Apparent Dichotomy but in Truth FULL Agreement ! What is Janes Saying Here?

[MarcR]

Jas 2:15-26
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

What is James saying here?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

James wrote,show me your faith without your work and I will show you my faith by my work and a person cannot show their faith without using their body,so then that's what's meant by a man Is not justified by faith alone.

GOD does not need to see physical work for the person to be justified but man needs to see physical work before they are justified before men.

GOD looks at the heart,man looks at the outward appearance.

 

[MarcR]

In James 2:24, does justified mean the same thing as saved?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Matthew Henry has discussed this apparent "dichotomy" very well, and clears up the confusion that many assume regarding this statement of James "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

In this latter part of the chapter, the apostle shows the error of those who rested in a bare profession of the Christian faith, as if that would save them, while the temper of their minds and the tenor of their lives were altogether disagreeable to that holy religion which they professed. To let them see, therefore, what a wretched foundation they built their hopes upon, it is here proved at large that a man is justified, not by faith only, but by works.

Now,I. Upon this arises a very great question, namely, how to reconcile Paul and James. Paul, in his epistles to the Romans and Galatians, seems to assert the directly contrary thing to what James here lays down, saying if often, and with a great deal of emphasis, that we are justified by faith only and not by the works of the law.
...it may be sufficient only to observe these few things following:—

1. When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law(Rom. 3:28 ), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men’s embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom. 10, , at the beginning most expressly declares); but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel, and as the proper and necessary effects and fruits of sound believing in Christ Jesus. Both are concerned to magnify the faith of the gospel, as that which alone could save us and justify us; but Paul magnifies it by showing the insufficiency of any works of the law before faith, or in opposition to the doctrine of justification by Jesus Christ; James magnifies the same faith, by showing what are the genuine and necessary products and operations of it.

2. Paul not only speaks of different works from those insisted on by James, but he speaks of a quite different use that was made of good works from what is here urged and intended. Paul had to do with those who depended on the merit of their works in the sight of God, and thus he might well make them of no manner of account. James had to do with those who cried up faith, but would not allow works to be used even as evidence; they depended upon a bare profession, as sufficient to justify them; and with these he might well urge the necessity and vast importance of good works...

3. The justification of which Paul speaks is different from that spoken of by James; the one speaks of our persons being justified before God, the other speaks of our faith being justified before men: "Show me thy faith by thy works,’’ says James, "let thy faith be justified in the eyes of those that behold thee by thy works;’’ but Paul speaks of justification in the sight of God, who justifies those only that believe in Jesus, and purely on account of the redemption that is in him. Thus we see that our persons are justified before God by faith, but our faith is justified before men by works. This is so plainly the scope and design of the apostle James that he is but confirming what Paul, in other places, says of his faith, that it is a laborious faith, and a faith working by love...

 

[seed_time_harvest]

In James 2:24, does justified mean the same thing as saved?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

No,James Is talking about faith In action shown by a man to another man.

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi Marc,

I believe that Paul and James are speaking of the same faith.

It's the works that's different.

Paul talks of the works of the Law.

James speaks of the works of Faith.

 

[loveme1]

In James 2:24, does justified mean the same thing as saved?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Keep in mind the Great and second like it Commandment..

If someone is hungry and naked am I Keeping the Commandment? Is it love if I'm not moved to feed and clothe if I can? Can I say I love GOD if I love not my neighbour?.. I do the things He taught to call Him Lord.

We are saved by Grace through Faith unto good works.

So GOD grafts the Believing branch in to draw nourishment from the True vine. But there is a warning to continue in His goodness or be cut off.. we stand by Faith but that Faith is perfected by doing the works of the Lord.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here is what Jesus says is the work of the Father.

John 6:28-29 “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

I think Peter brings the meaning of James and Paul together.

II Peter 2:3-11 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder,14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me.15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things."


"

 

[J7]

James implies that we are saved by faith and actions

Jas 2:14

¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Paul states that we are saved by grace and not actions

Ephesians 2:5
by grace ye are saved

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Hi Marc,

I believe that Paul and James are speaking of the same faith.

It's the works that's different.

Paul talks of the works of the Law.

James speaks of the works of Faith.

