The Temple Of God

J7 · Sep 11, 2017

Nothing arbitrary or magical. It is how God explains time.

Matt 24 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Likewise Peter introduced the Church Age as the last days, and in his letters he explained that a day is like a thousand years.

Its just the way it is

posthuman said:

J7 · Sep 11, 2017

Regarding the watches I take it all back. The 3 Hebrew watches (3000 years) makes perfect sense.

Luke 12:38

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

posthuman · Sep 11, 2017

you haven't addressed what makes it "not arbitrary" of you to exchange what is very clearly explained as a a reference to the 3 days between Christ's death and resurrection for a period of 3,000 years.

if that's kosher, i see no reason why it shouldn't be equally kosher to replace the mandate to be circumcised on the 8th day with an 8,000 year period.

thoughts?
can you explain why one re-writing of scripture to fit private interpretation is not arbitrary and one is?

J7 said:

previously discussed; you're simply wrong to treat this like an equation
24h = 1,000yr = 4hrs = 3hrs

why don't you explain why you reject half of Psalm 90:4 again please? that was never made clear.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 11, 2017

IamWhoIam said:

How many times do we have to correct this misconception and this disinformation?

1. The Pretribulation Rapture is NOT a theory, because no revelation of the Holy Spirit is a mere "theory". It is a spiritual fact.

2. The Pretribulation Rapture did not suddenly pop up out of the blue in the 18th or 19th century, since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself -- the One who will come for His saints -- taught It before His crucifixion. So it goes all the way back to c AD 30.

3. The Rapture (or more correctly) the Resurrection/Rapture of th Church has always been presented in Scripture as something that is IMMINENT. This means it could happen (a) at any time, (c) suddenly with no warning, and (c) with no announcement to the world but a summoning of the saints to glory.

4. Christ emphatically dissociated the Rapture from trouble and tribulation, while telling us that that He could come to take us to Heaven (John 14:1-3).

NO TRIBULATION
Let not your heart be troubled

FAITH A PREREQUISITE
ye believe in God, believe also in me

HEAVEN IS OUR DESTINATION
In my Father's house are many mansions

ONLY CHRIST KNOWS THE TRUTH
if it were not so, I would have told you

CHRIST IN HEAVEN IS PREPARING FOR THE RAPTURE
I go to prepare a place for you

CHRIST MUST COME AGAIN FOR HIS OWN AT ANY TIME
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again

CHRIST TO RECEIVE US UNTO HIMSELF
and receive you unto myself

HEAVEN (THE NEW JERUSALEM) TO BE OUR ETERNAL HOME
that where I am, there ye may be also.

So those who reject, debunk, mock, and dismiss the Pretribulation Rapture are saying that they do not really believe what Christ says. That is called UNBELIEF.

IamWhoIam · Sep 11, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

How many times do we have to correct this misconception and this disinformation?

1. The Pretribulation Rapture is NOT a theory, because no revelation of the Holy Spirit is a mere "theory". It is a spiritual fact.

2. The Pretribulation Rapture did not suddenly pop up out of the blue in the 18th or 19th century, since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself -- the One who who come for His saints -- taught that before His crucifixion. So it goes all the way back to c AD 30.

3. The Rapture (or more correctly) the Resurrection/Rapture of th Church has always been presented in Scripture as something that is IMMINENT. This means it could happen (a) at any time, (c) suddenly with no warning, and (c) with no announcement to the world but a summoning of the saints to glory.

4. Christ emphatically dissociated the Rapture from trouble and tribulation, while telling us that that He could come to take us to Heaven (John 14:1-3).

NO TRIBULATION
Let not your heart be troubled

FAITH A PREREQUISITE
ye believe in God, believe also in me

HEAVEN OUR DESTINATION
In my Father's house are many mansions

ONLY CHRIST KNOWS THE TRUTH
if it were not so, I would have told you

CHRIST IN HEAVEN PREPARING FOR THE RAPTURE
I go to prepare a place for you

CHRIST MUST COME AGAIN FOR HIS OWN
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again

CHRIST TO RECEIVE US UNTO HIMSELF
1and receive you unto myself

HEAVEN (THE NEW JERUSALEM) OUR ETERNAL HOME
that where I am, there ye may be also.
2So those who reject, debunk, mock, and dismiss the Pretribulation Rapture are saying that they do not really believe what Christ says. That is called UNBELIEF.
3

Sorry buddy but I disagree with you on the Pre tribulation rapture of John Darby and gang.

