Luke 21:11-12 give a clue post trib

[J7]

So you believe Jesus prophecy about temple destruction 3 time? And desciple ask the same question 3 time?

to me 3 people Tell one story, like the story of How Jesus born, in the 4 gospel doesn't mean Jesus born 4 time, or about crusifixtion told 4 time, not because Jesus crucified 4 time but same story by 4 different people

I think most likely that Jesus spoke to a group (Luke), that in that group were James John Peter and Andrew, and they discussed what Jesus said, then later came back to him again and prompted him (Mark), and that then all the disciples discussed the matter at great length, and came to Jesus, this time with a clear understanding that the destruction of the Temple was linked somehow to his 2nd Coming.

In the questions, in Luke there is no mention of the 2nd Coming, in Mark the 4 disciples use the verb 'synteleio' which intimates that they understand Jesus's second coming is in view. But in Matthew they are quite explicit about the 2nd coming, as they add a whole new question.

 

[Jackson123]

I think most likely that Jesus spoke to a group (Luke), that in that group were James John Peter and Andrew, and they discussed what Jesus said, then later came back to him again and prompted him (Mark), and that then all the disciples discussed the matter at great length, and came to Jesus, this time with a clear understanding that the destruction of the Temple was linked somehow to his 2nd Coming.

In the questions, in Luke there is no mention of the 2nd Coming, in Mark the 4 disciples use the verb 'synteleio' which intimates that they understand Jesus's second coming is in view. But in Matthew they are quite explicit about the 2nd coming, as they add a whole new question.

so you believe 3 occasion talk abou the 2 different subject and Luke not talk about second coming?

seem to me Luke also talking about second coming. It show in verse 27

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[garee]

Luke 21

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

luke 11 is wrath of God.

Verse 12

but before all These ( before wrath of God) there is persecution (tribulation)

persecution is always happen since apostle time, why Jesus Said in verse 12 that there Will be persecution in the end time before Wrath of God preceding
His second coming?


I believe this is more severe persecution or great tribulation for christian

The wrath of God began to be revealed to moment he subjected this world to corruption. A dead body is the witness of men being under His wrath . It was the second death that is the focus.

He still revealing His wrath every time a person does die. Having not received the promise of the incorruptible.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Holding truth in unrighteousness is the evidence he has sent them as part of His wrath a strong delusion to be the lie.

 

[J7]

so you believe 3 occasion talk abou the 2 different subject and Luke not talk about second coming?

seem to me Luke also talking about second coming. It show in verse 27

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

In Luke the question asked was not about the 2nd Coming. They asked about the Temple.

7 [FONT=&quot]“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”[/FONT]

In Mark, the same:

4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Here the disciples use the word synteleio for fulfilled, now indicating that they understand that the Temple in some way relates to the 2nd coming, but there is no explicit question about Jesus's 2nd coming.

Only in Matthew do we get a question, (2 questions), specifically about the 2nd Coming.

[FONT=&quot]“when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and of the end of the age?”[/FONT]

 

[Jackson123]

The wrath of God began to be revealed to moment he subjected this world to corruption. A dead body is the witness of men being under His wrath . It was the second death that is the focus.

He still revealing His wrath every time a person does die. Having not received the promise of the incorruptible.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Holding truth in unrighteousness is the evidence he has sent them as part of His wrath a strong delusion to be the lie.

yep, but there is another special wrath in Luke 21, matt 24, revelation etc

 

[Jackson123]

In Luke the question asked was not about the 2nd Coming. They asked about the Temple.

7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

In Mark, the same:

4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Here the disciples use the word synteleio for fulfilled, now indicating that they understand that the Temple in some way relates to the 2nd coming, but there is no explicit question about Jesus's 2nd coming.

Only in Matthew do we get a question, (2 questions), specifically about the 2nd Coming.

“when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Yep, but I believe It is because Matt write more detail than both of them. Because the answere oN Luke 21:27 indicate that they talk about end time.


and mark 13:26 same indication

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

this verse tell that they are talking about end time, a second coming when Son of Man coming in the sky with great power and glory.

