Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

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Depleted

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that is actually a Calvinist position

some of us are gobsmacked that you actually do believe it
Considering the amount that didn't know even that, and considering you probably don't understand imputed either, what's gobsmacking to me is the amount of ignorance within that Christian church. (You know. Since you're going on an on about clicks yet are very much defining yours while putting down all others.)
 
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Depleted

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Amen...The Word of God speaks for its self...WE Don't need Calvin or any other man reforming it for us :) Just saying....:)
Right, you have your own that you already believed. Who needs to even know who Calvin was or what he believed, right?
 
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Depleted

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so you equate Calvin with God?

go ahead. after all, you are only a stuffed teddy bear ;)
So, what you really did was leave for a while, build up quite a bit resentment, and came back with a wrath?

Not exactly what works when people leave for a while.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Right, you have your own that you already believed. Who needs to even know who Calvin was or what he believed, right?
Not interested…Thanks though….I’ve been down this road before ... went rounds with you on this to no avail. It only turned to name calling and ungodliness…So if it’s all the same to you…I’ll just leave Calvin dead and buried… Not interested in digging him up to learn one thing about or from him….

No hard feelings...Just saying, I’d rather agree to disagree with you here:)
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Considering the amount that didn't know even that, and considering you probably don't understand imputed either, what's gobsmacking to me is the amount of ignorance within that Christian church. (You know. Since you're going on an on about clicks yet are very much defining yours while putting down all others.)
LOL!

pot calling kettle black
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
So, what you really did was leave for a while, build up quite a bit resentment, and came back with a wrath?

Not exactly what works when people leave for a while.
or a person can stay and build it up

seems you have done both

honestly Lynn ... you dish it out but do not seem able to take it
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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You've got it right there, you can't go wrong sticking to what the Lord is teaching you....Look straight to the Lord and let him teach you. We don't put our faith and confidence in men because they can make mistakes and fail, but the Lord never fails...The Lord taught me, when I got saved, not to look to the left or the right, but to look straight ahead and he would teach me...

Not saying that we can't learn from others...just saying, we put all of our confidence in the Lord, study his word, and listen directly to him...and he will not let us be misled...:)
Amen 1ofthem...I must admit I have to be very careful now in what I post...A few times I have posted what I believed the Holy Spirit has shown me only for someone to come along and rip it apart and tell me that what I have posted is wrong...I want to post what I have learnt, and I really do appreciate guidance to correct me if need be, only few will correct in a gentle manner, that`s what makes all the difference to me, someone who is loving in their ways with a gentle spirit, not a harsh cold reply which can often lead to babes or imature in the Lord to never post again:(, thank you for your reply, the Holy Spirit will always give me eyes to see and ears to hear...xox...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amen 1ofthem...I must admit I have to be very careful now in what I post...A few times I have posted what I believed the Holy Spirit has shown me only for someone to come along and rip it apart and tell me that what I have posted is wrong...I want to post what I have learnt, and I really do appreciate guidance to correct me if need be, only few will correct in a gentle manner, that`s what makes all the difference to me, someone who is loving in their ways with a gentle spirit, not a harsh cold reply which can often lead to babes or imature in the Lord to never post again:(, thank you for your reply, the Holy Spirit will always give me eyes to see and ears to hear...xox...
Amen sis, people want us t follow men, like Calvin or Armenian or Luther or whoever, it is best to follow the word, to many want to blindly follow men, and sadly in doing this s we have risk of filling the good with the bad,

it is better to study. Maybe take guidance, but never trust anyone.
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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I'm gonna let Forrest, Forrest Gump settle this - "I think maybe it's both"...
 

1ofthem

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Amen 1ofthem...I must admit I have to be very careful now in what I post...A few times I have posted what I believed the Holy Spirit has shown me only for someone to come along and rip it apart and tell me that what I have posted is wrong...I want to post what I have learnt, and I really do appreciate guidance to correct me if need be, only few will correct in a gentle manner, that`s what makes all the difference to me, someone who is loving in their ways with a gentle spirit, not a harsh cold reply which can often lead to babes or imature in the Lord to never post again:(, thank you for your reply, the Holy Spirit will always give me eyes to see and ears to hear...xox...
Amen sister...I've done the same thing myself before...The Lord has used others on here to show me things, but I was able to have discussions with them rather than them just ripping me apart...

It's kinda hard for me to even try and see another's point when they are calling me names and the like...God's doesn't use me or anyone else to do things like that.

But I won't lie I've got mad and showed myself on here before and had to apologize because I know it wasn't God leading me to do such things.

Anyhow, God Bless you sister...I really love your attitude and your posts...I can see the love of God in you:)
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Amen sister...I've done the same thing myself before...The Lord has used others on here to show me things, but I was able to have discussions with them rather than them just ripping me apart...

It's kinda hard for me to even try and see another's point when they are calling me names and the like...God's doesn't use me or anyone else to do things like that.

But I won't lie I've got mad and showed myself on here before and had to apologize because I know it wasn't God leading me to do such things.