John 14:1-3 isn't talking about a pre tribulation rapture, IMO. though you are certainly allowed to have your faith and theory of your choice, but that it's not my choice.

posthuman · Sep 11, 2017

J7 said:

oh so now 4 hours = 1,000 years "prophetically" ?

so according to Mark 15:33 at the crucifixion, the land became dark for 750 years?

when the seventh seal is opened ((Revelation 8:1)) there is silence in heaven for 125 years?

the two witnesses corpses going to lie in the street ((Revelation 11:7-8)) for 21,000 years?

you got any kinda system for when you start replacing what the Bible says with what you think it ought to mean? can you always do this or is it just arbitrary? how do i know when to reinterpret it and when to leave it alone and let it say what it says?

gettin' kinda lost here.

posthuman · Sep 11, 2017

see where post is heading with all this?
you're not giving any basis of interpretation other than wanting it to say something other than it does, therefore arbitrarily transforming only the parts you want to transform.

IamWhoIam · Sep 11, 2017

[h=4]THE TEMPLE WILL BE TORN DOWN TO THE GROUND AND DESTROYED. AND THEN REBUILT AGAIN.[/h]“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Matthew 24:3 (KJV)
In the 24th chapter of Matthew, the apostles come together to ask Jesus about His return, which we know to be the Day of the Lord, and the end of the world. Jesus, as it turns out, has plenty to say on this subject and uses no parables. He tells them plainly what will happen in the time of the end. Many Christians, who love to apply the entire New Testament to the Church alone, read this chapter and try to make this about the Rapture of the Church. But that will not work, Matthew 24 is not about the Church which didn’t even exist on the day that they asked Jesus these questions.
Matthew 23 ends with Jesus talking about His Second Coming, and Matthew 24 continues this exact same theme so we have harmony with the context. In our earlier article on the Rapture of the Church, we explained the difference between the Rapture and the Revelation. If you have not yet read that article, please do so before proceeding with this teaching on Matthew 24.
“For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Matthew 23:39 (KJV)
Jesus has something very important for the apostles to understand, and He begins to speak prophetically. He is giving a prophecy, not of the time in which they were living (though you can draw some parallels), but of a time far into the future. The time of Jacob’s Trouble that Jeremiah spoke about:
“Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.” Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)
Jacob’s name was changed to Israel, as in the nation of Israel. Jacob’s trouble has no application to the Church which would be formed later in Acts 2. Jacob’s trouble is about the Jewish people and the nation of Israel as they go through the time that Jesus Himself refers to as “great tribulation” that would have no equal in human history. Worse than the Russian pogroms, worse than the slaughter in South Africa, even worse than Hitler’s Holocaust in Nazi Germany. So with that, let’s look at our top reasons why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Rapture of the Church.
[h=4]#1: THE TIME PERIOD THAT JESUS TALKS ABOUT IS NOT THE DISPENSATION OF THE AGE OF GRACE OF THE CHURCH.[/h]All through Matthew 24 are scriptural time clues that we, as Bible believers, need to be aware of. In Matthew 24:13, Jesus says that whoever are the people who are alive and going through this time period, they are saved by a combination of faith and works. There is no Christian in our dispensation of the Age of Grace that needs to “endure until the end” to be saved. We are saved according to Ephesians 2:8,9, and kept saved according to Ephesians 1:13,14. There is nothing in Paul’s teachings that tell us to “endure” for salvation. Paul taught and preached the doctrine of Eternal Security. But, obviously, the people living in the time of Matthew 24 are not saved that way. Hence, this will be our number one reason why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Church and it’s soon-coming Rapture.

“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV) – Church Age
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13,14 (KJV) – Church Age

[h=4]#2: THE REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE HAS NO PRACTICAL SIGNIFICANCE FOR THE CHURCH[/h]Jesus starts the chapter off by saying that the Temple will be torn down to the ground and destroyed. This happened in AD 70. But interestingly, just a few verses later, He says that it’s back up and running again, and people are worshipping there. Not only that, Jesus says to “go and read the Prophet Daniel”, specifically Daniel 9:27, to see who else shows up at the rebuilt Temple in the end times. It’s the Devil himself! But guess what? Christians don’t have or need a “temple” because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. That’s the temple God has for Christians. So Matthew 24: 15 is our second reason why Jesus cannot be talking about the Church age.

