Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

Depleted · Sep 26, 2017

No. That's my brother, they were copperheads, not rattlers, he's not a believer (yet), and he did get the pointy end of the snake each time he did that. (Did what the first-aid books tell you to do, got sick for a few days, and lives.) lol

Nick_Galusha · Sep 26, 2017

wolfwint said:

read 1 cor 12-14 a bit closer. It is there.

Depleted · Sep 26, 2017

trofimus said:

Well, considering we weren't born healers, I'm assuming God gifted us. We do not now, nor ever have been, given the office of healer though.

I kind of think God gifts each Christian with one or more gifts. And, if the need arises, but that particular church doesn't have someone with that gift, (or we're not in church when we need it), then God gives us the gift for that moment.

The worst thing that can happen if we lay hands on someone and pray is nothing changes and we feel a little silly. If that's the moment in my life I feel the silliest for doing, I've had a very good life. It's really up to God if he chooses to heal someone, but he gave hubby quite the lesson one long night when hubby heard God telling him to pray for the guy in the bed (in the hospital) for his pain, (gout), and hubby took that to mean find a quiet spot and pray.

Hubby did tell the guy that God told him to pray for him. When he returned, the guy was still screaming in pain, and God told hubby to lay hands on him. He told that to his roommate, and the roommate quieted long enough to say, "I've been waiting for you." (Hubby truly felt silly then. lol)

So, hubby laid hands and prayed (out loud, so they guy would know this time.) The guy's screams were keeping hubby awake that night. Right after praying for him, the man fell asleep.

Hubby could finally sleep. Unfortunately, the guy woke him up screaming a few short hours later. He was screaming up and down in the hallway telling everyone that God stopped his pain. When the roommate returned, the gout was still there. Big swollen ankles and wrist. Red, puffy. It looked horrible, but no pain. And, because there was no pain left, he was released a few hours later.

The three times hubby laid hands on me was less dramatic, (except to me.)

-- I had a recurring UTI. Every other month it flared, until the antibiotics lowered this constant need to see if I had to go to the bathroom yet. I'm guessing the antibiotics cut it back enough to seem like it wasn't there anymore, until the infection spread again the next month. Two years of that, (and we only had one toilet, so I'm sure he had to wait more often than he cares to admit. lol) The only thing that stopped the discomfort was the antibiotics, but as he prayed that left. The cycle was broken. I've had UTIs since then, but only a handful of times.

-- I stepped on a bee when I was young. Because of that my entire leg swelled and I was unable to walk for a week. (Swelling took three weeks, but freaky that leg simply refused to work that first week.) Obviously, bees made me nervous, but when hubby and I were dating, I got my second, (and last) bee sting on my hand. I freaked, thinking I will lose that hand for a week, plus that swelling isn't comfortable at all. He immediately laid hands and prayed. Yes, I get that I might have developed a certain amount of immunity, but, if you get stung, don't you at least see swelling at the sting? I didn't even get that.

-- A little black ant bit me on the neck when I was a kid. (I forgot I was letting it crawl on my hand. lol) My entire head looked like a freakish, bright-red, jack-o-lantern. The rest of my body to my feet, (not on my feet, only thing not affected) was a series of huge hives. Little black ant. On our honeymoon, we were walking through a national park in Virginia, and I felt something bite me. A fire ant. Not a little black ant, a fire ant. And more were already on my leg, when I stopped to see what bit me. I hopped-brushed (take a step, brush them off, take another step) a few times before running away. Same thing. He laid hands and nothing! Fire ant! There is never nothing with fire ants!

Hubby has had Hep C, cancer, a heart attack, and a Stage 4 bedsore, so if he were a healer, he would have healed himself more than once. He's really not, but God has given him that gift when God needed someone to use it.

Depleted · Sep 26, 2017

Miri said:

I bet you wear pants too. lol

Funny thing about denominations. When Luther was fighting the only church about "justification in faith in Jesus Christ alone," the church said that if this was allowed to continue there would be new churches starting all the time. Luther pondered that and came back with something like if that's the price to be paid for knowing justification is through Christ alone, than so should it be.

He wasn't wrong. There needs to be division any church thinks they're mighty enough to fetter out how people get saved other than through Christ alone. When the elders in my church could not persuade the Untied Presbyterian Church from embracing humanism, instead of God, a new denomination was born. That was 47 years ago. The originate Presbyterian church still won't and kept adding more and more junk, (the latest being homosexual pastors), and four new denominations are watching a fifth be born as I write this.

