The Temple Of God

[Bogadile]

The disciples asked Jesus how long the temple would be a ruin.

Where does it say that they asked how long the temple would be in ruin? In matt 24 it says that it will be destroyed and disciples ask: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Not a mention of how long it will be in ruin? Or are you reading it from some other verse?

 

[Bogadile]

Hey Bogadile,

I would have to agree with what Nehemiah6 said. The fact remains that we have 8 chapters describing in detail a temple whose dimensions do not match any previous temple, being much larger. And there is much detail regarding the land allotment for each tribe, which is also different from the land allotment that the tribes had after they went into Canaan. We are also informed that, only the lineage of Zaddok will be able to offer sacrifices because of the idolatry of the other Levite clans.

My point is that, whatever conclusion one draws, there is just too much detail for it to be conditional or symbolic. As I said, it is written in a "matter of fact" format. As to why, is anyone's guess.

But what about the new testament verses that seem to run contrary to it? It says the old covenant is done. Hebr 8:13
I see what you and Nehemiah are saying however. The "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it" is good enough for me as well.
I do not know if it is literal or not, when or if it will happen or how but it is in there and God will sort it out. I believe so.

 

[J7]

..............in blue

Where does it say that they asked how long the temple would be in ruin? Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?

In matt 24 it says that it will be destroyed and disciples ask: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Luke 21:6 the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another

Not a mention of how long it will be in ruin? Or are you reading it from some other verse?

 

[Ahwatukee]

But what about the new testament verses that seem to run contrary to it? It says the old covenant is done. Hebr 8:13
I see what you and Nehemiah are saying however. The "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it" is good enough for me as well.
I do not know if it is literal or not, when or if it will happen or how but it is in there and God will sort it out. I believe so.

Remember, the church and Israel have different programs. When I say Israel, I mean the unbelieving nation of Israel. If Israel had the same program as the church, then Israel would not be found on the earth during the time of God's wrath in fulfillment of that last seven years, which was for Israel only. So, we can apply those verses you mention to the church which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. But God has a different program for the nation Israel apart from the church.

I'm sure that we will receive knowledge regarding this and many other things when we are changed into our immortal and glorified bodies. I am sure that since Jesus said that we would rule with Him during the millennial kingdom and all eternity, that we will have some part in governing things.

 

[Bogadile]

Remember, the church and Israel have different programs. When I say Israel, I mean the unbelieving nation of Israel. If Israel had the same program as the church, then Israel would not be found on the earth during the time of God's wrath in fulfillment of that last seven years, which was for Israel only. So, we can apply those verses you mention to the church which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. But God has a different program for the nation Israel apart from the church.

I'm sure that we will receive knowledge regarding this and many other things when we are changed into our immortal and glorified bodies. I am sure that since Jesus said that we would rule with Him during the millennial kingdom and all eternity, that we will have some part in governing things.

Different program? What in the world. The Jews who did not receive Jesus were cut off like Peter said. There is no salvation outside of Christ. When they do come to Christ they are in the program.

Where is this different program thing in the Bible? What do you mean by it? That some get to God without Christ? I hope it is not so.

If the book of hebrews says that it the old covenant has passed how can you say that they still have some program?

You said "we can apply those verses you mention to the church but God has a different program for the nation of Israel apart from the Church" which is ironic considernig it is called the book of HEBREWS. So it should apply to them as well I thought the whole deal was romans through philemon is Christian doctrine what happened to that?

I hope what you mean is that God is not done with Israel and will deal with them again, that I agree with. But a separate program? I see that no where. They will be brought IN to the existing program, which is the only program there is. Faith in Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Different program? What in the world. The Jews who did not receive Jesus were cut off like Peter said.

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach."

After the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is gathered and taken back to the Father's house, in the middle of the seven years, the woman/Israel flees into the wilderness where she is taken care of by God during that last 3 1/2 years, ergo, different program. You don't see the church going through that do you? God has unfinished business with His people Israel.

You mentioned what Peter said, but did you read what Paul said?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Bogadile]

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach."

After the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, is gathered and taken back to the Father's house, in the middle of the seven years, the woman/Israel flees into the wilderness where she is taken care of by God during that last 3 1/2 years, ergo, different program. You don't see the church going through that do you? God has unfinished business with His people Israel.

