Applying human logic to spiritual things

[Nehemiah6]

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isaiah 55:8

One of the first things we discover when we read the Bible is that applying human logic to spiritual things is an exercise in futility.

Take the example of creation – human logic says nothing can be created out of nothing. But the Bible says that God created the universe out of nothing (Latin ex nihio). He literally spoke the worlds into existence.

Take the example of Eve having a dialogue with the Devil – human logic says that it is impossible for a serpent to have human conversation. But the Bible says that this “Old Serpent” not only had a conversation, but succeeded in deceiving Eve.

Take the example of Abel’s blood crying out to God for justice. Human logic says that blood cannot speak or say anything. But God says otherwise, and that innocent blood was avenged.

One could multiply these examples a thousand times, and one would discover that everything in Scripture defies human logic. The supreme example is the death of Christ on the Cross. Human logic says that it is impossible for one man to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world. But the Holy Spirit says that Christ was made the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Human logic says that it is impossible for blood to literally cleanse the defilement and the guilt of sin from within the human soul. But Scripture says that we are washed in the blood of the Lamb, and therefore we are cleansed from all our sins and guilt when we turn to Christ for salvation. Not only that but we -- the Church -- have been purchased with the blood of God! (Acts 20:28)

The lesson from all of this is that unless a person has the indwelling Holy Spirit, the things of God are “foolishness” to him. By the same token, if we are to understand spiritual things, we must set aside human logic and by simple faith believe what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

 

[Dino246]

I understand the point you're making, but I take issue with your use of the term, "logic". The examples you have given actually have nothing to do with logic per se, in the sense of sound reasoning. Logic doesn't deal directly with matters such as these.

Where investigators such as scientists allow unbiblical presuppositions to guide their investigation, they will probably come up with conclusions like those you've given. Where they allow the evidence to guide them and do their best to acknowledge their worldviews, their inquiry may lead them to believe such things are, in fact, quite possible.

God has given us the capacity to reason, to think rationally. Over the centuries, thinkers have discovered what we now call rules of logic, which define and enable sound thinking and identify unsound or invalid thinking. None of the examples you cited violate rules of logic, only the conclusions of people who have rejected a priori the possibility of a such things.

 

[BenFTW]

Faith can be reasonable, and not illogical, and the basis for such is in whom we trust. I've heard it said that God won't tell you to do something you can't, but this isn't always the case. When we are weak, He is strong. He may tell you to lift a car and in mind this may seem unreasonable, even unfathomable, yet Who has commanded you? None other than God, Himself, creator of Heaven and Earth. The one who gave Samson his strength, who gave David the victory against Goliath, and who defeated death through Jesus Christ and by His power. All things fall under His subjection. This being the case, faith in God is reasonable.

I understand what you are saying, however. Oftentimes there is a paradox. In the natural it just doesn't make sense to give bountifully and to then receive bountifully. The naturalistic mind says that if I have five apples and give away three, I have subtracted from my possessions. Yet what is the spiritual law, if you will, here? Give and you shall receive. Even in Proverbs it speaks of helping the poor is like lending to the Lord, and He shall repay you. Mathematically we have subtracted from our total, yet because of God we have actually increased.

Truth can be paradoxical, and yet reasonable. Faith too reasonable because we know the truth. We know God, in whom we trust.

 

[bluto]

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isaiah 55:8

One of the first things we discover when we read the Bible is that applying human logic to spiritual things is an exercise in futility.

Take the example of creation – human logic says nothing can be created out of nothing. But the Bible says that God created the universe out of nothing (Latin ex nihio). He literally spoke the worlds into existence.

Take the example of Eve having a dialogue with the Devil – human logic says that it is impossible for a serpent to have human conversation. But the Bible says that this “Old Serpent” not only had a conversation, but succeeded in deceiving Eve.

Take the example of Abel’s blood crying out to God for justice. Human logic says that blood cannot speak or say anything. But God says otherwise, and that innocent blood was avenged.

One could multiply these examples a thousand times, and one would discover that everything in Scripture defies human logic. The supreme example is the death of Christ on the Cross. Human logic says that it is impossible for one man to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world. But the Holy Spirit says that Christ was made the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Human logic says that it is impossible for blood to literally cleanse the defilement and the guilt of sin from within the human soul. But Scripture says that we are washed in the blood of the Lamb, and therefore we are cleansed from all our sins and guilt when we turn to Christ for salvation. Not only that but we -- the Church -- have been purchased with the blood of God! (Acts 20:28)

The lesson from all of this is that unless a person has the indwelling Holy Spirit, the things of God are “foolishness” to him. By the same token, if we are to understand spiritual things, we must set aside human logic and by simple faith believe what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

I agree with dino in that I understand what your saying but your taking it to far or should I say to literal. For example, "Take the example of Abel’s blood crying out to God for justice." This is a Jewish idiom which means that his death has meaning and needs to be addressed. And btw, God is "NEVER" illogical but at times He is "a-logical" which means He goes beyond logic.

