The trumpet blast

[Karraster]

In 1Th 4:16 we are told that the dead in Christ remain in the ground until the rapture.

In John's Revelation, the only mention of disembodied spirits refers to those beheaded for rejecting the mark of the beast.

In the grave there is no time so the rapture will seem instantaneous.

What about this example of blood that talked. "And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground." (Gen. 4:9, 10).

Would you call this a "disembodied spirit"?

 

[Nehemiah6]

In 1Th 4:16 we are told that the dead in Christ remain in the ground until the rapture.

This statement needs clarity otherwise it would represent Soul Sleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What that verse says is that the DEAD BODIES of the saints remain in the ground. Christ brings their souls and spirits with Him at the Resurrection/Rapture, their immortal, glorified bodies come out of their graves, and are joined to their souls and spirits instantaneously, and they all rise to meet the Lord in the air.

Just as Lazarus was resurrected and came out of his tomb, all the saints are resurrected, but with a difference. Their bodies have been transformed and made fit for Heaven eternally. They are called "spiritual bodies".

 

[Nehemiah6]

What about this example of blood that talked. "And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground." (Gen. 4:9, 10).

Would you call this a "disembodied spirit"?

Not really. This is a metaphorical statement by God "for the life of the flesh is in the blood".

 

[Yonah]

The answers, as always, are found in His Word.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

LUKE 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

using a parable to explain the state of the dead from a biblical standpoint is a mistake, that was never the point of the
parable, Also a word study on the word spirit will be helpful as well, its best to see where a word appears in biblical text and do a topical word study in each context, the understanding of these things is not right on the surface but must be searched out and diligently sought for.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In 1Th 4:16 we are told that the dead in Christ remain in the ground until the rapture.

In John's Revelation, the only mention of disembodied spirits refers to those beheaded for rejecting the mark of the beast.

In the grave there is no time so the rapture will seem instantaneous.

The "dead in Christ" is referring to the body only. For Phil.1:23 and 2 Cor.5:6 proclaim that when the believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When the Lord descends from heaven to gather the church, he will bring with Him those spirits/souls who are in his presence and their bodies will resurrect, immortal and glorified and their spirits will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living will be changed and caught up with them.

 

[heartofdavid]

A case can be made for soul sleep as well as instantly with the Lord.

I wonder,though,how the soul sleep adherents explain the verses that destroy that position.

The rch man and Lazarus seems to ruin their deal

 

[Karraster]

When we die if our spirits unite with God in heaven instantaneously, then why can't these people in heaven communicate with the believers on earth. If all the prophet's and apostles are up there now, why are they silent?

Maybe because their not in heaven with God, maybe they are still asleep in death, waiting for the trumpet blast.

In 1Th 4:16 we are told that the dead in Christ remain in the ground until the rapture.

In John's Revelation, the only mention of disembodied spirits refers to those beheaded for rejecting the mark of the beast.

In the grave there is no time so the rapture will seem instantaneous.

What about this example of blood that talked. "And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground." (Gen. 4:9, 10).

Would you call this a "disembodied spirit"?

What is a disembodied spirit? Some are disembodied but not all? Confusing.

 

[MarcR]

What about this example of blood that talked. "And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground." (Gen. 4:9, 10).

Would you call this a "disembodied spirit"?

God is able to hear things we can't. The blood cried from the ground not from heaven. I am not certain that the spirits of the dead remain with the bodies; Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven without dying and the theif on the cross was promised Heaven that day with Jesus. Jesus was still in the grave; but Jesus is able to be more than one place at a time.....The rest of us are not.

 

[PHart]

I wonder,though,how the soul sleep adherents explain the verses that destroy that position.

The rch man and Lazarus seems to ruin their deal

Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus destroy the soul sleep doctrine too:

"3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him." (Matthew 17:3 NASB)

 

[Karraster]

God is able to hear things we can't. The blood cried from the ground not from heaven. I am not certain that the spirits of the dead remain with the bodies; Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven without dying and the theif on the cross was promised Heaven that day with Jesus. Jesus was still in the grave; but Jesus is able to be more than one place at a time.....The rest of us are not.

Thanks for your reply MarkR. Certainly I do not understand it all, just trying to reconcile some things that seem to contradict. My position being, if it seems to contradict, I just don't understand it is all.

"Blood crying out" is a metaphor, correct? I think so.

John 3:13 says no one has ascended to heaven except He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man.

My understanding is that the whirlwind merely removed Elijah, as it's recorded several years later that he wrote a letter to Jehoram.
( Hebrews 11:39 and these all having obtained a good report through faith received not the promise.) ~refering to prophets and righteous men, Elijah, IMO being one of them.
Just trying to reconcile some things. Enoch, that's a toughy. Don't have much to say about that.

 

[mcubed]

My mom talks to her dead husband, not my father but saved on his death bed. On occasion, I talk to my dead first husband, who I know does not hear me but some moronic way it pacifies me in the moment. If there is no sorrow in heaven why on Earth would I possibly think they could see me? That is dumb. I tell Alexie if 30 years after his murder if there was marriage in heaven I would be with you for eternity in heaven, knowing full well there is not, Y-shua answered the Pharisees and said there is not marriage in heaven. But in my flesh, I get a pleasure “talking” to him.

I will not answer if we are asleep or in heaven because Scripture supports both and the truth is I am not sure. But, what I am assure is they are dead, asleep or in heaven, they do not hear me. Talking to Alexie is a morbid way of feeling connected that last for a few seconds then I cry out to the LIVING—Y-SHUA!!!! He gets it and He gets me, then it’s ALL GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!