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Thread: baptism

  1. #21
    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I am sorry bro, but I do not agree.

    Water baptism is immersion, it is not a dipping or sprinkling, that is why the word baptizo (to immerse plunge place into, not bapto (to dip) is used.

    I see the sequence is this

    1. Make a new disciple
    2. Baptize them
    3. Teach them all things
    4. remember I am always with you.


    We do not teach in the name of the father son and spirit, we teach THE father son and spirit. We immerse in the name o the father son and spirit.
    I assume you have been around here long enough to know the difference between bapto and baptizo Bapto is water baptism.

    I'm afraid you misunderstand immersion in comparison to dipping in the matter of baptism.

    907 βαπτίζω baptizo bap-tid’-zo
    from a derivative of 911; verb; TDNT-1:529,92; {See TDNT 123 }
    AV-baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80
    1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
    2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
    3) to overwhelm
    ++++
    Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows
    the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
    When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. #Mr 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!
    (Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989).

    Perhaps this will clarify what I'm endeavoring to convey.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    I assume you have been around here long enough to know the difference between bapto and baptizo Bapto is water baptism.

    I'm afraid you misunderstand immersion in comparison to dipping in the matter of baptism.

    907 βαπτίζω baptizo bap-tid’-zo
    from a derivative of 911; verb; TDNT-1:529,92; {See TDNT 123 }
    AV-baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80
    1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
    2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
    3) to overwhelm
    ++++
    Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows
    the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
    When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. #Mr 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!
    (Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989).

    Perhaps this will clarify what I'm endeavoring to convey.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

    I have studied baptize and baptism for years. People do not have to come to CC to understand what the words means, I am sure you were not saying this.

    Baptizo is used in baptism (baptizo) in water, Not only By John the Baptist (Matt 3: 11, mark 1: 8, Luke 3: 16, and John 1: 26) but also by Peter, who told of instances where he commanded people to be baptized (baptizo) in water, or where people were baptized (Baptizo) in water (Acts 2, Acts 8: 36-38, Acts 10: 47. And many other instances of the word baptizo used for water baptism.

    Baptise is not a native English word, it is not even a translation of the greek word into English, it is a transliteration of the greek word.

    ie,

    Greek baptizo became English baptize
    Greek baptismo became english baptism,
    greek baptistes became English baptist, or one who baptisms.

    So we must interpret the words used, according to context (romans 6 speaks of the baptism of the HS, John spoke of the baptism of Jesus meaning jesus wil baptism with the HS.)

    where as the word bapto means to dip, (and is usually from what I see translated dip, not transliterated,) Revelation speaks of the return of the king n a horse, with his robes dipped (bapto) in blood.

    There are many uses of the word baptizo and baptism in the Ancient Greek, not only koine but secular.

    As the nation of Isreal was baptised into Moses. So we also are baptised into Christ.

    As John the baptised baptised people in water, so did the disciples go and baptised people in water also. Only it was a christian baptism, looking back to the crucified messiah, which was different than Johns baptism, which was a baptism of repentance to get ready for he coming Messiah.

    Any way, I have a few articles I have used int he past to show the differences if you are interested.
    Last edited by eternally-gratefull; September 14th, 2017 at 03:35 PM.
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    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    God says baptism saves (1Peter 3:21), so to say it does not save makes Him out to be a liar, and the Bible out to be a liar- because it says "Let every man be a liar and God be right." You agree that only Christ's blood washes away sin, but it does you no good if you don't come into contact with it- which baptism puts you into contact with it. Baptism is also the only way the Bible says we get into Christ- which is important since only those in Christ will be saved.

    There is no verse that says 'baptism of the Spirit puts you in Christ', but there is scripture about water baptism putting you in Christ, and saving you. Having the Holy Spirit, whether before or after baptism, does not save you. The only thing that saves you is contact with Christ's blood- which baptism accomplishes.

    Baptism is how we obey the gospel- which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We die to ourself, burial our sinful self in the watery grave of baptism, and are raised to newness of life. The Bible says "With flames of fire He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of His Son."