And of course the unsaved do not understand the things of God but that has not so much to do with "logic," it has to do with sin because they are not born again.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[unobtrusive]

I understand the point you're making, but I take issue with your use of the term, "logic". The examples you have given actually have nothing to do with logic per se, in the sense of sound reasoning. Logic doesn't deal directly with matters such as these.

Where investigators such as scientists allow unbiblical presuppositions to guide their investigation, they will probably come up with conclusions like those you've given. Where they allow the evidence to guide them and do their best to acknowledge their worldviews, their inquiry may lead them to believe such things are, in fact, quite possible.

God has given us the capacity to reason, to think rationally. Over the centuries, thinkers have discovered what we now call rules of logic, which define and enable sound thinking and identify unsound or invalid thinking. None of the examples you cited violate rules of logic, only the conclusions of people who have rejected a priori the possibility of a such things.

Your expose` is impressive. So let's address illogical spiritual truths. According to a natural wind velocity, how could Israel cross the Red Sea without being annihilated due to the wind? They could literally see the sea parted with walls of water on each side. How could Jonah be one day's journey on foot from Ninevah after being regurgitated by the big fish when the Mediterranean Sea is more than 400 miles away? God could turn this earth inside out within 1 second, and we would never be able to logically comprehend how it was done. Yet, the logic that we were created with can comprehend faith, which by human standards is illogical. Does this sound logical to you, or is it out of the spectrum of human understanding?

 

[Dino246]

Your expose` is impressive. So let's address illogical spiritual truths. According to a natural wind velocity, how could Israel cross the Red Sea without being annihilated due to the wind? They could literally see the sea parted with walls of water on each side. How could Jonah be one day's journey on foot from Ninevah after being regurgitated by the big fish when the Mediterranean Sea is more than 400 miles away? God could turn this earth inside out within 1 second, and we would never be able to logically comprehend how it was done. Yet, the logic that we were created with can comprehend faith, which by human standards is illogical. Does this sound logical to you, or is it out of the spectrum of human understanding?

The so-called 'laws of logic' don't conflict (for me, at least!) with the truth that God is bigger than His creation, and that He is quite capable of causing events that defy our understanding of physics, geography, chemistry, etc. Where the term "illogical" is used to mean, "beyond scientific investigation" or "apparently contradictory to established scientific understanding" then what you've said makes sense. Where it is used to mean, "in conflict with principles of sound reasoning" then we have to disagree.

The term, "logic" has a colloquial meaning, which both you and Nehemiah6 seem to be employing, and a more strict technical meaning, used in philosophy, debate, and analysis of arguments. I'm simply distinguishing between the two, lest readers conclude that principles of sound reasoning are contrary to revealed scriptural truth, when in fact they aren't.

 

[Zmouth]

Take the example of creation – human logic says nothing can be created out of nothing. But the Bible says that God created the universe out of nothing (Latin ex nihio). He literally spoke the worlds into existence.

It is not written in the scriptures that the universe was created out of nothing.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Neither does it state that God literally spoke the world into existence. It wasn't until visible white light that the scriptures reflect that "God" spoke.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1

Since the waters that covered the face of the earth were frozen in Genesis 1:2, which is a verifiable fact since the laws of nature were set from the beginning which are the same as they are today. Since the Earth did not have an atmosphere until the LORD brought a cloud over the earth like a garment all you have to do is learn about what happens to water when exposed to space. FYI

Or you can believe what is written in the scriptures of Job, "The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen."

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12

 

[unobtrusive]

The so-called 'laws of logic' don't conflict (for me, at least!) with the truth that God is bigger than His creation, and that He is quite capable of causing events that defy our understanding of physics, geography, chemistry, etc. Where the term "illogical" is used to mean, "beyond scientific investigation" or "apparently contradictory to established scientific understanding" then what you've said makes sense. Where it is used to mean, "in conflict with principles of sound reasoning" then we have to disagree.

The term, "logic" has a colloquial meaning, which both you and Nehemiah6 seem to be employing, and a more strict technical meaning, used in philosophy, debate, and analysis of arguments. I'm simply distinguishing between the two, lest readers conclude that principles of sound reasoning are contrary to revealed scriptural truth, when in fact they aren't.

