The Works Required By Jesus For Salvation.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 24, 2017
11
0
0
#1
Within The Bible, there are two categories of speakers. The first and utterly reliable source is Jesus Christ and The Father. The second category is everyone else.

By His own specification in John 12:49, Jesus only spoke The Word of The Father. All other humans in The Bible are at risk for:

1.) Writing things beyond the facts of God's Word.
2.) Mixing their ideas into The Word of God without distinguishing between the two.
3.) Trying to relate the elements of God's Word to their circumstances at hand in a false manner.
4.) Trying to envigorate and embellish what Jesus said with things He did not say.
5.) Filling in the blank spots of their knowledge of God with sensible sounding ideas.

As an example, Jesus never spoke the word "grace," yet Paul alone constantly embellishes this concept. Strangely, Paul never actually gives a working definition of "grace," and his own ungraciousness was at hand when he argued with The Jerusalem Apostles, and when he had destructive contention with his own team members, causing a permanent rift in their ministry.

So, here is a comparison between The Gospel of Jesus, and Paul's ideas.

1.) In The Sermon on the Mount from Matt. 6:14-15 Jesus specifies nobody will be forgiven their sins by The Father unless they first do the work of forgiving all others their sins. Remember, Jesus was speaking to all of humanity, not just to the common Jewish people of His day.

2.) Jesus in Matt. Ch. 19 specifically told the man asking about eternal life to perform the works of keeping the Commandments/Law, and to dispense to the poor all of his wealth.

3.) John 15:14 has Jesus specifying if anyone is to be His friend, they must first do the work of obeying all of His Commands. He does not say people will obey His Commands "because" they are already His friend. This notion is a twisting of both Scripture and of grammatical accuracey.

4.) Matt. Ch. 25 The Parable of The Servants has Jesus throwing into Utter Darkness those who did not do the work of bringing profit from their conferred talents and assests from Jesus.

5.) Jesus in Matt. 7 specifies that only those who do the work of complying with the will of The Father in Heaven will be known by Jesus. The others will be departed from Him into Hell.

Now, just as an example of Paul's ideas upon salvation not spoken of by Jesus, we have Eph. 2:8-9 written by him stating salvation conferring "grace" from God is an unmerited gift apart from any works. So, who is correct? Divine Jesus, or Creative Paul?
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
#2
Since it was Jesus who gave paul His gospel, there can be no either/or.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
24,999
13,008
113
58
#3
John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

John 6:40 For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

There is no conflict between Paul and Jesus.

Galatians 1:11 - But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
113
#4
Within The Bible, there are two categories of speakers. The first and utterly reliable source is Jesus Christ and The Father. The second category is everyone else.

By His own specification in John 12:49, Jesus only spoke The Word of The Father. All other humans in The Bible are at risk for:

1.) Writing things beyond the facts of God's Word.
2.) Mixing their ideas into The Word of God without distinguishing between the two.
3.) Trying to relate the elements of God's Word to their circumstances at hand in a false manner.
4.) Trying to envigorate and embellish what Jesus said with things He did not say.
5.) Filling in the blank spots of their knowledge of God with sensible sounding ideas.

As an example, Jesus never spoke the word "grace," yet Paul alone constantly embellishes this concept. Strangely, Paul never actually gives a working definition of "grace," and his own ungraciousness was at hand when he argued with The Jerusalem Apostles, and when he had destructive contention with his own team members, causing a permanent rift in their ministry.

So, here is a comparison between The Gospel of Jesus, and Paul's ideas.

1.) In The Sermon on the Mount from Matt. 6:14-15 Jesus specifies nobody will be forgiven their sins by The Father unless they first do the work of forgiving all others their sins. Remember, Jesus was speaking to all of humanity, not just to the common Jewish people of His day.

2.) Jesus in Matt. Ch. 19 specifically told the man asking about eternal life to perform the works of keeping the Commandments/Law, and to dispense to the poor all of his wealth.

3.) John 15:14 has Jesus specifying if anyone is to be His friend, they must first do the work of obeying all of His Commands. He does not say people will obey His Commands "because" they are already His friend. This notion is a twisting of both Scripture and of grammatical accuracey.

4.) Matt. Ch. 25 The Parable of The Servants has Jesus throwing into Utter Darkness those who did not do the work of bringing profit from their conferred talents and assests from Jesus.

5.) Jesus in Matt. 7 specifies that only those who do the work of complying with the will of The Father in Heaven will be known by Jesus. The others will be departed from Him into Hell.

