we want to see the will of the Father concerning healing - look to Jesus while He was here on this earth.

If we want to see how the Father views "chastising His children" - look to see how Jesus chastised His disciples while He was on this earth.

Jesus is perfect theology.

Jesus said that He did nothing from His own initiative but whatever He saw the Father doing - He did that. Jesus said that it was the Father in Him doing the works.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
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33
#12
They are one and the same. God is righteous and His decrees just. He judged then, now, and will in the future. Our hope? That we are in Christ, saved by grace through faith. Remember that it was the Father who sent the Son because He loved us. The God of the OT is the God of the new, and He has through Christ brought us reconciliation.
 
May 11, 2014
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#13


If we want to see how the Father views "chastising His children" - look to see how Jesus chastised His disciples while He was on this earth.
I wish someone would make a short list of verses of examples, I cannot think of any, this would be a great study.
I am lazy.
 
May 20, 2016
66
3
8
#14
Some teach that there are different gods being served and followed throughout the Bible, and it does make some sense.

For instance, if Jesus' Father in heaven is loving and merciful and forgiving, then who commanded the Israelites to kill women and children?

Perhaps a false-God gave the Law to the Israelites. Without the Law, they knew not sin, and Jesus died to save his people from sin.

You also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead. (Doesn't this imply that under the Law we belonged to another god?)

YHWH used many signs and wonders to bring the Israelites out of Egypt, and certainly exhaled himself above all that was worshipped, and sat in the temple they built for him, showing himself that he was God.
God is the alpha and omega means there is only one God as the creator of this universe.

Deut6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

Actually we should comprehend first , who are humans living in this planet in the eyes of God ?, are they commensurate with each other , or are they equal in the god’s eyes ?.

Why then there:

Rom9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
Why should God hate Esau and love Jacob , even though they were not yet born ?.

Rom9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


If there are two kinds of humans living in this planet in the eyes of God ( only God knows ), so it was plausible that God treated them with different manners .

Now the case is what is the difference?.

1 Born of God
= the chosen = there is spirit being within this physical creature /God put spirit being inside the body ( human’s spirit ) (Zec12:1 ,Isa 46:3 ) , this spirit being had already been with God before the creation of the world , and his or her name had also been written in the book of life , all those names will be sent one by one to sojourn/wander to this planet (2Cor5:4 , 1Pet1:17 ), known as the physically chosen people ( but definitive chosen people (Jews) just only for the stipulation , for the common embraces the new covenant after Jer31:29-33 ) = have spiritual ears ( Matt13:9 ,Rev3:6 ) .

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.


Isa46:3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb


2Cor5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life


1Pet1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Jer31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Mat13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Rev3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


2 Born of flesh = there is no spirit being within this physical creature / God didn’t put spirit being inside the body , dust (Gen3:14) like animal (not intend to be rude ) (Ecc3:19 ) , it is possible for them to be the camp of the devil for manifesting the devil’s deed, so in the last day the devils shall be judged /without them surely the devils will never be able to be judged (Rev20:12 ) = with no spiritual ears .

In OT especially before new covenant Jer31:29-33 , the devils had not been bound ,they surely abode to every born of flesh humans as their meals ( Gen3:14) ( for examples : victims in flood , Sodom and Gomorrah, Canaanites , Amalekites ), but in NT and for our sake the devils had already been bound and sealed in the bottomless pit( means not free to abide Luk11:24-26, only a few of born of flesh humans can be used for manifesting their deed / there are devils that transform to be the angels of light , there are antichrists, there are false teachers , there are false prophets ).

Gen3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: (dust=born of flesh)

Ecc3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity

Rev20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



Luk11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first




Rev20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season

Rev20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(in Noah flood catastrophe , Sodom and Gomorrah catastrophe , Canaanites, Amalekites that time were like this as well )
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Then if all of His people have already sojourned/wandered well , the devils surely will be loosed for awhile ( Rev20:3 ,Rev20:8-9 ).

If the born of flesh people that time were treated with love , so His people were threatened to be lost /failed , and we will never understand that the Salvation is by God’s Grace alone because there was no definitive chosen people , and for their own sake (born of flesh people) will never do some thing that gives opportunity to inherit the eternity (because the spirits inside them are the devils ,they themselves have no spirit beings ) .

Just for our sake then God should treat the born of flesh differently that time , but only valid that time.

Note: No one really knows who is born of God , who is born of flesh , only God knows.
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,834
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#15
God has always accepted those who turn to Him.

That He chose to call the children of Israel out and deal with them in covenant is His prerogative.

Does that mean God ignored the rest of the nations? No!

God always made provision for peoples of other nations to join themselves to the children of Israel. However, the people who converted had to enter into covenant, the same covenant as the children of Israel.


When the children of Israel left Egypt, it was a mixed multitude (Ex 12:38).

God instructed Moses concerning the stranger that sojourns with the children of Israel (Ex 20:10; Ex 23:9; Lev 17:8, 10, 12, 13, 15; Lev 19:34).

Again, it is God Who defines the relationship He will have with mankind, and anyone who wanted to have relationship with God was to join him/herself to the nation of Israel and enter into covenant with God.


Also, please note there are two gentile women named in the Christ-line ‒ Rahab of Jericho and Ruth of Moab (Matt 1:5). Both women were proselytes. They had joined themselves to the nation of Israel and entered into the same covenant with God that the children of Israel had.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
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#16
They are one and the same. God is righteous and His decrees just. He judged then, now, and will in the future. Our hope? That we are in Christ, saved by grace through faith. Remember that it was the Father who sent the Son because He loved us. The God of the OT is the God of the new, and He has through Christ brought us reconciliation.
Many say that the words spoken in the old testament are no the same as those spoken in the new testament. How can this be clarified if what you say is true?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#17
Job, who was probably contemporary with Abraham, wrote these words:

Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

If you think that some of God's actions in the OT were harsh; you should remember that Hell is harsher, and God doesn't want anyone to go there.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#18
Job, who was probably contemporary with Abraham, wrote these words:

Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

If you think that some of God's actions in the OT were harsh; you should remember that Hell is harsher, and God doesn't want anyone to go there.
Many of God's harsh judgement were actually merciful. Many of God's explanations of judgement for His own people end with the phrase, (paraphrase) "and by so doing, you shall put the evil away from you."
 
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