The Bible was established by God for the minds that He placed in us. Common sense is what we were created with. All other things that we are deprived of, because of sin, can be retrieved by willingly receiving those principles that seem illogical to the common carnal mind, but really are not. Faith is the difference between logical carnality, and logical spiritual belief in Christ Jesus. Then the difference is not strictly mental, it vibrates the "soul" into deciphering/discerning the truth that is beyond the natural, original 5 senses. Call this logical philosophical principles beyond the norm.

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" (Ephesians 2:6)

 

[Zmouth]

Yet, the logic that we were created with can comprehend faith, which by human standards is illogical. Does this sound logical to you, or is it out of the spectrum of human understanding?

Not really, faith is believing at all things are possible, until you learn why it couldn't be true.

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 1 Cor 13:7

That is the difference between believing an having faith, we are not to have faith in all things. However, if a person summarily believes something is not possible without having any reason or substance to their belief, then they also will summarily believe something is true having no substance or reason for the hope they have that it is true.

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. Mark 9:23

Just because one believes something might be true, the works of faith is to search and make inquiry to determine that which they don't know is true or not.

Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; Deut 13:14

Which is followed by the other steps outlined by the scriptures until one can prove the thing is true or false.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thess 5:21

You can't hold fast to something that has no substance, thus, faith is the substance of thing(s) hoped for, or rather the reason one believes it is true. Then you can began to sanctify the LORD in your heart.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15

 

[7seasrekeyed]

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isaiah 55:8

One of the first things we discover when we read the Bible is that applying human logic to spiritual things is an exercise in futility.

Take the example of creation – human logic says nothing can be created out of nothing. But the Bible says that God created the universe out of nothing (Latin ex nihio). He literally spoke the worlds into existence.

Take the example of Eve having a dialogue with the Devil – human logic says that it is impossible for a serpent to have human conversation. But the Bible says that this “Old Serpent” not only had a conversation, but succeeded in deceiving Eve.

Take the example of Abel’s blood crying out to God for justice. Human logic says that blood cannot speak or say anything. But God says otherwise, and that innocent blood was avenged.

One could multiply these examples a thousand times, and one would discover that everything in Scripture defies human logic. The supreme example is the death of Christ on the Cross. Human logic says that it is impossible for one man to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world. But the Holy Spirit says that Christ was made the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Human logic says that it is impossible for blood to literally cleanse the defilement and the guilt of sin from within the human soul. But Scripture says that we are washed in the blood of the Lamb, and therefore we are cleansed from all our sins and guilt when we turn to Christ for salvation. Not only that but we -- the Church -- have been purchased with the blood of God! (Acts 20:28)

The lesson from all of this is that unless a person has the indwelling Holy Spirit, the things of God are “foolishness” to him. By the same token, if we are to understand spiritual things, we must set aside human logic and by simple faith believe what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

that verse has given me comfort more than once and I think it's beautiful

it seems something of how God thinks rubs off on you the more you get to know Him and I think on this earth there will always be times He seems unknowable and maybe even that is a part of who He is...although one day we will know even as we are known

I like the mystery.

as an aside, when Cain killed Abel, God said to him that his brother's blood was crying out to Him (God)

10The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Genesis 4

this is total conjecture on my part, but maybe that is the dna? seems life is in the blood...Lev 17:14

because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I understand the point you're making, but I take issue with your use of the term, "logic". The examples you have given actually have nothing to do with logic per se, in the sense of sound reasoning. Logic doesn't deal directly with matters such as these.

Well that is exactly my point. Here is one definition of logic -- the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

Well the fact of the matter is, these principles of "reasoning" can be applied to everything other than the supernatural, and everything the the Bible is connected to God, hence connected to the supernatural. Therefore human logic and reason cannot comprehend the things of the Spirit.

 

[Dino246]

Well that is exactly my point. Here is one definition of logic -- the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

Well the fact of the matter is, these principles of "reasoning" can be applied to everything other than the supernatural, and everything the the Bible is connected to God, hence connected to the supernatural. Therefore human logic and reason cannot comprehend the things of the Spirit.

"Well the fact of the matter" ... is an idiom used to browbeat those with whom you disagree. This is not a matter of fact, as it is not stated as such anywhere in Scripture. Principles of reasoning can be applied to biblical truth as much as to any other branch of knowledge. There may be some things discussed in Scripture to which laws of logic don't apply, but you haven't given any examples, and I can't think of any offhand. Those you raised in the OP certainly wouldn't qualify. By the way, your argument is circular and therefore invalid. No amount of attempted browbeating is going to change that.

Honestly, I think we're talking past each other. It seems that instead of trying to understand my point, you've only attempted to refute it... and failed. It's somewhat humorous that you would employ a tool of logic (the syllogism) to attempt to "prove" that logic can't be applied in this matter!