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand” Matthew 24:15 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” 1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV) – Church Age

[h=4]#3: THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH IS NOT ABLE TO CARRY OUT THE COMMAND TO FLEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS[/h]Right about the same time Jesus shows the apostles about the Abomination of Desolation, He then says that the believers living in this future time period will be instructed to “flee into the mountains” and get out of Judea, which is to say Israel. Just like in our previous reason, this one also has no practical application for any Christian in the Age of Grace. First of all, only a minute fraction of born again Christians live in Israel, rendering this command meaningless to us. But it is still a command, and as such must be carried out. But by whom? Well, how about by all the Jews which has been brought back to Israel during the false 7 Year Peace Treaty engineered by the Antichrist? Now in this context, we have perfect harmony. If all the Jews in the world were regathered as the Bible says they will be in the end times, then they will all be there in Judea and able to carry out this command. This is the only way this verse has any doctrinal meaning. The people living in this time period are told to flee, Christians are told to “wait” for His Son from Heaven who gets us out before the Wrath comes. Huge Difference. Where do the Jews flee to? Why, they flee to the red rock city of Selah, Petra!

“Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” Matthew 24:16 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
“And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.” Jeremiah 29:14 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thessalonians 1:19 (KJV) – Church Age

[h=4]#4: THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE A SABBATH DAY, WE HAVE THE LORD OF THE SABBATH HIMSELF[/h]Moving on down in the chapter, we arrive at Matthew 24: 20, where another huge time clue awaits us. With the previously-mentioned fleeing still in the context, Jesus then says to pray that when you turn to run, that it’s not on the Sabbath day, which is the last day of the week, Saturday. Again, Christians were never given the command to worship on the Jewish Sabbath day, because we have the Sabbath Himself, Jesus Christ. Not just the “shadow” which is represented on the sabbath. Paul says we can worship on any day we choose, but like the Apostles in Acts 20:7, we usually come together on a Sunday, the first day of the week, for obvious reasons.

“But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:” Matthew 24:20 (KJV) – Tribulation Age
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” Colossians 2:16,17 (KJV) – Church Age
“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:7 (KJV) – Church Age

[h=4]#5: THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH IS NOT GOD’S “ELECT”, THAT REFERS TO ISRAEL AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE[/h]Our last reason why Matthew 24 cannot be talking about the Rapture of the Church is as equally compelling as the previous 4 reasons. Jesus in verse 22 says that time of Jacob’s Trouble – the Great Tribulation – is so grievous that if He didn’t come and “cut it short” then not even the “elect” would be saved. His return to cut it short is what the Bible calls the Day of the Lord, turn to Revelation 19:14 to see where the Church is on that Day. God’s elect is not the Christian Church, according to the Bible the Jews and Israel are God’s elect. We started this teaching by talking about how many Christians just automatically broad-brush the entire New Testament with the “church stamp”.

“For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.” Isaiah 45:4 (KJV)
“And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.” Isaiah 65:9 (KJV) – Tribulation Age

[h=4]GOD WROTE THE BIBLE DISPENSATIONALLY, AND THAT’S HOW WE ARE TO READ, UNDERSTAND AND APPLY IT.[/h]The whole Bible is God’s revelation of Himself to us, from cover to cover. The overarching theme of which is the battle for the Kingdom, and the King for whom it has been prepared. Simply put, it’s all about Jesus Christ. to wit;
“Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.” Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)
God wrote the Bible dispensationally, and it must be read that way to to grasp it’s meaning. Many Christians are shocked when you tell them that Matthew, Mark and Luke were not written about or for the Christian Church from a doctrinal perspective. It was written to Jews waiting for a Kingdom on Earth, which was postponed, and to those who will be alive on Earth during the time of the Great Tribulation after the Rapture.
But that’s a lesson for another day, hope this helps!

Nehemiah6 · Sep 11, 2017

IamWhoIam said:

Since you are evidently a Dispensationalist, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. And if John 14:1-3 is not talking about a Pretribulation Rapture, exactly what is it talking about?

Muzungu256 · Sep 11, 2017

the Lord said when ye see the abomination of desolation to the disciples, meaning atleast one of them should be alive when it happens. that would make the 70ad a big thing u see. why would Jesus skip over that huge event in Israel's history and just skip over it and make people wait for another 2000 years u see.
maybe its possible that there is a 2000 year wait time but what about 70ad why skip over it????? as my friend Locutus quotes me: "this is a sipple issue mon" because it really is........

