Luke 21:11-12 give a clue post trib

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#1
Luke 21

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

luke 11 is wrath of God.

Verse 12

but before all These ( before wrath of God) there is persecution (tribulation)

persecution is always happen since apostle time, why Jesus Said in verse 12 that there Will be persecution in the end time before Wrath of God preceding
His second coming?


I believe this is more severe persecution or great tribulation for christian

 
Last edited:
Dec 28, 2016
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#2
Well, Noah and the seven others went through God's wrath, protected by the ark, as His wrath was poured out on the rest of humanity.

Israel was protected by God as He was executing judgment, pouring out His wrath, upon Egypt.

God knows how to protect His ppl even as He is pouring out His wrath upon the wicked.
 

Jackson123

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#3
Well, Noah and the seven others went through God's wrath, protected by the ark, as His wrath was poured out on the rest of humanity.

Israel was protected by God as He was executing judgment, pouring out His wrath, upon Egypt.

God knows how to protect His ppl even as He is pouring out His wrath upon the wicked.
yep, but God not protect Stephen from persecution, and I believe God let persecution happen to Christian AS mention in verse 12 and I believe that is great tribulation, before wrath and rapture.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#4
yep, but God not protect Stephen from persecution, and I believe God let persecution happen to Christian AS mention in verse 12 and I believe that is great tribulation, before wrath and rapture.
Yes. But God will never pour out His wrath upon the objects(vessels) of mercy. The objects(vessels) of wrath, that's another matter altogether.
 

J7

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#5
There are at least three great tribulations Jackson. The idea of one "Great Tribulation" is at best the result of uninformed thinking, at worst a Satanic deception foisted on the Church by some Catholic necromancers. The American Churches have swallowed this hook line and sinker, which is one of the main reasons there is so much false teaching on the site.


The famine of Egypt in Joseph's time is described as megas thlipsis, i.e Great Tribulation,

Acts 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.

Then there is the great tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem, spoken of by Jesus in the Temple Prophecy, and finally there are the great tribulations mentioned in Revelation.

Luke 21

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

luke 11 is wrath of God.

Verse 12

but before all These ( before wrath of God) there is persecution (tribulation)

persecution is always happen since apostle time, why Jesus Said in verse 12 that there Will be persecution in the end time before Wrath of God preceding
His second coming?


I believe this is more severe persecution or great tribulation for christian

 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#6
There are at least three great tribulations Jackson. The idea of one "Great Tribulation" is at best the result of uninformed thinking, at worst a Satanic deception foisted on the Church by some Catholic necromancers. The American Churches have swallowed this hook line and sinker, which is one of the main reasons there is so much false teaching on the site.


The famine of Egypt in Joseph's time is described as megas thlipsis, i.e Great Tribulation,

Acts 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.

Then there is the great tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem, spoken of by Jesus in the Temple Prophecy, and finally there are the great tribulations mentioned in Revelation.
so do you think persecution in verse 12 same AS persecution in revelation?
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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#7
The persecution (suffering) in verse 12 is this:

Acts 8
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#8
Yes. But God will never pour out His wrath upon the objects(vessels) of mercy. The objects(vessels) of wrath, that's another matter altogether.
Yep, so I believe, the order is great tribulation, rapture and finally wrath of God.

as indicate in verse 12. Before all These (before verse 11) they Will lay hand oN you and persecute you
 

J7

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#9
The Great Tribulation of Judea and Jerusalem from AD 67-73 was the destruction of apostate Jews; so Jews and proselytes. It was mainly Jews, but also Greeks and other proselytes. I doubt very much there were proselytes from every tribe and nation...

what do you think?

It is strange how the elder asks a rhetorical question of John though.

Revelation 7 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 

J7

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#10
Curiously though, it is Judah who Jacob prophesies will wash his robes

Genesis 49 11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#11
The persecution (suffering) in verse 12 is this:

Acts 8
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
So you do not believe shortly before second coming there Will be severe persecution?
if we read to verse 27, Jesus is talking about second coming
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#12
The Great Tribulation of Judea and Jerusalem from AD 67-73 was the destruction of apostate Jews; so Jews and proselytes. It was mainly Jews, but also Greeks and other proselytes. I doubt very much there were proselytes from every tribe and nation...

what do you think?

