With Him? Against Us? Gathering? Scattering?

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#1
Jul 31, 2013
36,681
13,132
113
#1

Jesus says two things that may appear on the surface to be somewhat contradictory - obviously they are not - so can we sort this out together?

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

first, there's this:

“Master,” said John,
“we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,”
Jesus said,
“for whoever is not against you is for you.”
(Luke 9:49-50)
​

((this is also found in Mark 9:38))

then there's this:

"Whoever is not with me is against me,
and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
(Matthew 12:30)


​
((also found in Luke 11:23))


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
these are said to two different audiences, in two slightly different contexts, though the context of both is the casting out of demons.
in the first instance, He is speaking to the disciples, about people who were casting out demons in Christ's name, though the people were not among the disciples.
in the second instance, Jesus is answering the charge of the teachers of the law that He Himself was casting out demons by Satan.

how do you understand this?
how do you apply it?
shed light, please :)

thanks



 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#2
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#2
It depends upon what you consider a devil.

Could be that Jesus was telling his disciples that if someone is casting out devils then they were casting out a devil, themself, since it written in Matthew 7:22-23; "22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Yet in Mark 9, verses 18 the disciples were not able to cast out a dumb spirit; [17] And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; [18] And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

So is a person that lacks education a devil? "As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil." (Matthew 9:32) It is written in 1 John 3:8 that "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." Of course Jesus spoke to in parables, as written in Mark 4:11-12; [11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: [12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. Matt 12:27
​
But just as the evil can give good gifts to their children Jesus asks in Matthew 12:34, "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?"


 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#3
Jul 18, 2017
24,546
12,991
113
#3
posthuman said:
for whoever is not against you is for you.
Click to expand...

When we look at this contextually, Jesus and His disciples had both friends and enemies in Israel. The Lord also had many secret disciples, who feared the religious leaders but otherwise believed on Christ. The ones casting out devils in His name had not openly become disciples, but covertly they were not against Christ and His disciples, hence "for you". Whether or not we can apply this to Christianity today is questionable. Those who believe the Gospel and Bible truth do so openly. However there may be Catholics who are reluctant to leave their church but otherwise may be evangelical.

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Click to expand...
Once again context is critical. Here the Lord is speaking of those who were openly His enemies and accused Him of doing miracles through the power of the Devil. They were in fact blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The Lord was gathering souls to Himself and to salvation as the Shepherd of Israel, but these evil men were trying to drive them away and scatter the sheep of Israel through their enmity against Christ and His apostles. How do we apply this today? We can apply it to the apostate clergymen, theologians, and scholars who claim to be Christian but attack the Bible and attack Gospel truth at every opportunity. As a result they hinder souls from entering into the Kingdom of God, and are in reality enemies of Christ.

​




 
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J

joaniemarie

Senior Member
#4
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
#4
It seems with all the transitioning going on back then., a bunch of stuff was understandably getting confused. What with the Jews still following the law as a entrance to God while they still waited for the Messiah to come.

John the Baptist followers who had not yet even heard of the Holy Spirit. They were still preaching repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus (the kingdom of God come) had come and gone back to heaven and left the believers with a new spirit and the Holy Spirit here to be in them to be Teacher., Guide., seal of redemption.

Jesus explained what the Holy Spirit would be doing. He Inspires/indwells the believer of righteousness.,., convicting the world of sin.., John 16:8-12

 [SUP]8 [/SUP]And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]of sin, because they believe not on me;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more;

[SUP]11 [/SUP]of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.



They didn't have the finished Bible like we do nor the internet or even books. It took a loooong time to hear what the Spirit was saying to the churches. Major transitioning period is my observation.
 
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I

IAmWhatHeRepresentedInMe

Junior Member
#5
Sep 17, 2017
2
0
0
#5
In the first instance he is talking about human fellowship.

Don't reject someone who speaks in my name on account of him not being one of you. If he speaks in my name he is not against you, and if he is not against you he is with you.

In the second instance he is talking about the human-god relationship.

Whoever is not with me is against me,
and whoever does not gather with me scatters

Preliminarily, this should perhaps be understood as "whoever has an attitude of being not with me is against me, and whoever has an attitude of being someone who does not gather with me scatters."

Even if not, however, he's not talking here about humans and humans who both speak in his name; he's talking about idolatry.
 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#6
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#6
joaniemarie said:
John the Baptist followers who had not yet even heard of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. Luke 1:15

So why wouldn't the followers of John the Baptist know about the Holy Ghost?

