Revelation 12 Sign: September 23,2017
- Thread starter watcher2013
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G
The 70 weeks are finished. They ended ~3.5 years after the resurrection of Christ. ( which occurred in the middle of the 70th week ) At that time, the 'times of the Jews' ended and the 'times of the Gentiles' began. Shortly after, the events of 70 A.D. occurred - and, all that followed after that...
We are still in the 'times of the Gentiles' today.
There is "plenty" of 'further' prophecy. It has been unfolding over the past ~2000 years.
As for Revelation --- some is past, some is present, some is future...
We are still in the 'times of the Gentiles' today.
There is "plenty" of 'further' prophecy. It has been unfolding over the past ~2000 years.
As for Revelation --- some is past, some is present, some is future...
G
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I do not believe that the phrase "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24 is saying that [ the city of ] Jerusalem will be "kept desolate" - "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" -- the 'desolations' in verse 26 above are not 'permanent'; rather, they "are determined" only "until the end of the war"... ( circa 70 A.D. )
I believe that the phrase "make it desolate" in verse 27 is referring specifically to the temple, not the city; hence, the destruction of the temple - never to be rebuilt again - [ desolate ] "until the consummation"... ( I believe that the word 'consummation' [ here ] - meaning, "the end of all things" - is [ essentially ] referring to the Second Coming of Christ )
I believe that the very last phrase in verse 27 is [ mostly ] referring to the aftermath of the events of 70 A.D.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I do not believe that the phrase "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24 is saying that [ the city of ] Jerusalem will be "kept desolate" - "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" -- the 'desolations' in verse 26 above are not 'permanent'; rather, they "are determined" only "until the end of the war"... ( circa 70 A.D. )
I believe that the phrase "make it desolate" in verse 27 is referring specifically to the temple, not the city; hence, the destruction of the temple - never to be rebuilt again - [ desolate ] "until the consummation"... ( I believe that the word 'consummation' [ here ] - meaning, "the end of all things" - is [ essentially ] referring to the Second Coming of Christ )
I believe that the very last phrase in verse 27 is [ mostly ] referring to the aftermath of the events of 70 A.D.
Hey GaryA,
I guarantee you that the 70 weeks of years are not finished. When Christ was crucified at the end of the 69 sevens, He paused the last seven years and began to build the church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church is completed, the Lord will gather the church and will pick up where he left off with Israel fulfilling the decree of seventy sevens, complete with a temple and sacrifices, which will take place in conjunction with the prophesied wrath of God and all that is written regarding Christ's return to the earth to end of the age.
I guarantee you that the 70 weeks of years are not finished. When Christ was crucified at the end of the 69 sevens, He paused the last seven years and began to build the church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church is completed, the Lord will gather the church and will pick up where he left off with Israel fulfilling the decree of seventy sevens, complete with a temple and sacrifices, which will take place in conjunction with the prophesied wrath of God and all that is written regarding Christ's return to the earth to end of the age.
We all are Jackson.
God punishes in multiples of 7. (as per Leviticus 26)
Why does God multiply punishments by sevens? I have no idea, (keep asking someone might know.)
The word for swear, make an oath, is the same in Hebrew as seven, 'shebuwa'.
So when God 'swears in his wrath', he also 'sevens in his wrath'.
In Daniel 9:11 we see that God swears an oath against apostate Israel, and also curses them:
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
The oath is a 7X punishment, as per Leviticus 26, the curse is a 4X punishment. So the total punishment is a 28X punishment.
Why is the curse a 4X punishment?
When the Jews had Jesus crucified, they knew they were killing an innocent man:
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
The penalty for killing the Lamb, taking an innocent life, is fourfold restitution:
2 Samuel 12:5-7
5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
Same as Zacchaeus, who told us that the penalty for taking anything from a man (e.g. his life) by false accusation, is fourfold restitution:
Luke 19:8
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
God punishes in multiples of 7. (as per Leviticus 26)
Why does God multiply punishments by sevens? I have no idea, (keep asking someone might know.)
The word for swear, make an oath, is the same in Hebrew as seven, 'shebuwa'.
So when God 'swears in his wrath', he also 'sevens in his wrath'.
In Daniel 9:11 we see that God swears an oath against apostate Israel, and also curses them:
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
The oath is a 7X punishment, as per Leviticus 26, the curse is a 4X punishment. So the total punishment is a 28X punishment.
Why is the curse a 4X punishment?
When the Jews had Jesus crucified, they knew they were killing an innocent man:
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
The penalty for killing the Lamb, taking an innocent life, is fourfold restitution:
2 Samuel 12:5-7
5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
Same as Zacchaeus, who told us that the penalty for taking anything from a man (e.g. his life) by false accusation, is fourfold restitution:
Luke 19:8
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
I will say, this is interesting. Twenty yrs ago I did a Bible study after reading Hosea. I think there is something very interesting about the early 2030s.
I am NOT hanging my hat on any "date". But a year, or a span of a couple of yrs does not constitute a DATE! The date means a specific DAY.
Anyway, getting back to Hosea.
Hosea 6New King James Version (NKJV)
A Call to Repentance
6 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
I read this Chapter shortly after reading in the Pslams and Peter, that a day is like a thousand yrs to the Lord.
If the 2 days spoken of in verse 2 doesn't equate to 2 thousand yrs, what else could it represent? When was Israel ever restored in 2, 24 hour days?
It also validates in my mind a LITERAL thousand year reign of Christ ON EARTH in the same verse.
So it was a while back, and I don't have my notes anymore, and moved on to the true mission of Christians, which is to spread His gospel in love, but after doing the math, based on 360 day yrs, I came up with 2030-32.
Please don't freak out people! I'm not saying it's established doctrine. Only that it wouldn't surprise me one bit if that were the time frame.