It is strange how the elder asks a rhetorical question of John though.

Revelation 7 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
To my knowledge AD 70 is destruction of the temple, It is not the same AS persecution before second coming in Luke 21 :12, because in Luke 21 Jesus talk to Christian, AD 70 more like destruction of the temple, I do not know If they persecute Christian in that war. I believe that war targeting teritory not religion.

Rev 7:14 I believe there are Christian that out of 7 years tribulation, wash by blood of the lamb is Christian identity
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#13
Curiously though, it is Judah who Jacob prophesies will wash his robes

Genesis 49 11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
Seem to me this verse is not of rev 7:14. Rev 7 Said blood of the lamb, that verse Said wine and blood of grape.

I believe wine is blood of grape. And blood of the lamb is blood of Jesus oN calvary to wash the sin of the world, and It is Christian identity
 

J7

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#14
So you do not believe shortly before second coming there Will be severe persecution?
if we read to verse 27, Jesus is talking about second coming
No.

There is nothing in Verses 25-27 about persecution, just disturbances in the natural world. Up to verse 23 is about 1st century Judea and the Church
 

J7

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#15
To my knowledge AD 70 is destruction of the temple, It is not the same AS persecution before second coming in Luke 21 :12, because in Luke 21 Jesus talk to Christian, AD 70 more like destruction of the temple, I do not know If they persecute Christian in that war. I believe that war targeting teritory not religion.

Rev 7:14 I believe there are Christian that out of 7 years tribulation, wash by blood of the lamb is Christian identity
Luke 21 is addressed to the listeners there: disciples and people outside the Temple.

The destruction of Judea and Jerusalem from AD67-73 is the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week, i.e. a judgement of God on Apostate Jews.

No it did not affect Christians, as the Church was removed from Jerusalem and hidden, (throughout Judea).
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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#16
No.

There is nothing in Verses 25-27 about persecution, just disturbances in the natural world. Up to verse 23 is about 1st century Judea and the Church
in my opinion, from verse 5 to 36, Jesus tell to his desciple what Will happen shortly after His ascent to heaven to his second coming, the order is, persecution, It always happen, temple destruction at AD 70, war etc, wrath of God, but before wrath, great persecution, than second coming.
 

J7

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#17
The issue is not Jesus's second coming though, it is the destruction of the Temple.

Jesus is talking about events in their lifetimes.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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#18
Luke 21 is addressed to the listeners there: disciples and people outside the Temple.

The destruction of Judea and Jerusalem from AD67-73 is the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week, i.e. a judgement of God on Apostate Jews.

No it did not affect Christians, as the Church was removed from Jerusalem and hidden, (throughout Judea).
If we compare Luke 21 and matt 24 we know that Jesus privately talk to His disceple not to public. First Jesus prophecy about temple destruction in verse 2,

Then privatly desciple ask 2 question

1. When the temple destruction happen in response to His prophecy

2. They also ask the sign of the end of the world.( verse 2)

seem to me Jesus ignore to answere when the temple destruction, but he answere the sign of the second coming


Matt
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
 

J7

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#19
You are assuming all three accounts are of the same event.

The fact is that Luke's account takes place at the Temple, Matthew's and Mark's remove to the Mount Of Olives.

On closer inspection, it appears to be at least two, if not three, separate events being recounted.

In Mark and Luke, there is no question about the end of the World.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#20
You are assuming all three accounts are of the same event.

The fact is that Luke's account takes place at the Temple, Matthew's and Mark's remove to the Mount Of Olives.

On closer inspection, it appears to be at least two, if not three, separate events being recounted.

In Mark and Luke, there is no question about the end of the World.
So you believe Jesus prophecy about temple destruction 3 time? And desciple ask the same question 3 time?

to me 3 people Tell one story, like the story of How Jesus born, in the 4 gospel doesn't mean Jesus born 4 time, or about crusifixtion told 4 time, not because Jesus crucified 4 time but same story by 4 different people