Now, just as an example of Paul's ideas upon salvation not spoken of by Jesus, we have Eph. 2:8-9 written by him stating salvation conferring "grace" from God is an unmerited gift apart from any works. So, who is correct? Divine Jesus, or Creative Paul?

a couple of observations:

you may benefit from a good systematic theology book.

i wish people would realize, when they attempt to pit Christ against Paul, that what they're really saying is they trust Matthew, Mark, Luke and John more than they do Paul. srsly.

lastly, either every word in the Bible is the Word of God, or you can't believe any of them. this is just a logical fallacy proposed in the OP. i hope you will see that.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#5
Within The Bible, there are two categories of speakers. The first and utterly reliable source is Jesus Christ and The Father. The second category is everyone else.

By His own specification in John 12:49, Jesus only spoke The Word of The Father. All other humans in The Bible are at risk for:

1.) Writing things beyond the facts of God's Word.
2.) Mixing their ideas into The Word of God without distinguishing between the two.
3.) Trying to relate the elements of God's Word to their circumstances at hand in a false manner.
4.) Trying to envigorate and embellish what Jesus said with things He did not say.
5.) Filling in the blank spots of their knowledge of God with sensible sounding ideas.

As an example, Jesus never spoke the word "grace," yet Paul alone constantly embellishes this concept. Strangely, Paul never actually gives a working definition of "grace," and his own ungraciousness was at hand when he argued with The Jerusalem Apostles, and when he had destructive contention with his own team members, causing a permanent rift in their ministry.

So, here is a comparison between The Gospel of Jesus, and Paul's ideas.

1.) In The Sermon on the Mount from Matt. 6:14-15 Jesus specifies nobody will be forgiven their sins by The Father unless they first do the work of forgiving all others their sins. Remember, Jesus was speaking to all of humanity, not just to the common Jewish people of His day.

2.) Jesus in Matt. Ch. 19 specifically told the man asking about eternal life to perform the works of keeping the Commandments/Law, and to dispense to the poor all of his wealth.

3.) John 15:14 has Jesus specifying if anyone is to be His friend, they must first do the work of obeying all of His Commands. He does not say people will obey His Commands "because" they are already His friend. This notion is a twisting of both Scripture and of grammatical accuracey.

4.) Matt. Ch. 25 The Parable of The Servants has Jesus throwing into Utter Darkness those who did not do the work of bringing profit from their conferred talents and assests from Jesus.

5.) Jesus in Matt. 7 specifies that only those who do the work of complying with the will of The Father in Heaven will be known by Jesus. The others will be departed from Him into Hell.

Now, just as an example of Paul's ideas upon salvation not spoken of by Jesus, we have Eph. 2:8-9 written by him stating salvation conferring "grace" from God is an unmerited gift apart from any works. So, who is correct? Divine Jesus, or Creative Paul?
If you do not believe in the total reliability of Scripture as a basis for faith and practice there is no basis for discussion.

Jesus refers to Himself as the Word of God. Jesus refers to Scripture as the Word of God.

I believe that Scripture is the visible representation of Jesus until His return.
 
Apr 23, 2017
1,064
47
0
#6
John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

John 6:40 For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

There is no conflict between Paul and Jesus.

Galatians 1:11 - But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
come on mon did u really have to ruin this thread with facts?????? it started off so well.
 
Sep 24, 2017
11
0
0
#7
Since it was Jesus who gave paul His gospel, there can be no either/or.
Did Jesus ever speak the word "grace?" Did Paul ever repeat the 5.) things above Jesus said about salvation, friendship with Him, eternal life, and righteousness by obeying His Commands?

No, Paul never did. In fact, Paul instructed his people to "imitate me," because Paul claimed he had "begotten you [they in Corinth] in Christ." How strange of a claim by Paul, because none of the Jerusalem Apostles, who are "The Founders of The Church," ever made a similar claim about "begetting" Believers. This is strong evidence of Paul arrogantly presuming what is his function beyond that given him by God. Remember, before Paul was killed in Rome, he stated, "All have deserted me."
 
Sep 24, 2017
11
0
0
#9
a couple of observations:

you may benefit from a good systematic theology book.

i wish people would realize, when they attempt to pit Christ against Paul, that what they're really saying is they trust Matthew, Mark, Luke and John more than they do Paul. srsly.

lastly, either every word in the Bible is the Word of God, or you can't believe any of them. this is just a logical fallacy proposed in the OP. i hope you will see that.
Is 1 Cor. 7:12 The Word of God, where Paul stated, "Speak I, not the Lord?"

Lol. Give a strong and wise answer.
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,732
1,630
113
#10
Luke 23:

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.


...


39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.