    God does not say baptism saves in 1 peter 2, Peter said repentance saved, and those who repented were to be baptised because they received remission of Sin (we need to use the greek, the English translation is flawed)

    as for baptism of the HS

    John the baptise fortold it (he will baptism with the HS)
    Jesus promised it would occur (You will be baptised by the HS not many days from now)
    and Peter witnessed it (acts 10)

    saying water baptism saves is adding works to grace and preaching we must save ourself by doing the work of baptism, that is again, no different than the jews trying to add circumcision to the gospel. In fact paul told the collisions, it was the spiritual cirucmcision (done by the hands of God not men) which saved us, he called it the baptism done by the one who raised christ form the dead (the HS)
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Senior Member OneFaith's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    God does not say baptism saves in 1 peter 2, Peter said repentance saved, and those who repented were to be baptised because they received remission of Sin (we need to use the greek, the English translation is flawed)

    as for baptism of the HS

    John the baptise fortold it (he will baptism with the HS)
    Jesus promised it would occur (You will be baptised by the HS not many days from now)
    and Peter witnessed it (acts 10)

    saying water baptism saves is adding works to grace and preaching we must save ourself by doing the work of baptism, that is again, no different than the jews trying to add circumcision to the gospel. In fact paul told the collisions, it was the spiritual cirucmcision (done by the hands of God not men) which saved us, he called it the baptism done by the one who raised christ form the dead (the HS)
    Wow, how brave of you to say that baptism does not save in verse 1Peter 3:21! That is like when the snake who added one word to Eve saying "You will surely not die, don't listen to God." And yes repentance does save, but it does not save alone. Just like baptism does save, but does not save alone- for baptism without belief is just getting wet, and baptism without repentance serves no purpose- since you are dying to sin.

    And, like I said before, whether you have the Holy Spirit before or after baptism, whether you are baptized by the Holy Spirit (which means granted ability), the only thing that saves is Christ's blood, and though the steps that lead you to baptism save, because they lead you to baptism, baptism saves because it puts us in contact with Christ's blood.

    This is not my opinion, this is scripture, and if you disagree with it, you are not disagreeing with me, but with God Himself. (I could never be so daring, I'm far too wise and fearful to call God a liar).
    Last edited by OneFaith; September 14th, 2017 at 05:22 PM.

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    Wow, how brave of you to say that baptism does not save in verse 1Peter 3:21! That is like when the snake who added one word to Eve saying "You will surely not die, don't listen to God." And yes repentance does save, but it does not save alone. Just like baptism does save, but does not save alone- for baptism without belief is just getting wet, and baptism without repentance serves no purpose- since you are dying to sin.

    And, like I said before, whether you have the Holy Spirit before or after baptism, whether you are baptized by the Holy Spirit (which means granted ability), the only thing that saves is Christ's blood, and though the steps that lead you to baptism save because they lead you to baptism, baptism saves because it puts us in contact with Christ's blood. This is not my option, this is scripture, and if you disagree with it, you are not disagreeing with me, but with God Himself. (I could never be so daring, I'm far too wise and fearful to call God a liar).
    The serpent did not say, "... don't listen to God." You have added four words.


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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    Wow, how brave of you to say that baptism does not save in verse 1Peter 3:21! That is like when the snake who added one word to Eve saying "You will surely not die, don't listen to God." And yes repentance does save, but it does not save alone. Just like baptism does save, but does not save alone- for baptism without belief is just getting wet, and baptism without repentance serves no purpose- sin you are dying to sin.
    It is n0t being brave, it is just study, which caused me to say it, it is truth. The greek does not say baptism saved in Acts 2.

    Perter told everyone to repent, and they will recieve the gift of the HS, he told only those who received that gift, to be baptised, because they had received remission of sin.

    But if you have no desire to study what was really said, then I can not help you.


    And, like I said before, whether you have the Holy Spirit before or after baptism, whether you are baptized by the Holy Spirit (which means granted ability), the only thing that saves is Christ's blood, and though the steps that lead you to baptism save because they lead you to baptism, baptism saves because it puts us in contact with Christ's blood. This is not my option, this is scripture, and if you disagree with it, you are not disagreeing with me, but with God Himself. (I could never be so daring, I'm far too wise and fearful to call God a liar).
    If you have not been baptised by the HS, your not saved, your still dead in your sin.

    water baptism will not save you, God does not need to wait until you get immersed to save you, he can save you were you are. Are you going to trust God, or your works?

    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Senior Member OneFaith's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    The serpent did not say, don't listen to God. You have added four words.


    My apologies, I was paraphrasing. But the serpent's goal was to get Eve to not listen to God. So whether he said those exact words doesn't matter.
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    Senior Member OneFaith's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    It is n0t being brave, it is just study, which caused me to say it, it is truth. The greek does not say baptism saved in Acts 2.

