Revelation 12 Sign: September 23,2017
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In Luke, it says he fell. It always sounded to me like he was distraught when they went out and began casting out demons and preaching Jesus had come. It sounds like he ran pell mell to see if he could stop it. So when Jesus said, I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven, to me it would be akin to us saying: he went like his PANTS were on fire!
Other than that, I didn't quite understand what you were asking with the other verses. I can be dense.
Other than that, I didn't quite understand what you were asking with the other verses. I can be dense.
G
"Just tell me one thing..."
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Where in this passage does it tell us very succinctly that each 'day' in the 70 weeks actually represents a 'year'? Or, are you saying that the 70 weeks referred to in this passage really only represent an actual literal 490 days?
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Where in this passage does it tell us very succinctly that each 'day' in the 70 weeks actually represents a 'year'? Or, are you saying that the 70 weeks referred to in this passage really only represent an actual literal 490 days?
G
In a sense, yes.
Consider:
The 'woman' in Revelation 12 is a representation of Israel - "from which" or "out of which" - the 'child' was born. In the most direct sense, it could not possibly be the [ N.T. ] 'Church' because it did not exist when Christ was born. The woman has to represent Israel.
Keep in mind that - during the ministry of Jesus - both Israel and the Church existed [ together ] during that time.
Move forward to the events circa 70 A.D.
In Revelation 12:6,14 - the 'woman' ( still has to be Israel ) flees into the wilderness.
Is it 'Israel' or the 'Church' that flees into the wilderness? What about those taken away captive?
The answer is 'both' -- Israel and the Church.
Those who escaped - together with those who were taken captive - still "represented" the nation of Israel. They were the 'remnant' of Israel. And, a portion of that group were also the 'remnant' of the Church.
There was certainly a "transistion" of sorts with regard to the significance of the Church over that of Israel during the 'times of the gentiles' - with the significance of Israel as a nation destined to "resurface" later in history. Yet, both still existed at that time in the 'distinctive' sense; albeit, Israel no longer existed in the 'operative' sense.
So then - in a sense - I suppose that the woman that fled into the wilderness could be considered to be "saved Israel"...
But, only in some sense that aligns with Romans -- not with specific regard to the circa 70 A.D. nation of Israel.
Israel as a nation will not be "saved" until the time as per Romans 11:26.
Consider:
The 'woman' in Revelation 12 is a representation of Israel - "from which" or "out of which" - the 'child' was born. In the most direct sense, it could not possibly be the [ N.T. ] 'Church' because it did not exist when Christ was born. The woman has to represent Israel.
Keep in mind that - during the ministry of Jesus - both Israel and the Church existed [ together ] during that time.
Move forward to the events circa 70 A.D.
In Revelation 12:6,14 - the 'woman' ( still has to be Israel ) flees into the wilderness.
Is it 'Israel' or the 'Church' that flees into the wilderness? What about those taken away captive?
The answer is 'both' -- Israel and the Church.
Those who escaped - together with those who were taken captive - still "represented" the nation of Israel. They were the 'remnant' of Israel. And, a portion of that group were also the 'remnant' of the Church.
There was certainly a "transistion" of sorts with regard to the significance of the Church over that of Israel during the 'times of the gentiles' - with the significance of Israel as a nation destined to "resurface" later in history. Yet, both still existed at that time in the 'distinctive' sense; albeit, Israel no longer existed in the 'operative' sense.
So then - in a sense - I suppose that the woman that fled into the wilderness could be considered to be "saved Israel"...
But, only in some sense that aligns with Romans -- not with specific regard to the circa 70 A.D. nation of Israel.
Israel as a nation will not be "saved" until the time as per Romans 11:26.
In Luke, it says he fell. It always sounded to me like he was distraught when they went out and began casting out demons and preaching Jesus had come. It sounds like he ran pell mell to see if he could stop it. So when Jesus said, I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven, to me it would be akin to us saying: he went like his PANTS were on fire!
Other than that, I didn't quite understand what you were asking with the other verses. I can be dense.
Other than that, I didn't quite understand what you were asking with the other verses. I can be dense.
lol, one set of the scriptures I gave pertain to Jesus and the other the devil,your right...
Hello JB! Forgive me for hijacking your post, but this is for GaryA:
First of all GaryA, it is 70 weeks of years. And the way that we can determine that it is speaking of 490 years opposed to 490 days or weeks is because of the information given within the scripture, which is divided up into three sections:
7 sevens = restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 sevens = At the end of which the Messiah was cut off, equaling 69 sevens
1 seven = The ruler establishes a seven year agreement with Israel
That said, at the end of the 69th seven, the Messiah was cut off, which is Christ crucified. From the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the Messiah being cut off would be 483 sevens. If we attempt to use 69 sevens as representing days or weeks and work backwards, there is no fulfillment of the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, as it was already rebuilt.
The only fulfillment that works is interpreting the 69 sevens as 69 weeks of years or 483 years. When we apply this interpretation, it takes us right to Nehemiah in 446 BC, where he requested of king Artaxeres to go and rebuild Jerusalem, which was in shambles because of the destruction as a result of the Babylonian exile. The issuing of the decree were the letters from king Artaxeres for passage through the area of the Trans-Euphrates and to cut down wood from the kings forest. Therefore, 69 weeks of years i.e. 69 sets of seven year periods, which is 483 years fits perfectly with the prophecy.
The bottom line is that, if we attempt to interpret the 70 sevens as representing days or weeks, then there is no fulfillment with either.
By the way, the 70th seven or last seven years, has not yet been fulfilled but will be in conjunction with the end of the age.