I wonder if the malefactor (who, according to Jesus, will be with Him in paradise) first forgave all others their sins (as OP indicates must be done according to Matt 6:14-15);

or if the malefactor performed the works of keeping the Commandments/Law, and to dispense to the poor all of his wealth (as OP indicates must be done according to Matt Ch. 19);

or if the malefactor obeyed all of His Commands (as OP indicates must be done according to John 15:14);

or if the malefactor brought profit from his conferred talents and assets from Jesus (as OP indicates must be done according to Matt.Ch. 25 The Parable of The Servants).


Clearly, the malefactor acknowledged he was justly hanged for his deeds (vs 41) and did not have time to "do" all the things OP insists must be done "for salvation".
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
113
#11
Is 1 Cor. 7:12 The Word of God, where Paul stated, "Speak I, not the Lord?"

Lol. Give a strong and wise answer.
my answer is a question. other than the first four books of the New Testament, what do you accept as 'theopneustos' ? 2 Tim 3:16 says ALL Scripture is breathed out by God, or for you, is that just rejected because "Paul wrote it"?

i am truly concerned for you.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#12
3.) John 15:14 has Jesus specifying if anyone is to be His friend, they must first do the work of obeying all of His Commands. He does not say people will obey His Commands "because" they are already His friend. This notion is a twisting of both Scripture and of grammatical accuracey.
I do not know what translation you use, but I think you are quite wrong.

"You are my friends if you do what I command." John 15:14

- i.e. not "you will be...", but "you are". Doing what Jesus commands is the sign of being His friend, not a way to become His friend in future
 
Last edited:

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,916
1,588
113
47
#13
What exactly is the origin of the idea that Paul's writings are contradictory to and in opposition to the rest of Scripture? Inquiring minds want to know...........
 
Sep 24, 2017
11
0
0
#14
Luke 23:

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.


...


39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.



I wonder if the malefactor (who, according to Jesus, will be with Him in paradise) first forgave all others their sins (as OP indicates must be done according to Matt 6:14-15);

or if the malefactor performed the works of keeping the Commandments/Law, and to dispense to the poor all of his wealth (as OP indicates must be done according to Matt Ch. 19);

or if the malefactor obeyed all of His Commands (as OP indicates must be done according to John 15:14);

or if the malefactor brought profit from his conferred talents and assets from Jesus (as OP indicates must be done according to Matt.Ch. 25 The Parable of The Servants).


Clearly, the malefactor acknowledged he was justly hanged for his deeds (vs 41) and did not have time to "do" all the things OP insists must be done "for salvation".
Please, I am not Jesus. I did not "indicate" what Jesus specified about the need to forgive before being forgiven.

Please refrain from foolishly misqouting me. But if you wish to continue doing so, it is your choice.
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
#15
Within The Bible, there are two categories of speakers. The first and utterly reliable source is Jesus Christ and The Father. The second category is everyone else.

By His own specification in John 12:49, Jesus only spoke The Word of The Father. All other humans in The Bible are at risk for:

1.) Writing things beyond the facts of God's Word.
2.) Mixing their ideas into The Word of God without distinguishing between the two.
3.) Trying to relate the elements of God's Word to their circumstances at hand in a false manner.
4.) Trying to envigorate and embellish what Jesus said with things He did not say.
5.) Filling in the blank spots of their knowledge of God with sensible sounding ideas.

As an example, Jesus never spoke the word "grace," yet Paul alone constantly embellishes this concept. Strangely, Paul never actually gives a working definition of "grace," and his own ungraciousness was at hand when he argued with The Jerusalem Apostles, and when he had destructive contention with his own team members, causing a permanent rift in their ministry.

So, here is a comparison between The Gospel of Jesus, and Paul's ideas.

1.) In The Sermon on the Mount from Matt. 6:14-15 Jesus specifies nobody will be forgiven their sins by The Father unless they first do the work of forgiving all others their sins. Remember, Jesus was speaking to all of humanity, not just to the common Jewish people of His day.

2.) Jesus in Matt. Ch. 19 specifically told the man asking about eternal life to perform the works of keeping the Commandments/Law, and to dispense to the poor all of his wealth.

3.) John 15:14 has Jesus specifying if anyone is to be His friend, they must first do the work of obeying all of His Commands. He does not say people will obey His Commands "because" they are already His friend. This notion is a twisting of both Scripture and of grammatical accuracey.

4.) Matt. Ch. 25 The Parable of The Servants has Jesus throwing into Utter Darkness those who did not do the work of bringing profit from their conferred talents and assests from Jesus.

5.) Jesus in Matt. 7 specifies that only those who do the work of complying with the will of The Father in Heaven will be known by Jesus. The others will be departed from Him into Hell.