    Perter told everyone to repent, and they will recieve the gift of the HS, he told only those who received that gift, to be baptised, because they had received remission of sin.

    But if you have no desire to study what was really said, then I can not help you.




    If you have not been baptised by the HS, your not saved, your still dead in your sin.

    water baptism will not save you, God does not need to wait until you get immersed to save you, he can save you were you are. Are you going to trust God, or your works?

    The Bible says otherwise, but it's not my goal to argue. You have a God-given right to think and believe the way you choose to. Just heed the warning that you will be judged according to what the Bible actually says- and not just in one verse, but in all the verses combined.

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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    The Bible says otherwise, but it's not my goal to argue. You have a God-given right to think and believe the way you choose to. Just heed the warning that you will be judged according to what the Bible actually says- and not just in one verse, but in all the verses combined.
    Well the bible does not say what you think, if you do not wish to study it, i can not help.

    you would be wise to study. The Bible can not contradict itself.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    It is n0t being brave, it is just study, which caused me to say it, it is truth. The greek does not say baptism saved in Acts 2.

    Perter told everyone to repent, and they will recieve the gift of the HS, he told only those who received that gift, to be baptised, because they had received remission of sin.

    But if you have no desire to study what was really said, then I can not help you.




    If you have not been baptised by the HS, your not saved, your still dead in your sin.

    water baptism will not save you, God does not need to wait until you get immersed to save you, he can save you were you are. Are you going to trust God, or your works?

    im interested in it. because if what u say is true, why do all translations mistranslate it? strange.
    so acts 2:38 is saying: repent and u will receive the gift of the HS and get baptized?
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    My apologies, I was paraphrasing. But the serpent's goal was to get Eve to not listen to God. So whether he said those exact words doesn't matter.
    It just seemed odd that in speaking of words being added, you did the same. We do not even know if God told Eve that, or if Adam passed the message along to her. Although, considering the fact that Eve was deceived, and Adam held responsible for the offense, though both were punished, it would seem Eve was not told directly by God Himself. Adam received the command before Eve was made...


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    Default Re: baptism

    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." To the man who helped hold up the ark of the covenant, it seemed right to him, because it was falling. But what God said was no one could touch it unless he was a Levite, and that man, seemly doing good, dropped dead instantly. We need to let go of all our opinions, and everything we've been taught if needs be (like Saul/Paul), and only go by what God actually says.

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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzungu256 View Post
    im interested in it. because if what u say is true, why do all translations mistranslate it? strange.
    so acts 2:38 is saying: repent and u will receive the gift of the HS and get baptized?
    In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

    *Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

    *In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

    So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    Wow, how brave of you to say that baptism does not save in verse 1Peter 3:21!
    1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

    We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

    Just as the eight people were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ark for the saving of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzungu256 View Post
    im interested in it. because if what u say is true, why do all translations mistranslate it? strange.
    so acts 2:38 is saying: repent and u will receive the gift of the HS and get baptized?

    Actually led English bibles did get it right,

    Repent ye, and let every one of you.

    Ye is plural,. Peter told everyone to repent,

    You is singular. He only told a select group of people to be baptised.

    Now we have to take the subjects and match them up,

    in the greek, repent ye, recieve gift of Holy Spirit is 2nd person plural

    Be baptised remission of sin 3rd person singular

    Now that we know what words go together, all we have to do is look at one word.. The word "for" or "unto"remmisin of sin.

    In the English as well as the Greek, the word can mean, Because of, Or in order to gain,

    in order to gain does not make sense, if they got the gift of the s[pirit based on repentance, then they already had remission of sin, This they were btised due to the fat they had already recieved remission of sin.

    The modern English is lacking, because unlike the old. It has no plural form of the word you.
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    Default Re: baptism

    (Water) baptism
    A few thoughts on it can be found Here

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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I have studied baptize and baptism for years. People do not have to come to CC to understand what the words means, I am sure you were not saying this.

    Baptizo is used in baptism (baptizo) in water, Not only By John the Baptist (Matt 3: 11, mark 1: 8, Luke 3: 16, and John 1: 26) but also by Peter, who told of instances where he commanded people to be baptized (baptizo) in water, or where people were baptized (Baptizo) in water (Acts 2, Acts 8: 36-38, Acts 10: 47. And many other instances of the word baptizo used for water baptism.