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Luke 3:16

 
MessageOfTheCross

MessageOfTheCross

Senior Member
#7
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
113
#7
posthuman said:

Jesus says two things that may appear on the surface to be somewhat contradictory - obviously they are not - so can we sort this out together?

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

first, there's this:

“Master,” said John,
“we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,”
Jesus said,
“for whoever is not against you is for you.”
(Luke 9:49-50)
​

((this is also found in Mark 9:38))

then there's this:
"Whoever is not with me is against me,
and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
(Matthew 12:30)


​
((also found in Luke 11:23))


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
these are said to two different audiences, in two slightly different contexts, though the context of both is the casting out of demons.
in the first instance, He is speaking to the disciples, about people who were casting out demons in Christ's name, though the people were not among the disciples.
in the second instance, Jesus is answering the charge of the teachers of the law that He Himself was casting out demons by Satan.

how do you understand this?
how do you apply it?
shed light, please :)

thanks
Click to expand...
This is called the sin of sectarianism, which in essence means "The exclusion of all others, outside of a particular group." Even though John and some of the other Disciples did this thing out of ignorance, still, this problem greatly persists even unto this hour.

In fact, many Religious Denominations believe that if you are not associated with them, you are not saved, or else, at the best, a second-class Christian, as if there were such a thing. This is Satanic. No effort is to be made to hinder anyone from attempting to do the Work of God even if they disagree.
 
Last edited:
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#8
Jun 30, 2015
24,750
13,402
113
#8
posthuman said:

Jesus says two things that may appear on the surface to be somewhat contradictory - obviously they are not - so can we sort this out together?

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
(Luke 9:49-50)
​


(Matthew 12:30) ...

how do you understand this?
how do you apply it?
shed light, please :)
Click to expand...
I see two ways to apply or interpret these. First, to the disciples, that they (and we) need to be conscious about what we're doing... are we helping build the Kingdom or helping tear it down. Second, there is no middle ground; I hear this applied in the realm of apologetics, where nonbelievers will demand "common ground for discussion" when in fact what they want is for the believer to concede his or her position so that the unbeliever can dominate.

I recognize that neither view is a crisp interpretation of the literal words of Jesus though.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#9
#9
posthuman said:

Jesus says two things that may appear on the surface to be somewhat contradictory - obviously they are not - so can we sort this out together?

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

first, there's this:

“Master,” said John,
“we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,”
Jesus said,
“for whoever is not against you is for you.”
(Luke 9:49-50)
​

((this is also found in Mark 9:38))

then there's this:
"Whoever is not with me is against me,
and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
(Matthew 12:30)


​
((also found in Luke 11:23))


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
these are said to two different audiences, in two slightly different contexts, though the context of both is the casting out of demons.
in the first instance, He is speaking to the disciples, about people who were casting out demons in Christ's name, though the people were not among the disciples.
in the second instance, Jesus is answering the charge of the teachers of the law that He Himself was casting out demons by Satan.

how do you understand this?
how do you apply it?
shed light, please :)

thanks
Click to expand...
Oh!

Two thoughts:
1. I do understand you when you don't do math. (I feel slightly smarter now. lol)
2. Not much to add to it, after you explained it to me. :p
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#10
Sep 23, 2014
5,950
1,698
113
#10
Yes, together, is the key here, as in "you" and "me"...

And, whoever is not against you, is for you... if they are, essentially, and indeed, for me.


posthuman said:

Jesus says two things that may appear on the surface to be somewhat contradictory - obviously they are not - so can we sort this out together?


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

first, there's this:

“Master,” said John,
“we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,”
Jesus said,
“for whoever is not against you is for you.”
(Luke 9:49-50)
​

((this is also found in Mark 9:38))

then there's this:
"Whoever is not with me is against me,
and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
(Matthew 12:30)


​
((also found in Luke 11:23))


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
these are said to two different audiences, in two slightly different contexts, though the context of both is the casting out of demons.
in the first instance, He is speaking to the disciples, about people who were casting out demons in Christ's name, though the people were not among the disciples.
in the second instance, Jesus is answering the charge of the teachers of the law that He Himself was casting out demons by Satan.

how do you understand this?
how do you apply it?
shed light, please :)

thanks
Click to expand...
 
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