I am NOT hanging my hat on any "date". But a year, or a span of a couple of yrs does not constitute a DATE! The date means a specific DAY.
Anyway, getting back to Hosea.
Hosea 6New King James Version (NKJV)
A Call to Repentance
6 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
I read this Chapter shortly after reading in the Pslams and Peter, that a day is like a thousand yrs to the Lord.
If the 2 days spoken of in verse 2 doesn't equate to 2 thousand yrs, what else could it represent? When was Israel ever restored in 2, 24 hour days?
It also validates in my mind a LITERAL thousand year reign of Christ ON EARTH in the same verse.
So it was a while back, and I don't have my notes anymore, and moved on to the true mission of Christians, which is to spread His gospel in love, but after doing the math, based on 360 day yrs, I came up with 2030-32.
Please don't freak out people! I'm not saying it's established doctrine. Only that it wouldn't surprise me one bit if that were the time frame.
26 Then after the 62 weeks, the anointed one will be cut down (but not for himself). Then the people of the Coming Commander will destroy both the city and the Sanctuary. Its ending will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war, with desolations having been decreed.
27 He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.’”
the above is from daniel 9:26-27. Let us scrutinize
after 62 weeks this will happen;
1. annointed one cut of
2. city and sanctuary destroyed
3. then Desolation.
we know that the city was destroyed incl the sanctuary
there was desolation.
Now the question; when did the desolation finish?
2. If Israel is gathered again, will they be desolated again?
because it mention again in verse 27 destructive people will cause DESOLATION...????
27 He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.’”
the above is from daniel 9:26-27. Let us scrutinize
after 62 weeks this will happen;
1. annointed one cut of
2. city and sanctuary destroyed
3. then Desolation.
we know that the city was destroyed incl the sanctuary
there was desolation.
Now the question; when did the desolation finish?
2. If Israel is gathered again, will they be desolated again?
because it mention again in verse 27 destructive people will cause DESOLATION...????
KJV 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
NRSV 4 “Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[d]25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[e] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place[f]shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.”
How I read it
NRSV 4 “Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[d]25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[e] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. KJV 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and in their place[f]shall be an abomination that desolates, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
NRSV 4 “Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[d]25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[e] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place[f]shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.”
How I read it
NRSV 4 “Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[d]25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[e] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. KJV 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and in their place[f]shall be an abomination that desolates, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Last edited:
I am currently at the place in my studying where I am going to look into the Noka interpretation. He is apparently a...Japanese? historicist who came up with that general timeframe. I know nothing about him at all but that was going to be my next read. 
Might be a quick read if it turns out to be strange nonsense though.
Might be a quick read if it turns out to be strange nonsense though.
In reading the thread again, when I saw this post again, the same thought came to me as the first time I read it. You may not see what I saw or think what I say makes any sense with your post, but here goes.
Both times here is what came to my mind.
The verse that says (my paraphrase) - those of you who are wishing for the day of the Lord, you have no idea what you are doing in wishing for the day of the Lord to be here. It will be an awful and distressing day!
And in my mind at the same time were the verses that say things like...those who love His appearing and who hasten His coming.
And I starkly saw that the verses were of different timeframes. We should look with hope for His appearing but the previous verse says those who want the day of the Lord to come do not have any idea what they are wishing for. So they are different occasions. One is our gathering and the other is after our gathering.
That's what I saw both times I read your post. How the verses seem to war with one another unless you see they are two different things.
Both times here is what came to my mind.
The verse that says (my paraphrase) - those of you who are wishing for the day of the Lord, you have no idea what you are doing in wishing for the day of the Lord to be here. It will be an awful and distressing day!
And in my mind at the same time were the verses that say things like...those who love His appearing and who hasten His coming.
And I starkly saw that the verses were of different timeframes. We should look with hope for His appearing but the previous verse says those who want the day of the Lord to come do not have any idea what they are wishing for. So they are different occasions. One is our gathering and the other is after our gathering.
That's what I saw both times I read your post. How the verses seem to war with one another unless you see they are two different things.
There is no 'The Great Tribulation'.
This has been explained many times, but people stick to this fallacy
We are in the tribulation that began when Christ said it is finished ...the veil is rent.. ending the use of a outward temple metphor as that made with human hands.God is not serve with human hands as if he need something from the clay he is forming Christ in.He has no needs but satisfies all.
The "Great" will be on the last day when we receive of new promised incorruptible bodies and others who know not the grace of God go into nonexistence. (no spirit life)
That tribulation will be great to them but terrific to those who have received a new spirit it will be raised on the last day.
Those who have no new spirit, their flesh will return to the lifeless, spiritless dust it was form from. You could say food for the worms.
It helps us understand what the word "dead" really means. No means to work out some sort of suffering. Nothing to suffer with if it goes up in smoke of the judgement of God. .
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I really like this PennEd
'the former and latter rain'
Does this connect with the two wheat harvests, spring and summer?
There was four months between them....interesting, as there are four periods of 490 years.
In essence though, there seem to be two big harvests of the Jews, one before AD67, the other is coming then.
Regarding the dates, I think, having reread Daniel 9 in the other versions, that the desolation should start end of AD73, so AD74. Therefore ending AD 2033.
I've been given this date before but as 40 jubilees, (40 X 49), which seems just coincidental I think.
'the former and latter rain'
Does this connect with the two wheat harvests, spring and summer?
There was four months between them....interesting, as there are four periods of 490 years.
In essence though, there seem to be two big harvests of the Jews, one before AD67, the other is coming then.
Regarding the dates, I think, having reread Daniel 9 in the other versions, that the desolation should start end of AD73, so AD74. Therefore ending AD 2033.
I've been given this date before but as 40 jubilees, (40 X 49), which seems just coincidental I think.