    Baptise is not a native English word, it is not even a translation of the greek word into English, it is a transliteration of the greek word.

    ie,

    Greek baptizo became English baptize
    Greek baptismo became english baptism,
    greek baptistes became English baptist, or one who baptisms.

    So we must interpret the words used, according to context (romans 6 speaks of the baptism of the HS, John spoke of the baptism of Jesus meaning jesus wil baptism with the HS.)

    where as the word bapto means to dip, (and is usually from what I see translated dip, not transliterated,) Revelation speaks of the return of the king n a horse, with his robes dipped (bapto) in blood.

    There are many uses of the word baptizo and baptism in the Ancient Greek, not only koine but secular.

    As the nation of Isreal was baptised into Moses. So we also are baptised into Christ.

    As John the baptised baptised people in water, so did the disciples go and baptised people in water also. Only it was a christian baptism, looking back to the crucified messiah, which was different than Johns baptism, which was a baptism of repentance to get ready for he coming Messiah.

    Any way, I have a few articles I have used int he past to show the differences if you are interested.
    Bapto is the Greek word most commonly used by the Holy Spirit to indicate water baptism.

    We can be immersed in doctrine and we are immersed in the Holy Spirit without the intention or need to be withdrawn from the immersion. To immerse in water and not be withdrawn produces catastrophic results.

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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    Ananias said to Paul "What are you waiting for, arise, be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

    Only Christ blood washes away sin, and baptism puts us in Christ's death where He shed His blood (Romans 6:3), and God uses it during baptism to perform circumcision of the heart. (Colossians 2:11,12).
    Baptism according to scripture is a very important sacrament, however, Paul absolutely clears up the matter by completely removing baptism from the equation of Salvation. He plainly states that Jesus Christ said baptism was not a part of the Gospel, look at 1 Cor. 1:17, For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: This verse clearly removes baptism from the gospel. He said that Christ sent him, not to baptize but preach the gospel. If baptism was required to be saved would Paul have minimized it? Read 1 Cor. 1:14 I think God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius. WOW! did Paul just lose his concern for lost people? Or, maybe it clears the water (NPI) about baptism be a part of Salvation. We must be concerned about obeying the commands of Christ, but we must also be careful to always rightly divide the word of God. Especially concerning our salvation. This passage of scripture alone should clear-up any question's about adding to the gospel of Christ. I think we should be very careful. God has done all the work for our salvation, our part is to believe it, turn from our sin, and be obedient. The first command of a Christian is to be baptized to identify with Him after we are saved. But , in no way according to Jesus Christ does baptism play any part in obtaining salvation. ( "Chris sent me not to baptize...")

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    Senior Member hornetguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Donmech View Post
    Baptism according to scripture is a very important sacrament, however, Paul absolutely clears up the matter by completely removing baptism from the equation of Salvation. He plainly states that Jesus Christ said baptism was not a part of the Gospel, look at 1 Cor. 1:17, For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: This verse clearly removes baptism from the gospel. He said that Christ sent him, not to baptize but preach the gospel. If baptism was required to be saved would Paul have minimized it? Read 1 Cor. 1:14 I think God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius. WOW! did Paul just lose his concern for lost people? Or, maybe it clears the water (NPI) about baptism be a part of Salvation. We must be concerned about obeying the commands of Christ, but we must also be careful to always rightly divide the word of God. Especially concerning our salvation. This passage of scripture alone should clear-up any question's about adding to the gospel of Christ. I think we should be very careful. God has done all the work for our salvation, our part is to believe it, turn from our sin, and be obedient. The first command of a Christian is to be baptized to identify with Him after we are saved. But , in no way according to Jesus Christ does baptism play any part in obtaining salvation. ( "Chris sent me not to baptize...")
    I think you are out of context here.... Paul was addressing the believers who were arguing over which one of them was better than the other, by virtue of who had baptized them..... "I was baptized by Barnabas".... "oh yeah? Well I was baptized by PAUL!".... that kind of thing.

    Paul is simply saying that Jesus didn't send him (Paul) out to see how many people he could physically baptize, that HIS mission was to teach and preach the gospel. He was in NO way eliminating, or even minimizing the importance of baptism.

    Please re-read the whole passage and see if that makes any sense to you...
    jaybird88 likes this.
    No man is really saved unless he is in his heart obedient to Christ. C.H. Spurgeon

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