Now, just as an example of Paul's ideas upon salvation not spoken of by Jesus, we have Eph. 2:8-9 written by him stating salvation conferring "grace" from God is an unmerited gift apart from any works. So, who is correct? Divine Jesus, or Creative Paul?
Hmmm, I have a feeling you won't be around here for long.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
166
63
#16
Within The Bible, there are two categories of speakers. The first and utterly reliable source is Jesus Christ and The Father. The second category is everyone else.

By His own specification in John 12:49, Jesus only spoke The Word of The Father. All other humans in The Bible are at risk for:

1.) Writing things beyond the facts of God's Word.
2.) Mixing their ideas into The Word of God without distinguishing between the two.
3.) Trying to relate the elements of God's Word to their circumstances at hand in a false manner.
4.) Trying to envigorate and embellish what Jesus said with things He did not say.
5.) Filling in the blank spots of their knowledge of God with sensible sounding ideas.

As an example, Jesus never spoke the word "grace," yet Paul alone constantly embellishes this concept. Strangely, Paul never actually gives a working definition of "grace," and his own ungraciousness was at hand when he argued with The Jerusalem Apostles, and when he had destructive contention with his own team members, causing a permanent rift in their ministry.

So, here is a comparison between The Gospel of Jesus, and Paul's ideas.

1.) In The Sermon on the Mount from Matt. 6:14-15 Jesus specifies nobody will be forgiven their sins by The Father unless they first do the work of forgiving all others their sins. Remember, Jesus was speaking to all of humanity, not just to the common Jewish people of His day.

2.) Jesus in Matt. Ch. 19 specifically told the man asking about eternal life to perform the works of keeping the Commandments/Law, and to dispense to the poor all of his wealth.

3.) John 15:14 has Jesus specifying if anyone is to be His friend, they must first do the work of obeying all of His Commands. He does not say people will obey His Commands "because" they are already His friend. This notion is a twisting of both Scripture and of grammatical accuracey.

4.) Matt. Ch. 25 The Parable of The Servants has Jesus throwing into Utter Darkness those who did not do the work of bringing profit from their conferred talents and assests from Jesus.

5.) Jesus in Matt. 7 specifies that only those who do the work of complying with the will of The Father in Heaven will be known by Jesus. The others will be departed from Him into Hell.

Now, just as an example of Paul's ideas upon salvation not spoken of by Jesus, we have Eph. 2:8-9 written by him stating salvation conferring "grace" from God is an unmerited gift apart from any works. So, who is correct? Divine Jesus, or Creative Paul?
This is good, and somehow good news.
How is it good news?
Thank you sir for diverting all the criticisms and dirt remarks your way.
You either haven't been born again long enough to know better or by the looks of it, you got off in the wrong crowd.
How can you even justify believing the four gospels. You still have to pick and chose which is of God and which is not.
 
Sep 24, 2017
11
0
0
#17
my answer is a question. other than the first four books of the New Testament, what do you accept as 'theopneustos' ? 2 Tim 3:16 says ALL Scripture is breathed out by God, or for you, is that just rejected because "Paul wrote it"?

i am truly concerned for you.
I am only marginally concerned about you. "Theopneustos" #2315 occurs in Scripture only once, and as such cannot be a basis for a valid Doctrine or a reliable Theology.

Or, if you must adhere to Paul's use of this #2315, remember the context of it. The only extant Scripture then was the Torah and Prophets, both truly The Word of God. As well, just because Apostle Peter called Paul's "writings" wise, does not mean they are Theopneustos.

It is good for you and others in here to seek help for your best questions.
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
#19
my answer is a question. other than the first four books of the New Testament, what do you accept as 'theopneustos' ? 2 Tim 3:16 says ALL Scripture is breathed out by God, or for you, is that just rejected because "Paul wrote it"?

i am truly concerned for you.
He needs to go back under his bridge and wait for those three goats to come by...
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
166
63
#20
Did Jesus ever speak the word "grace?" Did Paul ever repeat the 5.) things above Jesus said about salvation, friendship with Him, eternal life, and righteousness by obeying His Commands?

No, Paul never did. In fact, Paul instructed his people to "imitate me," because Paul claimed he had "begotten you [they in Corinth] in Christ." How strange of a claim by Paul, because none of the Jerusalem Apostles, who are "The Founders of The Church," ever made a similar claim about "begetting" Believers. This is strong evidence of Paul arrogantly presuming what is his function beyond that given him by God. Remember, before Paul was killed in Rome, he stated, "All have deserted me."
Is there something in particular that Paul did to you that you have a vendetta against his writings?
What about James or John or Peter or Luke? Do you have anything against them?
You do realize that when Jesus was on earth, they were still under the OLD COVENANT, right?