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Thread: Church an unknown mystery.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Church an unknown mystery.

    "Basic" dispensational theology is that the church was unknown in the scriptures - this idea is expressed by Dwight Pentecost in his book "Things to come" - Pentecost was a Distinguished Professor of Bible Exposition, Emeritus, at the Dallas Theological Seminary.

    This is an excerpt from his book in brown text:

    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory [Col. 1:24-27].

    In this passage the apostle Paul very clearly calls the divine program developed in the church a mystery, something which was not formerly revealed, and therefore unknown, but now is made known by God. With this teaching other Scripture is in agreement (Rom. 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:5-9).

    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 2547-2551). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.


    In the above he notes Rom 16:25-26 in his appeal to the church being an unrevealed mystery but it looks to me like he has ignored the full import of what Paul wrote:

    Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past

    Rom 16:26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

    In the above Paul is stating what is now manifested is according to "Scriptures of the prophets".

    The question is how can something according to Pentecost that "something which was not formerly revealed" be said according to Paul to be "by the Scriptures of the prophets"?

    1 Pet 1:19 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

    1 Pet 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

    1 Pet 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

    In the above Peter is affirming that prophets prophesied of the grace given to the church and the gospel message, so the dispensational claim of "unknown" by Dwight Pentecost is falsified.

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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    salvation of the gentiles was foreseen by isaiah u see

    Isaiah 49:6King James Version (KJV)

    6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    its not a mystery in my bible. but maybe after u are done translating the texas deceptus translation as u said, it will be a mystery

    maybe some seminaries will push it.
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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzungu256 View Post
    salvation of the gentiles was foreseen by isaiah u see

    Isaiah 49:6King James Version (KJV)

    6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
    He pushes that off into the "millennium" even though Paul uses Isa in defense of his ministry:

    Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.




    7. Gentile Nations and the Kingdom.…prophecy foresees the share Gentiles will have in Israel’s kingdom (cf. Isa. 11:10; 42:1, 6; 49:6, 22; chapters 60, 62, and 63)…Later revelation (Matt. 25:31-40) asserts the entrance of Gentiles into the kingdom by the authority of the King and as predetermined by the Father

    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5727-5729). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    He pushes that off into the "millennium" even though Paul uses Isa in defense of his ministry:

    Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.




    7. Gentile Nations and the Kingdom.…prophecy foresees the share Gentiles will have in Israel’s kingdom (cf. Isa. 11:10; 42:1, 6; 49:6, 22; chapters 60, 62, and 63)…Later revelation (Matt. 25:31-40) asserts the entrance of Gentiles into the kingdom by the authority of the King and as predetermined by the Father

    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5727-5729). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
    LOOL. so unprofessional u see. Paul quotes it in the 1st century applies it then but this guy knows better it seems. good u pointed it out i will never listen to anything from dwight pentecost, im not even a theologiann i didnt remember that verse in acts but i never imagined it means a millennial israel kingdom COME OONN

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzungu256 View Post
    LOOL. so unprofessional u see. Paul quotes it in the 1st century applies it then but this guy knows better it seems. good u pointed it out i will never listen to anything from dwight pentecost, im not even a theologiann i didnt remember that verse in acts but i never imagined it means a millennial israel kingdom COME OONN
    It gets worse mon - in the following he claims that John the Baptist failed:

    Dwight Pentecost in brown text:

    Some time before the Transfiguration, John the Baptist, who was in prison, sent two of his disciples to ask the Lord Jesus whether He was the Messiah or whether they were to look for another. Our Lord sent a message back to John drawing attention to His miraculous ministry as sufficient testimony that He was the One foretold by the prophets, and then He told the multitudes of John’s greatness, and that the Baptist was indeed the Messenger of whom Malachi spoke (Mal. 3:1). And then added: “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come” (Matt. 11:12, 14).

    What did He mean? He was telling them this: that if Israel had been ready and willing to receive Him then, He would have established the Kingdom which He offered them, and that in that event, John’s ministry would have been the fulfilment of the prophetic Elijah.