You mentioned what Peter said, but did you read what Paul said?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have read those. I agree with everything Paul wrote in Romans 11, but notice they are grafted in, to the same program not a different one Same thing in revelation 12 if it is speaking about Israel, they are christians now, because "They overcame by the blood of the lamb...." so clearly these are believers in Jesus, that is the only program going. Simple.

Revelation 12:5 seems to be about Jesus' birth, since who else rules over the nations? Does not sound like something that is going to happen in the 21st century, Jesus was already born yes?

I also agree God will deal with Israel again as I stated in my previous message. I think we are just agreeing with each other and using sloppy language.

Let us try to clarify this; I am saying that those Jews who get saved in the future will be in Christ, do you agree with that? If you do, then it is fine with me, that is the only program going, IN CHRIST!
I think what you mean by different program is that God will deal with Israel again, which is something I agree with, if you are saying they are saved outside of Christ, that I do not agree with.

 

[Bogadile]

..............in blue

You posted Luke 21:6-7 but it speaks of the destruction of the temple, but nothing about rebuilding it again after its once been destroyed.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I have read those. I agree with everything Paul wrote in Romans 11, but notice they are grafted in, to the same program not a different one Same thing in revelation 12 if it is speaking about Israel, they are christians now, because "They overcame by the blood of the lamb...." so clearly these are believers in Jesus, that is the only program going. Simple.

No Bogadile! The woman/Israel being cared for out in the wilderness takes place after the church has been gathered and during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The church will have been gathered at least 3 1/2 years prior to that, ergo, different program. If they were apart of the church, they would have gone with the church when it is gathered. However, at the time the church is gathered, they will still not have recognized Jesus as their Messiah. It is the male child that unbelieving Israel gives birth to, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who recognize Jesus as their Messiah and are caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years.

Some time during that last 3 1/2 and before Christ returns to the earth to end the age, Israel will say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Since the second coming of Christ is still in the future, then all those things cannot have been fulfilled, therefore we must determine what Christ meant by "this generation" (Greek genea). Not only does it mean a generation of people, but it can also mean a race, or a family, or a nation of people, and in this context it would have been preferable to have "this nation [Israel] shall not pass till all things be fulfilled". In other words Israel would exist and be on earth at the second coming of Christ.

Strong's Concordance

genea: race, family, generation​

Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation
Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά
b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

Yeah, but when Jesus says "this generation" he is not referring to the generation that he is speaking from, but to the generation that sees those signs. Of this I am sure of.

The word you listed for "generation" also means this " the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation"

 

[Bogadile]

No Bogadile! The woman/Israel being cared for out in the wilderness takes place after the church has been gathered and during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The church will have been gathered at least 3 1/2 years prior to that, ergo, different program. If they were apart of the church, they would have gone with the church when it is gathered. However, at the time the church is gathered, they will still not have recognized Jesus as their Messiah. It is the male child that unbelieving Israel gives birth to, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who recognize Jesus as their Messiah and are caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years.

Some time during that last 3 1/2 and before Christ returns to the earth to end the age, Israel will say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

You always tell people about the literal hermeneutic and all these things, yet you just spiritualized one person who is clearly Jesus in Revelation 12:5 into 144 000 collective who will rule the nations??

So now we got to the real issue: They cannot be the church because the church is gathered pre-trib. Well, they are in Christ, clearly, it says that. So, they are in Christ, but not part of the Church? They are tribulation saints then, whatever we call them, these are Christians who lets say missed the rapture, why is it a different program if they are tribulation saints who missed the rapture? They are still in Christ as it says, so how is this program different? Merely because they missed the rapture?

Also, I would appreciate if you could answer my question to ease my worries:
Is there a different plan of salvation outside of Jesus for the Jews, yes or no? I hope it is no.

 

[J7]

You posted Luke 21:6-7 but it speaks of the destruction of the temple, but nothing about rebuilding it again after its once been destroyed.

Maybe you are right.

But the disciples wanted to know when it would be reconstructed, that is implicit in their question.

Jesus tells us it will be a ruin right up to his return.......BUT, Paul also told us that when the man of sin appears, Jesus is triggered to return........