First of all GaryA, it is 70 weeks of years. And the way that we can determine that it is speaking of 490 years opposed to 490 days or weeks is because of the information given within the scripture, which is divided up into three sections:
7 sevens = restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 sevens = At the end of which the Messiah was cut off, equaling 69 sevens
1 seven = The ruler establishes a seven year agreement with Israel
That said, at the end of the 69th seven, the Messiah was cut off, which is Christ crucified. From the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the Messiah being cut off would be 483 sevens. If we attempt to use 69 sevens as representing days or weeks and work backwards, there is no fulfillment of the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, as it was already rebuilt.
The only fulfillment that works is interpreting the 69 sevens as 69 weeks of years or 483 years. When we apply this interpretation, it takes us right to Nehemiah in 446 BC, where he requested of king Artaxeres to go and rebuild Jerusalem, which was in shambles because of the destruction as a result of the Babylonian exile. The issuing of the decree were the letters from king Artaxeres for passage through the area of the Trans-Euphrates and to cut down wood from the kings forest. Therefore, 69 weeks of years i.e. 69 sets of seven year periods, which is 483 years fits perfectly with the prophecy.
The bottom line is that, if we attempt to interpret the 70 sevens as representing days or weeks, then there is no fulfillment with either.
By the way, the 70th seven or last seven years, has not yet been fulfilled but will be in conjunction with the end of the age.
G
I have been looking at the pertinent scriptures - and, have decided that I must have gotten my thoughts mixed up when I wrote the above and "misspoke" on the last paragraph.
"My apologies..."
The span of time of Revelation 12:6,14 definitely seems to align with the events circa 70 A.D. and its aftermath. I believe the 1260 days represent an actual 1260 days spanning ~ 70-73 A.D. - during the time that the Romans were "in hot pursuit" of Jews and Christians everywhere.
I believe what is described in Revelation 12:17, with specific regard to "the remnant of her seed", represents ( with regard to time frame ) the beginning of the persecution of Christians throughout the Dark Ages.
I believe that the beast of Revelation 13:1 comes into existance at / after that time.
I believe that the "forty and two months" of Revelation 13:5 is actually 1260 years. And, it was this reference that I believe I was thinking about when I wrote that last paragraph - mixing the "1260 days" of Revelation 12 with the "forty and two months" of Revelation 13.
"My apologies..."
The span of time of Revelation 12:6,14 definitely seems to align with the events circa 70 A.D. and its aftermath. I believe the 1260 days represent an actual 1260 days spanning ~ 70-73 A.D. - during the time that the Romans were "in hot pursuit" of Jews and Christians everywhere.
I believe what is described in Revelation 12:17, with specific regard to "the remnant of her seed", represents ( with regard to time frame ) the beginning of the persecution of Christians throughout the Dark Ages.
I believe that the beast of Revelation 13:1 comes into existance at / after that time.
I believe that the "forty and two months" of Revelation 13:5 is actually 1260 years. And, it was this reference that I believe I was thinking about when I wrote that last paragraph - mixing the "1260 days" of Revelation 12 with the "forty and two months" of Revelation 13.
The representation is not in respect to the flesh or any nation. God is no respecter of person. It represents an inward Jew born of the spirit just as it does to a Christian the new name he name His chaste virgin bride the church,
The woman represents the new creature the chaste virgin bride of Christ. Keeping in mind the parables of the virgins and the anticipated consummation of the wedding supper on the last day when we receive our new incorruptible bodies. (not male virgins)
She is made of of many lively stones that does make up the spiritual house of God the church. It would not make sense to represent a unbeliever , he uses other kind of creatures ,unclean animals to represent those who have no faith.
The tribe of Josef is not listed in the description of the bride in the book of Revelation like the tribe of Dan they are left out for certain purposes in respect to the gospel .. Josef represents the seed one (spiritual of Christ) called the generation of Christ by which all men are born again from above.
The same principle is found in both parables. One with Josef the other with his father Isaac.
It is most likely why even though the brothers believed not no faith out of envy Isaac observed the sign pointing to His chaste virgin bride the sign in Revelation 12.(not signs to seek after but observe.) Having experienced the use of the sign represented by types seen, 10 chapters earlier.
And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.Gen 37:10
Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.Gen 27:28
The bride of Christ, she is the segregate mother of us all . Just as Paul labored as in birth pains till Christ was formed in Timothy who is typified as his chaste virgin bride. The same applies to us who hold of the same gospel of the old testament saints.
What we are is not what we will be when receive our new incorruptible bodies as His bride the church..
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If you want a view on the end times
North Korea and nuclear war
Hurricans destroying whole communities
Earth quakes bringing havoc
Floods destroying communities
Hottest summers on record
Now there is a good list, which does match scripture.
Strange how dates are put on what is actually happening and is a real problem.
North Korea and nuclear war
Hurricans destroying whole communities
Earth quakes bringing havoc
Floods destroying communities
Hottest summers on record
Now there is a good list, which does match scripture.
Strange how dates are put on what is actually happening and is a real problem.
I suppose it is in that some see only one thing and another two. This is from Isaac Newton Part I, Chapter X: Of the Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks (Normalized Version) but only the first part speaking of the 70 weeks and then the 62. Not that I am in certain regard for Newton (he is/was a man as we are) but in that he as it seems took the same approach to the matter as the apostolic fathers(I'm not Catholic rather than the definition particular).
To me there are to two sets of things spoken of one is the Messiahs first coming and the other his second. This approach to Daniel I took after studying the Christian writings of the second century and noticing their approach was as if they saw some things completely fulfilled and others not which is why most today do not regard any of their writings as valid. I read Newtons afterwards and noticed that he also regarded those early writings and did not discount them also in his approach. After this is explained to Daniel in Daniel 12:6-8 he himself ask two things "how long and what shall be the end of these things" as if this was not near as clear to him as it is to any of us even today.