    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5639-5642). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

    Inasmuch as John could not have fulfilled the prophecies because Israel rejected the offered kingdom, it does not seem possible to assert that the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 has been fulfilled. The fact that John could have fulfilled it, even though he was not personally Elijah, seems to indicate that Elijah need not come personally to fulfill the prophecies.

    During the period preceding the second advent, and prior to the outpouring of judgments upon the earth, there will be a ministry by one in the spirit and power of Elijah, which will fulfill this prophecy.

    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5652-5655). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

    Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

    Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The above is quoted by an angel in regards to John, but ol' Dwight thinks nothing of throwing out John with the bath water:

    Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

    Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

    Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

    So either John came to to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children or he didn't, if he didn't then he failed.

    I think I'll take the angel's word over ol' Dwight's.
    Last edited by Locutus; September 21st, 2017 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    I don't believe this man's intent is good.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Dwight Pentecost in brown text:

    What did He mean? He was telling them this: that if Israel had been ready and willing to receive Him then, He would have established the Kingdom which He offered them, and that in that event, John’s ministry would have been the fulfilment of the prophetic Elijah.
    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5639-5642). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

    Another issue involved with Pentecost's theology is his claim that had the Jew's accepted him Jesus would have set up the kingdom and not gone to the cross which is the means of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles. But the fact is that the rejection was foreseen.

    Quite a contradiction for dispensational theology.
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Men chase the wind... not accepting that GOD's way His past finding out... you can not solve the Bible.. no you can recieve Truth if you believe....

    He might as well say if Eve had not been beguiled by the serpent then we would not here.. oh life is for learning GOD's Truth... the vessels carry us around.. growing and dying unless we believe the Truth.. Repent and Believe is to pass from death to life.. it is to accept GOD's Ultimate Authority and listen to those He Ordains.. which is the High Priest His Son our souls Bishop.. leading us back home to Heavenly Father.

    Grace and love through Christ to you all.

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    That's why I avoid anything and everything that DTS pushes.
    "There are two Christs in all of us who are saved."
    KJV1611

    "The Christ in me IS NOT the same Christ that's in someone who came to understand Christ a different way than I did."
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    "I don't have the same standard as you, I could care less what the originals say."
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Dwight Pentecost in brown text:

    What did He mean? He was telling them this: that if Israel had been ready and willing to receive Him then, He would have established the Kingdom which He offered them, and that in that event, John’s ministry would have been the fulfilment of the prophetic Elijah.
    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5639-5642). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

    Another issue involved with Pentecost's theology is his claim that had the Jew's accepted him Jesus would have set up the kingdom and not gone to the cross which is the means of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles. But the fact is that the rejection was foreseen.

    Quite a contradiction for dispensational theology.

    plan B?

    that's kinda shocking, isn't it? and (honest question, because i'm not too bright) isn't that what Paul addresses with the whole "it's not as though the Word of God has failed" part of Romans 9?
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    That's why I avoid anything and everything that DTS pushes.
    what is DTS? sounds like something id wanna avoid too u see.
    this guy dwight is far off.
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    u know the whole problem with dwight in malachi and tings is that he wont let the new testament interpret the old but insists on a wooden literal interpretation u see like the jews of jesus' day. same mistake.

    when they read "dreadeful day of the LORD" they dont think ad70 or anything like that, they always think "end of the world" thats what its all about.
    ive seen on youtube some guys even push isaiah 13 into the end of the world, when u put all that together u got a lot of stuff happening within a few years, some of it may even be contradictiory stuff......... its the apocalypse soup i call it.

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    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Another issue involved with Pentecost's theology is his claim that had the Jew's accepted him Jesus would have set up the kingdom and not gone to the cross which is the means of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles. But the fact is that the rejection was foreseen.

    Quite a contradiction for dispensational theology.
    And the dispies eat this stuff up as if Christ could have skipped over some things foretold in the OT and there would be no problem with that whatsoever.

    Is it any wonder Openness Theology has gained a foothold among this group?
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    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    Open Theism and Molinism, two inept theological camps, do err in this sense; God doesn't have an R&D department, He does all things perfectly.

    A god who can be fashioned by our own thoughts is no more a god than an image produced by our own hands. - Charles Spurgeon


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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    And the dispies eat this stuff up as if Christ could have skipped over some things foretold in the OT and there would be no problem with that whatsoever.