 

[Bogadile]

It begs the question entirely. Why would Jesus say this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled, if they were pushed 2000 years into the future?
Not to mention words like "when you shall see the abomination of desolation" and "pray that it does not happen on the sabbath"
The reason for that is that during that time the gates of the city were closed on the sabbath, which they are not today.
Another thing is that escaping to the mountains or wilderness in general today would not help much, due to the military technology we have available today.

Finland has mandatory military service, I am no general but let me assure you, fleeing to the mountains while surrounded by armies today would be quite a task.

 

[Jackson123]

It begs the question entirely. Why would Jesus say this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled, if they were pushed 2000 years into the future?
Not to mention words like "when you shall see the abomination of desolation" and "pray that it does not happen on the sabbath"
The reason for that is that during that time the gates of the city were closed on the sabbath, which they are not today.
Another thing is that escaping to the mountains or wilderness in general today would not help much, due to the military technology we have available today.

Finland has mandatory military service, I am no general but let me assure you, fleeing to the mountains while surrounded by armies today would be quite a task.

seem to me Jesus answered 2 question.

1. Destruction of the temple

2. Second coming or the end of the world.

the second question conclude the end of the world. It is not happen yet AS we still see the world now

 

[J7]

In Luke there is no question about his second coming, only about the destruction of the Temple, and the duration of the ruin.

 

[Jackson123]

In Luke there is no question about his second coming, only about the destruction of the Temple, and the duration of the ruin.

.

I believe It is because Luke not wrote AS detail AS Matt


Luke 21

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

this verse tell, that Jesus talking about end time, not destruction of the temple, so I believe in Luke 21 start verse 5, Jesus talking about 2 subject, temple destruction and end time.

 

[heartofdavid]

Well, Noah and the seven others went through God's wrath, protected by the ark, as His wrath was poured out on the rest of humanity.

Israel was protected by God as He was executing judgment, pouring out His wrath, upon Egypt.

God knows how to protect His ppl even as He is pouring out His wrath upon the wicked.

In Noah's example pretrib has a 5 to one edge as far as fitment. Actually a 5 to zero edge.

1) the entire segment is prejudgment

2) Noah is lifted up because of or ordained by the judgement waters. So we see Noah in the ark ( a type of heaven),high above the earth. DURING THE "TRIBULATION"

3) NOAH does not do a u turn,as post trib adherents have made up doctrinally

4) Noah returns Post trib,with his family.

5) Noah is not gathered up post trib/flood.

Noah is 100% pretrib dynamic.

 

[Jackson123]

In Noah's example pretrib has a 5 to one edge as far as fitment. Actually a 5 to zero edge.

1) the entire segment is prejudgment

2) Noah is lifted up because of or ordained by the judgement waters. So we see Noah in the ark ( a type of heaven),high above the earth. DURING THE "TRIBULATION"

3) NOAH does not do a u turn,as post trib adherents have made up doctrinally

4) Noah returns Post trib,with his family.

5) Noah is not gathered up post trib/flood.

Noah is 100% pretrib dynamic.

to me there is a different between wrath of God and tribulation

seem to me tribulation is a persecution to Christian from non Christian, like what happen to Stephen.

wrath of God is punishment come from the Lord.

Noah float is a wrath of God, not a Stephen persecution.

I believe rapture happen after persecution but before wrath

luke 21


11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

12 but before These (before wrath describe oN verse 11) ....and persecute you(tribulation)

 

[J7]

.

I believe It is because Luke not wrote AS detail AS Matt


Luke 21

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

this verse tell, that Jesus talking about end time, not destruction of the temple, so I believe in Luke 21 start verse 5, Jesus talking about 2 subject, temple destruction and end time.

So Luke was a bit sloppy and omitted some details? Do you actually believe the Bible to be spirit breathed, inspired by God himself?

When you argue like this you are really second guessing Scripture itself. To me this is simply not a valid stance.