Nehemiah6 · Sep 11, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

Well in connection with the Abomination of Desolation, the Lord also said that it would result in the Great Tribulation, such as has never been, nor would ever be. And following that Christ would come down to earth with power and great glory to establish His Kingdom. So had the A of D actually been accomplished around 70 AD then we should be literally living in the New Heavens and the New Earth, and all sin and evil should be non-existent on earth right now with the Devil in the Lake of Fire. Of course, you know the reality, so its time to match your Bible understanding with what is the actual state of affairs, not Fantasyland.

Muzungu256 · Sep 11, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

i know all that. but if u are a disciple of Jesus and u heard him say that,u would think when 70ad comes "ok this is it, jerusalem is surrounded by armies, Jesus said this generation" u see........ be honest

miknik5 · Sep 11, 2017

J7 said:

Do you apply this same logic to the parable of the workers in the vineyard?

miknik5 · Sep 11, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

when Jesus addressed HIS disciples on the coming of the PROMISE of the FATHER
Or when HE forewarned the church to be ready

was HE only addressing those disciples/that body of believers then?

or is HIS WORD which is living and active and will never pass, apply to all HIS DISCIPLES /HIS BODY ?

not only those yesterday
bur those today
and those tomorrow

graceNpeace · Sep 11, 2017

J7 said:

Saying something is 'like' something else cannot automatically mean mathematical equality.
The sprocket jumps in logic here are breathtaking....

You remind me of a 4X4 vehicle trying to climb a muddy hill.
The wheels are churning furiously, mud is flying everywhere - and the vehicle is sliding inexorably backwards down the hill despite the prodigious efforts of a powerful engine to drive the vehicle forwards...

J7 · Sep 11, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

Well in connection with the Abomination of Desolation, the Lord also said that it would result in the Great Tribulation, such as has never been, nor would ever be. And following that Christ would come down to earth with power and great glory to establish His Kingdom. So had the A of D actually been accomplished around 70 AD then we should be literally living in the New Heavens and the New Earth, and all sin and evil should be non-existent on earth right now with the Devil in the Lake of Fire. Of course, you know the reality, so its time to match your Bible understanding with what is the actual state of affairs, not Fantasyland.

....or you are misunderstanding what Jesus said...

J7 · Sep 11, 2017

It is just representational language. Those with ears understand, those with 4x4's play in the mud

graceNpeace said:

Ahwatukee · Sep 11, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

Hello Muzungu256,

That is not true. Do you think that while the Lord was telling his disciples these things that He would stop and say "though I'm telling you these things, don't worry about them, because it is for the people after you who will be reading this and who it will be happening to"? Consider the following:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those in Judea flee to the mountains.

In the scripture above, in the middle of His quoting of Daniel regarding the abomination, He addresses those whom He knew would be reading His words regarding this issue. This would demonstrate that this information is directed at those who would be reading this after it was written.

In John 14:1-3, Jesus also told his disciples that he was going to the Father's house to prepare a place for them and that he would come back and gather them and take them back to those dwelling places in the Father's house. If we were to apply your logic here, it would mean that Jesus was only coming back for the disciples. The meaning of that promise though includes the entire church.

Same thing with Paul regarding 1 Thes.4:13-17 regarding the dead resurrecting and the living being changed and caught up. The letter was written to the Thessalonians regarding those living who would be changed and caught up, but that event did not find fulfillment with them and is still future and includes the entire church. And there are many, many, other similar examples.

Why? Because at the end of the sixty-nine seven year periods when the Messiah was cut off, God put a hold on the last seven years and began building His church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend into the atmosphere where the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them. Then the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house that where He is, we may be also.

Following that, the antifchrist will establish his seven year agreement with Israel, initiating that last seven years, with God picking up right where He left off with Israel, complete with temple and sacrifices, etc.

God saved the last seven years to be fulfilled in conjunction with the time of His wrath (the day of the Lord) leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

J7 · Sep 11, 2017

Hmmm, sorry Ahwatukee, but Jesus made no bones about it being in that generation

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

How do you de-literalize these very clear, very unambiguous words?

Muzungu256 · Sep 11, 2017

miknik5 said:

was HE not addressing those disciples / that body of believers at all? but only ppl 2000 years later???? this is what we call going in circles u see. Be blessed

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