Anyhow, God Bless you sister...I really love your attitude and your posts...I can see the love of God in you:)
it's a handful on here who call names but you can count on them to call names

I don't how they get away with it

some I know it is useless to even report

on the other hand, if someone calling themself a believer cannot restrain their post, without calling people stupid, delusional, non-believer etc etc, I think they demonstrate they need to work on themselves long before showing the rest of us how out of control they are

there are truthfully a few things that will really get me irritated...such as saying what Jesus taught is law and not really for us today or similar or saying the Holy Spirit has gone on vacation or a certain denom is the only right one...that type of thing does get me ticked

but that is the nature of the place

however there are several that swag through the forums, displaying arrogance that makes you wince when you read it
 
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Amen 1ofthem...I must admit I have to be very careful now in what I post...A few times I have posted what I believed the Holy Spirit has shown me only for someone to come along and rip it apart and tell me that what I have posted is wrong...I want to post what I have learnt, and I really do appreciate guidance to correct me if need be, only few will correct in a gentle manner, that`s what makes all the difference to me, someone who is loving in their ways with a gentle spirit, not a harsh cold reply which can often lead to babes or imature in the Lord to never post again:(, thank you for your reply, the Holy Spirit will always give me eyes to see and ears to hear...xox...
The one major lesson cc has taught me is to ignore those with the wrong spirit.
What closes us down is what you just described. "I have to be careful" No you do not.
Just share and let your heart shine. It is this closing down which bring darkness.

So many people say the Lords love in my heart is so personal and deep, I cannot let others
see it. But the truth is, I am so insecure I dare not share how I really feel in case I am wrong
and have to change. Now that is the tough part. Taking the risk and being open.

And closed people hate those who can be open, because they long for this reality but just
oppose it at every turn because it reminds them of something they cannot do.

So please share away, and be the light God calls you to be, Amen, and Praise the Lord,
because each step we get closer to the King.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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it's a handful on here who call names but you can count on them to call names

I don't how they get away with it

some I know it is useless to even report

on the other hand, if someone calling themself a believer cannot restrain their post, without calling people stupid, delusional, non-believer etc etc, I think they demonstrate they need to work on themselves long before showing the rest of us how out of control they are

there are truthfully a few things that will really get me irritated...such as saying what Jesus taught is law and not really for us today or similar or saying the Holy Spirit has gone on vacation or a certain denom is the only right one...that type of thing does get me ticked

but that is the nature of the place

however there are several that swag through the forums, displaying arrogance that makes you wince when you read it
Yeah, it's the arrogant ones that get me ticked. If you don't totally agree with everything some on here say you get called names and belittled, but when you say something back then they say you are the attacker...I've decided to try and not let it bother me...It is what it is...So I'm just trying to compose myself and say what I feel led to say and leave it at that:)

Anyhow, thanks and God Bless You!
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Yeah, it's the arrogant ones that get me ticked. If you don't totally agree with everything some on here say you get called names and belittled, but when you say something back then they say you are the attacker...I've decided to try and not let it bother me...It is what it is...So I'm just trying to compose myself and say what I feel led to say and leave it at that:)

Anyhow, thanks and God Bless You!
The sad thing that has shown itself over the years of being here, is those who oppose
the simple works of Christ, all have had serious personality flaws and emotionally troubled,
unhealed issues in their hearts.

Once you touch on anything close to this they go into total denial and defence, and claim
sharing from the heart is not part of who we are in Christ.

But if you want the most difficult idiology and vulnerability position to take, follow Jesus.
It is all about being honest and open.

Just listen to Jesus. As I have loved you, so you should love one another.
I have shared everything with you.

Carry the cross daily. Think more highly of others than you do yourself.
Walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Please tell me where there is a place to hide within this creed?
But I suspect a lot have never read the label on the tin, and just listen to what
is culturally acceptable. But that is not making Jesus ones Lord or seeing what He meant.
And yes it is hard, because it is not of this world, but of the Kingdom of heaven.
 

Angela53510

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I just looked at four commentaries: Adam Clarke, Barnes Notes, Jamieson Faucet & Brown, and Charles Ellicott.
All four treat the genitive case Jesus' faith as if it were accusative Faith in Jesus. Angela, please tell us whether the genative case really works that way. I'm sure there are others on the forum qualified to answer; but I don't know who they are & I'm confident that you will answer correctly.
διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ Rms 3:22a prepositional phrase

First. are you saying these commentators are somehow using διὰ as "on account of" making it the actual accusative case? I would find that very hard to understand, as clearly since all the rest of the words in this prepositional phrase πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, faith/belief/faithfulness are clearly in the genitive.

Or, are they debating the use of the objective and the subjective genitive? I have 5 commentaries open on Romans, and the majority seem to prefer the objective genitive, with all presenting the "alternative" as the subjective genitive. Which is to say, is Jesus the subject of the faith, in this phrase, or the object (perhaps this is where the confusing use of the accusative might come in)?

I also looked up quite a few translations, and most favour the use of the objective genitive, although the NET Bible, definitely translates it as the subjunctive. So, does theology dictate translation, or does translation dictate theology? I think the former, because this issue is simply not clear cut.