Let me read it again...

 

[J7]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

29 Tribulation ends AD73. Israel (flesh) decovenanted for an indefinite period (the Church Age/Last Days).

30 Temple rebuilt: world mourns for deluded Jews. Christ returns

 

[J7]

Unfortunately it means people of a certain age, rather than bloodlineage. If Jesus was referring to a future generation, he would have said 'that generation'.

This generation means what it literally means, (which is ironic AK as you always espouse a literal understanding unless it makes no sense, ) "the bunch of Israelites Inhabiting Israel right now".

Strictly speaking, it means those born from AD26 onwards.

Yeah, but when Jesus says "this generation" he is not referring to the generation that he is speaking from, but to the generation that sees those signs. Of this I am sure of.

The word you listed for "generation" also means this " the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation"

 

[J7]

Ok Boga, now I drop a real spanner in the works. And maybe some apologies are in order from certain parties.

In John 2 Jesus said he would raise up the temple - egeiro naos, and in Revelation 11 the angel tells John to raise up the temple - egeiro naos

 

[Bogadile]

Ok Boga, now I drop a real spanner in the works. And maybe some apologies are in order from certain parties.

In John 2 Jesus said he would raise up the temple - egeiro naos, and in Revelation 11 the angel tells John to raise up the temple - egeiro naos

You mean:

John 2:20-21
"Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."

I think that is clearly the temple of His body. HOWEVER: Revelation 11 seems to me to be a real visible physical temple. I do not know greek so can you explain if there is some thing there in the egeiro naos? Does it indicate john 2 was also a physical temple as well?

 

[J7]

I don't know Greek, but unlike some poseurs on the site, I don't claim to either.

The point is it is the identical phrase, egeiro naos.

Jesus said he would raise the physical Temple in 3 days, and the angel told John to raise the temple also.

What it all means. I don't know....

You mean:

John 2:20-21
"Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."

I think that is clearly the temple of His body. HOWEVER: Revelation 11 seems to me to be a real visible physical temple. I do not know greek so can you explain if there is some thing there in the egeiro naos? Does it indicate john 2 was also a physical temple as well?

 

[Bogadile]

I don't know Greek, but unlike some poseurs on the site, I don't claim to either.

The point is it is the identical phrase, egeiro naos.

Jesus said he would raise the physical Temple in 3 days, and the angel told John to raise the temple also.

What it all means. I don't know....

Indeed. I will look into it as well, this is an interesting subject.

The fake "greek experts" are one thing indeed. At one point I figured I would learn greek but I quickly realized that we have a ton of scholars who know greek, and still have the same disagreements than the rest of us, so learning greek did not cause them to agree or get any special understanding. I do speak multiple languages so I understand how translation works, it means the same thing, but there can be certain phrases or idioms that are hard to translate directly, and if they are, become nonsensical in another language.

 

[J7]

It is a really serious matter actually, it's a shame people don't take it more seriously. Here, one more go:

When Jesus gave the Temple Prophecy / 'Olivet Discourse', his answer to the disciples' questions can have 3 interpretations

1) The temple will never be rebuilt

2) The Temple will be rebuilt just before he returns

3) The Temple will be rebuilt just after he returns


If the Temple will never be rebuilt, I do not believe he would have spoken of his 2nd Coming.

Therefore I think it is either 2 or 3


Actually, I think it is 2. But the deception of course is that the Antichrist will sit in the Temple, claiming he is Christ returned. Major stuff. Get with it peeps

 

[Bogadile]

It is a really serious matter actually, it's a shame people don't take it more seriously. Here, one more go:

When Jesus gave the Temple Prophecy / 'Olivet Discourse', his answer to the disciples' questions can have 3 interpretations

1) The temple will never be rebuilt

2) The Temple will be rebuilt just before he returns

3) The Temple will be rebuilt just after he returns


If the Temple will never be rebuilt, I do not believe he would have spoken of his 2nd Coming.

Therefore I think it is either 2 or 3


Actually, I think it is 2. But the deception of course is that the Antichrist will sit in the Temple, claiming he is Christ returned. Major stuff. Get with it peeps

I believe in #2 as well.