Denominations are bad when unite is more important than the message.

wolfwint · Sep 26, 2017

Nick_Galusha said:

Hi Nick, this wish is understandable, but the scripture is not supporting that every christian has the gift of speaking in tongues, heal ore prophecie. And its a minimizing the gifts of the Holy Spirit on the so called "sign gifts". Many ohter gifts are there which are often overseen and not found important. Its blameing all christians which are out of charismatic and pentecostal movement and its blameing also the Holy Spirit who is the giver of the gifts according his will.
Love is a gift which is given to all christians without matter of denominations. And love is that what convinces nonbelievers that we are different. Not the signs and wonders! Even in the Lords time on earth many people saw the miracles and wonders, but insteadt to beeive him they only want to have the benefits.
What is the main purpose of us christians on earth? Follow Jesus and tell the gospel! And not to have a comfort healthy Life on earth. This we will have later in heaven!

wolfwint · Sep 26, 2017

Nick_Galusha said:

Nick, in 1. Cor. 12-14 is not standing that all christians have all gifts. That all christians have the gift of healing. That praying in tongues is a gift for all believers. That the praying in tongues is different to the gift of speaking in tongues. Special not that this is a sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit. For that you must read so near, that you read this into the text.

hornetguy · Sep 26, 2017

Nick_Galusha said:

sorry, just got back to this thread...

Even the "prayer tongues" are not for all believers... at least I see no indication in scripture to support that idea. I have certainly not heard any of my brothers or sisters mention having that "gift"...

If the Spirit chooses to give someone that gift, I'm happy for them... perhaps it is only given to people that "need" a little extra something... I don't know.

Again, though, to make that a type of requirement for all believers is terribly wrong.

Paul said we should "earnestly desire" the spiritual gifts.... which indicates to me that we should not "expect" to get them, unless the Spirit sees that we need them.

shittim · Sep 26, 2017

Some have a prayer language, but don't know it, and so, don't use it.
Just as He is communicating with us all the time, we just don't perceive it.

Speak2Me · Sep 26, 2017

If you look in Acts 2 (Pentecostal's favorite chapter), you'll find a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy indicating the Holy Spirit would be poured out on the church, & that the gift of (you guessed it) prophecy would be manifested on all believers.
It seems to me if it was important enough to be mentioned by an OT prophet, happen in the NT, and confirmed by Peter that it was for the church without a mention of it ever ending, then it's true and available.
Why should we listen to men when it's right there in the Bible?

Nehemiah6 · Sep 26, 2017

shittim said:

If anyone should have had a "prayer language" it would have been Jesus of Nazareth, who was continuously filled with the Spirit. But we know that His prayers were in ordinary human language, and brief at that. The misconception of a prayer language arose from a misinterpretation of 1 Cor. 14:14, which Paul immediately corrects in the next verse:

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

There are several things to note here:

1. Since the word "unknown" is in italics, it should be ignored. The archaic term for language was "tongue", and since tongues are foreign languages spoken supernaturally, Paul is saying that if he prays in a foreign language (which neither he nor his audience understand) he prays in his spirit, but has no clue as to what he prayed ("my understanding is unfruitful").

2. This is NOT about modern babbling (glossolalia) but glossais (in the text the word is glosse):

Strong's Concordance

glóssa: the tongue, a language

Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Short Definition: the tongue, a language, nation
Definition: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

3. Paul immediately corrects the reader by saying "I will pray with the spirit AND I will pray with the understanding". What does this mean? Christians can only pray in the spirit but when they pray in ordinary human language, their mind ("understanding") participates in their prayers.

4. So when we take these two verse together, Paul is actually REBUKING those who claim that they will simply pray in the spirit with foreign languages.

hornetguy · Sep 26, 2017

Speak2Me said:

but, what was the purpose of the Spirit being poured out on those at Pentecost? It was the foundation of the body of Christ.. the establishment of Jesus' church, and it was accompanied with signs and wonders, for the people there who had never heard of Jesus, and knew nothing about his ministry.

There are a lot of things that were done "in the Bible" that were not meant to be done by everyone from that point forward.

Depleted · Sep 26, 2017

shittim said:

Isn't that like saying, "Some have the Inuit language, but don't know it, so don't use it"?

If we can speak a language, we know it. If we can't, we know that too. I can't speak in tongues. (Thought I did for a while, but ends up that was more about being told often I have to, so I finally figured out some sylables that fit.) Hubby can. I don't knock him for having it, and he doesn't knock me for not having it.

And then he chose to join a church knowing the church wasn't keen on prayer language, because the church was keen on teaching the Bible and ministering to one another. That's the keen stuff.