 

[garee]

I think most likely that Jesus spoke to a group (Luke), that in that group were James John Peter and Andrew, and they discussed what Jesus said, then later came back to him again and prompted him (Mark), and that then all the disciples discussed the matter at great length, and came to Jesus, this time with a clear understanding that the destruction of the Temple was linked somehow to his 2nd Coming.

In the questions, in Luke there is no mention of the 2nd Coming, in Mark the 4 disciples use the verb 'synteleio' which intimates that they understand Jesus's second coming is in view. But in Matthew they are quite explicit about the 2nd coming, as they add a whole new question.

The time of refomation provided that time .the temple as that seen worked as a shadow of the true temple not seen.(Christ)
There is no sign that would have us mend the rent veil and look for a second coming of that seen. The second coming is the end of the world the second and final resurrection. It as that seen served it porpose to represent that not seen. We walk by faith.


Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 

[J7]

The point is that Luke wrote what he wrote, and we take it as fact.

If you want to start throwing out bits of the Bible which do not line up for you, then the sky is the limit.

Invalid.

The questions and answers in Luke and Mark are about the Temple, its destruction and lying in ruins, as simple as that.

Why on earth would Jesus try and confuse the disciples by not answering the questions they asked.? Makes no sense.

Invalid.

 

[GaryA]

If you pay attention to the extreme similarity of all three accounts, you should recognize that there is no reasonable way to determine that they are anything other than three accounts of the same event. There is no way that Jesus recited the same thing ( or, even, nearly the same thing ) two or three times on the same day. That just doesn't make any sense at all. The three accounts do not have to be verbatim copies of each other for them to be determined to be three accounts of the same event.

"I'm sorry, but the idea that the Olivet Discourse is actually more than one event is simply absurd..."

 

[GaryA]

The Olivet Discourse prophecy covers a span of time that is ~2000 years long. It includes the events circa 70 A.D., but is not limited to only those events.

 

[J7]

If you pay attention to the extreme similarity of all three accounts, you should recognize that there is no reasonable way to determine that they are anything other than three accounts of the same event. There is no way that Jesus recited the same thing ( or, even, nearly the same thing ) two or three times on the same day. That just doesn't make any sense at all. The three accounts do not have to be verbatim copies of each other for them to be determined to be three accounts of the same event.

"I'm sorry, but the idea that the Olivet Discourse is actually more than one event is simply absurd..."

Why absurd? Luke describes events that take place exclusively on the Temple Mount, Mark and Matthew describe events that take place also on the Mount of Olives.

Personally, I find your proposition, that Luke has (or Matthew and Mark have) got his facts wrong is absurd to my way of thinking. In this case all of the Gospels can be viewed as historically inaccurate.

 

[J7]

There is no way that Jesus recited the same thing ( or, even, nearly the same thing ) two or three times on the same day.

This is just wild supposition.

What do you expect, that Jesus would post a Youtube video?

There is no reason NOT to suppose that Jesus would repeat a very important message multiple times.

 

[GaryA]

Why absurd? Luke describes events that take place exclusively on the Temple Mount, Mark and Matthew describe events that take place also on the Mount of Olives.

I believe you are making an incorrect assumption about where the discourse takes place. There is only one discourse, and it takes place on the Mount of Olives. That is why it is called the Olivet Discourse. Just because Luke does not specifically mention the mount of olives, does not mean that the event described in Luke occurred elsewhere.

I refer you to my thoughts already expressed on that:

If you pay attention to the extreme similarity of all three accounts, you should recognize that there is no reasonable way to determine that they are anything other than three accounts of the same event. There is no way that Jesus recited the same thing ( or, even, nearly the same thing ) two or three times on the same day. That just doesn't make any sense at all. The three accounts do not have to be verbatim copies of each other for them to be determined to be three accounts of the same event.

Personally, I find your proposition, that Luke has (or Matthew and Mark have) got his facts wrong is absurd to my way of thinking. In this case all of the Gospels can be viewed as historically inaccurate.

I have made no such proposition. None of the writers have their facts wrong.