    Is it any wonder Openness Theology has gained a foothold among this group?
    i find it hypocritical that they accuse amillennial people of saying that ot prophecies wont be fulfilled but their own theology is pretty much saying that the entire death on the cross was just a "if they reject then plan b". whatever happened to lamb slain before the foundation of the world u see.

    another new thing i gotta google "openness theology" unless its the same as open theism. those guys are nuts u see there was one person on this forum who spoke for it. how can they be sure what God said is true if He can just change His mind like that contrary to malachi 3:6. then again with their theology maybe He just changed His mind about malachi 3:6 too loool!

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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzungu256 View Post
    i find it hypocritical that they accuse amillennial people of saying that ot prophecies wont be fulfilled but their own theology is pretty much saying that the entire death on the cross was just a "if they reject then plan b". whatever happened to lamb slain before the foundation of the world u see.

    another new thing i gotta google "openness theology" unless its the same as open theism. those guys are nuts u see there was one person on this forum who spoke for it. how can they be sure what God said is true if He can just change His mind like that contrary to malachi 3:6. then again with their theology maybe He just changed His mind about malachi 3:6 too loool!
    Many holes in their theology. The character of God is at stake in their theology as He could prophesy things to come, and then just not fulfill them if He so chooses after giving His Word it would be done. And they don't bat an eye over this prospect.

    Yes, Openness Theology and Open Theism are the same heresies, just differing in name. I said it this way on purpose so that those who have heard of the latter would see the former is the same thing.
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    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    Open Theism and Molinism, two inept theological camps, do err in this sense; God doesn't have an R&D department, He does all things perfectly.

    A god who can be fashioned by our own thoughts is no more a god than an image produced by our own hands. - Charles Spurgeon


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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    "Basic" dispensational theology is that the church was unknown in the scriptures - this idea is expressed by Dwight Pentecost in his book "Things to come" - Pentecost was a Distinguished Professor of Bible Exposition, Emeritus, at the Dallas Theological Seminary.

    This is an excerpt from his book in brown text:

    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory [Col. 1:24-27].

    In this passage the apostle Paul very clearly calls the divine program developed in the church a mystery, something which was not formerly revealed, and therefore unknown, but now is made known by God. With this teaching other Scripture is in agreement (Rom. 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:5-9).

    Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 2547-2551). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.


    In the above he notes Rom 16:25-26 in his appeal to the church being an unrevealed mystery but it looks to me like he has ignored the full import of what Paul wrote:

    Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past

    Rom 16:26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

    In the above Paul is stating what is now manifested is according to "Scriptures of the prophets".

    The question is how can something according to Pentecost that "something which was not formerly revealed" be said according to Paul to be "by the Scriptures of the prophets"?

    1 Pet 1:19 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

    1 Pet 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

    1 Pet 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

    In the above Peter is affirming that prophets prophesied of the grace given to the church and the gospel message, so the dispensational claim of "unknown" by Dwight Pentecost is falsified.
    A couple of things come to mind when reading this. Vanity, arrogance, something some people today call false pride, and probably a couple more psychological terms all come into play when it comes to correctly interpreting prophecies. there is a blindness that comes, or is "put upon" people, who are convinced they are saved in there apostasetic behaviors, and interpretations, ie talmud, and those who, by, whether it be due to a fact they are not merchants, tax collectors, devout members of the synagogue, such as scribes, lawyers, etc, "get left behind", and are therefore categorized....as being DAMNED, in the eyes of this "upper crust" of society. Seems, doesn't it, that certain behavior patterns don't change as "the band plays on." Time moves onwards! Automation, replaces slave labor, when the cries against abuse become rampant! Of course, there were noble and honorable slave owners, but, they don't sell papers! And, when it became apparent that abuse in the slave-trade, seemed so resistant to change for the better? Abolition, was deemed the only recourse!