What would your answer be to post#3?

 

[J7]

Paul is saying that God saves us, we do not save ourselves.

James is saying that if our behaviour is not consistent with our beliefs, then we might not be saved, which Jesus also said.

Whichever way you cut it, salvation is a 2 way stretch; it requires something from us

 

[J7]

Hebrews 11. Paul sees faith and actions as indivisible.

He is talking at a pure level, of how things should rightly be. James is talking at a pragmatic level, of how corrupted things are.

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Keep in mind the Great and second like it Commandment..

If someone is hungry and naked am I Keeping the Commandment? Is it love if I'm not moved to feed and clothe if I can? Can I say I love GOD if I love not my neighbour?.. I do the things He taught to call Him Lord.

We are saved by Grace through Faith unto good works.

So GOD grafts the Believing branch in to draw nourishment from the True vine. But there is a warning to continue in His goodness or be cut off.. we stand by Faith but that Faith is perfected by doing the works of the Lord.

But do you believe a person Is saved by faith alone and do you believe a person has to do good works to stay saved?

 

[MarcR]

James implies that we are saved by faith and actions

Jas 2:14

¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Paul states that we are saved by grace and not actions

Ephesians 2:5
by grace ye are saved

That would be a dichotomy. The word translated justified is the Greek dikaioutai which speaks of rendering or demonstration of righteousness not of acquisition.

 

[loveme1]

But do you believe a person Is saved by faith alone and do you believe a person has to do good works to stay saved?

I believe a saved person believes and does good because their Lord saved them and in their newness they strive to love and obey Him.

As in walking in the spirit He gives us through believing.

There is no work that saves a person.. no it is what a person does through their Faith in the Lord.

So if the Lord teaches us to obey Him we believe and the do follows..

We are to continue in His Word and if not we do not love Him.. that I believe because the Messiah said so.

 

[loveme1]

It is the Faith of Abraham.. both Paul and James teach us this but what confuses people is that when Paul teaches against circumcision of the flesh not justifying anyone and that it was a seal of the Law of Faith that was to come through the law of works.. the Promise was to all who believe and the law of works does not justify.

 

[MarcR]

What would your answer be to post#3?

See post 14

 

[J7]

That would be a dichotomy. The word translated justified is the Greek dikaioutai which speaks of rendering or demonstration of righteousness not of acquisition.

There is a division between faith as belief, and faith as action. It is a two part process.

I believe that the earth is round, and therefore I attempt to fly or sail round it.

Our behaviour is conditioned by our beliefs.

If I give alms to the poor because I want to get on primetime TV and become a star, my beliefs are rubbish, even though my actions appear benevolent.
If I believe in Jesus, but hoard my millions ....My beliefs are correct, but my actions stink.
If I believe in Jesus and therefore give alms to the poor, then the belief set and actions are both good.

That is somewhat simplistic.

The point about Faith is that Faith is a two part process; we believe certain things, and then behave a certain way that reflects those beliefs. When we believe in Jesus, we then are batized in the Holy Spirit, and then we behave a certain way. Our actions (works) are guided by Jesus.

James says that if someone professes Christ, but no fruit, works, appear, then it is a false profession.

Paul says that Faith is both unitary, but also bipartite. It is unitary insofar as Faith and Works are all part of the same deal, bipartite insofar as we can break faith down into belief and consequent action. He breaks it down because the body must follow the mind. But this is illustrative. It is to show we need to get our heads straight first with God. We need to totally believe God.
However, in practice Paul sees Faith the same as James. Faith needs to be accompanied by action.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

It is the Faith of Abraham.. both Paul and James teach us this but what confuses people is that when Paul teaches against circumcision of the flesh not justifying anyone and that it was a seal of the Law of Faith that was to come through the law of works.. the Promise was to all who believe and the law of works does not justify.

You call works a law ,I think you mean works do not Justify a person to GOD and I agree.

 

[loveme1]

You call works a law ,I think you mean works do not Justify a person to GOD and I agree.

Romans 3

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it isone God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


what deeds of the law is a man not justified by?

what law ? Works or Faith....

To me that represents the Old and New Covenant.

Romans 3

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which isby faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.