I looked through 5 commentaries, including the New International Greek Testament Commentary (Longenecker The Epistle to the Romans) and this is a very difficult issue. I also looked at various translations, most coming down on the traditional side of this phrase being the objective genitive, although the NET Bible, a translation I have been reading recently, translates as the subjective genitive, meaning that Jesus is the subject of the noun πίστεως or faith/belief/faithfulness.

So, in brief, this is the discussion. Is the genitive subjective or objective?

Objective - “through faith in Jesus Christ “ ESV
Subjective - “God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ “ NET

So, what are the arguments on both sides? And is there a third option? We talked about this issue a lot in Greek. Because sometimes it is obvious that it is the subjective or the objective genitive, and in other cases, both. But, in this case, not so much! And as one commentary says, perhaps it was not even an issue to the NT Greeks, but we moderns have made it into an issue. But, since this concerns the topic of this thread, let’s look closer!

“The righteousness of God comes through faith IN Jesus Christ.” Of course, the word “in” is not there in the Greek, although Alexandrinus (A 02) does add the ἐν “en” – but it changes the word order, and the case, pointing to a deliberative change, to forestall any subjective genitive interpretation. However, one could use “of,” as it is a genitive, meaning “The righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ.” Or “is by faith of Jesus Christ” like the KJV.

But, it could also be subjective, referring to the faith Jesus exercised, in other words, “Christ’s faith as opposed to man’s faith in him.” The word “faith” could then be taken in the sense of “faithfulness.” This could mean “God’s faithfulness in Christ Jesus” or “the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.” A reference to the “faithfulness of Christ” is supported by the fact that “all who believe” is redundant if we translate “faith in Jesus Christ” in the immediate section preceding.

So, should we see a reference to Christ’s faithfulness or to his faith, or to our faith, repeated twice in a row?

On the other hand, πίστις, pistis, for Paul, almost always means “faith” and other strong contextual features must be present if any other meaning is to be adopted.

One commentator, (D. Moo in New International Commentary on the New Testament – The Epistle to the Romans), comments that “it is necessary to introduce some dubious theology in order to speak of “the faith exercised by Jesus Christ.” Well, I guess that no one is saying that. It is either the “faithfulness of Christ,” or our “faith in/of Jesus Christ.”

It is also instructive that Longenecker notes the section Romans 3:24-26 has 15 “Prominent Exegetical Difficulties,” with #5 being this prepositional phrase. Although, it seems upon reading this, that he believes that to use the objective genitive is to set up a redundancy with the following phrase, and opts for the subjective genitive “through the faith/faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all who believe.”

There is a third option, is cited by Turner in a footnote in Morris’s Pillar New Testament Commentary on Romans.

“God’s act of redemption is seen to be motivated not only by the willingness and faithfulness of Christ by offering himself on behalf of all those who believe in him, but is seen also in the response of men, “who put their faith in Christ.” Of the controversial phrase “the faith of Jesus Christ,” he says, it is “difficult to comprehend it within the limits of either the subjective or the objective genitive exclusively.” He suggests that it may share in the qualities of both. However, another part of the footnote rejects it is both, Kasemann, arguing that this view is correct only in “that for Paul the Giver always comes on scene with the gift.”

Finally, Morris notes, “We should bear in mind that Paul is not describing Christ, but outlining what Christ has done in bringing about salvation, so that we must understand, that at least in part of the meaning, the objective genitive. Faith in Jesus Christ is certainly in mind.” But there would be no place for the exercise of this faith were it not for the “faithfulness of Jesus Christ” and for “God’s faithfulness show in Jesus Christ.” The right standing God gives is connected with the faith of believers in Christ.

What is my personal opinion on this phrase? Well, I am certain that God has to give us the faith to believe first! It is a gift from God! It is totally from and of Christ. So, I would favour the subjective genitive, in which I can rely on Christ’s faithfulness, to hold on to me for the rest of my life. As Paul goes on to say in Romans 5:1, “We are justified through faith.” If that faith comes from God, then is not Jesus Christ the subject first and foremost of any discussion of justification and faith? We do not save ourselves, through “our” faith. That stinks too much of having faith in our own faith. I would far rather err on the subjective side, avoid the redundancy, and declare that:

“the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe.” Romans 3:22a NET
 

Locutus

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If yer stop treating the hubby like a taxi driver maybe he'll step up with some...:p
 

Angela53510

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Just read through the thread, after answering Marc's query!

No wonder I turned Reformed! The alternative, at least as presented here by many, makes no sense, and is totally human centred, instead of God centred!

As far as Calvin, never read him, never met him, although I do have a copy in English of his Institutes on my Kindle which I got for free, which I have not read. I'm thinking I will read the French version instead, for a little challenge and review. Some day!

In the meantime, I just keep reading my Bible and studying it faithfully. I pray and seek God daily. And over and over, the sovereignty of God is vital.

Then, there is the cross, so rejected by some calling themselves saved on this thread! The cross, as it represents not just the death of Jesus, but our sin, is essential!

"And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions. 14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross." Col. 2:13-15 NET

Notice how IT - our sin - our debt - is nailed to the cross? Hmm, some people are short on knowing and understanding redemption in this forum, it sure seems to me!