    Well!...These ones, not to be denied their aristocracy status, mostly inherited, but, some also by less then honorable means, were made aware of this, then, the calls went out to "release the beast!" What this entails, is climbing up the tree of knowledge, whilst forsaking the good, all the while ignoring the evil, for the love of money! Yet, while thinking they are doing a tremendous service for mankind, are in fact, merely "creating" just a cheap imitation (the "world"), of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like!

    All this, and more all contribute to blindness of, and making void, the WORD of GOD! Therefore, making (their) interpretation/s of prophecy, when not, incorrectly defined, then, just ignored, in their books, er teachings and preachings, saying: "you don't have to understand!" "Trust us!" Or, "You're not going to be here!" And, for those who decry "This (tribulation) is not meant for us!"...Ya just don't understand.

    The definition of the word "Church", is "called out" ones. "Called out", from the "world", that is.

    "One worldism", or globalization, is nothing NEW, people.


    (Cutting through the chaff)

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzungu256 View Post
    what is DTS? sounds like something id wanna avoid too u see.
    this guy dwight is far off.
    Dallas Theological Seminary.
    "There are two Christs in all of us who are saved."
    KJV1611

    "The Christ in me IS NOT the same Christ that's in someone who came to understand Christ a different way than I did."
    KJV1611


    "I don't have the same standard as you, I could care less what the originals say."
    KJV1611

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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by NayborBear View Post
    A couple of things come to mind when reading this. Vanity, arrogance, something some people today call false pride, and probably a couple more psychological terms all come into play when it comes to correctly interpreting prophecies. there is a blindness that comes, or is "put upon" people, who are convinced they are saved in there apostasetic behaviors, and interpretations, ie talmud, and those who, by, whether it be due to a fact they are not merchants, tax collectors, devout members of the synagogue, such as scribes, lawyers, etc, "get left behind", and are therefore categorized....as being DAMNED, in the eyes of this "upper crust" of society. Seems, doesn't it, that certain behavior patterns don't change as "the band plays on." Time moves onwards! Automation, replaces slave labor, when the cries against abuse become rampant! Of course, there were noble and honorable slave owners, but, they don't sell papers! And, when it became apparent that abuse in the slave-trade, seemed so resistant to change for the better? Abolition, was deemed the only recourse!

    Well!...These ones, not to be denied their aristocracy status, mostly inherited, but, some also by less then honorable means, were made aware of this, then, the calls went out to "release the beast!" What this entails, is climbing up the tree of knowledge, whilst forsaking the good, all the while ignoring the evil, for the love of money! Yet, while thinking they are doing a tremendous service for mankind, are in fact, merely "creating" just a cheap imitation (the "world"), of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like!

    All this, and more all contribute to blindness of, and making void, the WORD of GOD! Therefore, making (their) interpretation/s of prophecy, when not, incorrectly defined, then, just ignored, in their books, er teachings and preachings, saying: "you don't have to understand!" "Trust us!" Or, "You're not going to be here!" And, for those who decry "This (tribulation) is not meant for us!"...Ya just don't understand.

    The definition of the word "Church", is "called out" ones. "Called out", from the "world", that is.

    "One worldism", or globalization, is nothing NEW, people.


    Oh my! They gonna' put you on ignore.

    Ac 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church an unknown mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by NayborBear View Post
    A couple of things come to mind when reading this. Vanity, arrogance, something some people today call false pride, and probably a couple more psychological terms all come into play when it comes to correctly interpreting prophecies. there is a blindness that comes, or is "put upon" people, who are convinced they are saved in there apostasetic behaviors, and interpretations, ie talmud, and those who, by, whether it be due to a fact they are not merchants, tax collectors, devout members of the synagogue, such as scribes, lawyers, etc, "get left behind", and are therefore categorized....as being DAMNED, in the eyes of this "upper crust" of society. Seems, doesn't it, that certain behavior patterns don't change as "the band plays on." Time moves onwards! Automation, replaces slave labor, when the cries against abuse become rampant! Of course, there were noble and honorable slave owners, but, they don't sell papers! And, when it became apparent that abuse in the slave-trade, seemed so resistant to change for the better? Abolition, was deemed the only recourse!
    Not quite sure where you are going with your post bear or what it has to do with the thread topic.

    "apostasetic" - is this the opposite of copacetic?

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