I do get stuck talking to God at times. But, he's God, so he can read me loud and clear -- better than I can. What I can't say with words is transmitted through facial expression, body language, noises (sometimes groans, sometimes closer to squeeeee), and "You know what I mean, Lord. That!" He does know what I mean.

And, in like kind, I know what he means. Maybe not right away, but he always answers, and usually never the way I expect. So, exactly why is a language we don't know and can't use needed for us? Because it's definitely not needed for God. He can hear a mute's prayer. And it's not needed for others, because they get nothing out of someone talking when they don't understand what's being said. So it really is a thing for self.

And bigger question -- of all the gifts God does give to us, why does tongues always seem like the biggest in some circles? It really is the least of the gifts, and yet, the most talked about.

MessageOfTheCross · Sep 26, 2017

The baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is a must for all Christians. However if you don't speak in tongues yet, you still have the same power in you that raised Jesus from the dead. POWER! (Romans 8:11)

notuptome · Sep 26, 2017

Speak2Me said:

If you actually go back and read Joel 2 you would see that not all of Joel's prophecy was fulfilled. You would also see that the Spirit is poured out on all flesh but the gifts of prophecy are given to Israel. Joel differentiates between all flesh and your sons or your daughters.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

wolfwint · Sep 26, 2017

Speak2Me said:

If acts 2 was an compleate fulfilling of joel, then it wonders me that till today the jews not faced the other prophecies of Joel in which the coming of the holy spirit was mentioned. It was, when we look back, an partly fulfillment. And it was an fulfillment for the Jews.
What you are doing is putting verses out of he context for to support an not from the bible taught view.
It is not for the church! The coming from the Holy Spirit startet the church and the Jews still waiting for the fulfillment of Joel.

Miri · Sep 26, 2017

Depleted said:

There does have to be discernment agreed. But I suspect many people rather than using
discernment, just seem to jump in the bandwagon of "my denomination is better that
yours/theirs etc" without even visiting the churches many complain about.

It's like the "my house is bigger than your house, my dad is cleverer than your dad,
our church organ is better then your church organ" game. When the reality is there
is often not much difference on major doctrine. There might be minor doctrine issues
but if the fundamental main stuff is there does it really matter if one church has sabbath on
Saturday and another on Sunday (that could actually be beneficial as you get to go to both
services lol).

Maybe the difference is that in the UK there are many different types of independent
churches not tied to a specific model. So one baptist church could be church of England
in its stances where another baptist church could be Pentecostals in its stances as an example.

Ps I wear both trousers and pants

joefizz · Sep 26, 2017

MessageOfTheCross said:

actually baptism of holy spirit is a must but speaking in tongues is not,in fact paul in the bible said he preferred to speak in a "known" tongue to speak to others because it was more fruitful because there was no confusion in that way when conversing especially in church,also advising that if two or more people spoke in tongues or prophesied that there had to be an interpreter,for particularly with tongues if no interpeter translated what was being said then people coming into the church wouldn't understand and think the people speaking in tongues to be mad,thereby being a problem because it would cause people coming into the church who were new to not stay out of such confusion.

Locutus · Sep 26, 2017

notuptome said:

You need to ditch your dispensational hairsplitting method of reading the scripture.

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.

Or maybe you should just go back and read it yourself.

For the cause of correct interpretation
Locutus.

notuptome · Sep 26, 2017

Locutus said:

Many a heresy has originated in a casual reading of scripture. God wrote scripture with exacting precision.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

MarcR · Sep 26, 2017

garee said:

Third heaven is that a place of secret or private knowledge?

The knowledge it is speaking of comes from the interpretation of God scripture.(prophecy) It is not just any knowledge .

Because there are no more new revelations as God’s interpretation to us. The idea of any new knowledge vanishes.

Do we need to go above that which is written? Are there laws missing by which we could know Christ more adequately?

Just as because there is no more new revelations ( tongues) which is understandable prophecy to those who understand by believing God and a sign of rebellion to those who do not understand because they have another teaching authority making the scripture to no effect all new prophecy has ceased..

The question I would ask is . Are you receiving new revelations as private revelations/interpretations like that of the Catholics.For instance like the Law of the Catholic fathers, as commandments of men below??

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)

Prophesy and prediction are NOT equivalent but prophesy can contain prediction at times.

Prophesy is forth-telling not necessarily foretelling God's will for His people. When a pastor prayerfully seeks God's message to his congregation; the resulting sermon is likely to be prophesy in this sense.

Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

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