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Thread: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Cool The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    A new form of dispensationalism, "progressive dispensationalism" is causing angst among the old die hard school of "thought":

    .......over the last 20 years a group of DTS dissidents led by Blaising and Darrell Bock have developed a variation of the system that they call progressive dispensationalism. Progressives argue that, in spite of the Rapture, Christians still have a stake in earth's future. "I think what you're seeing in the recent dispensationalism is a more reflective kind of engagement," says Bock, a DTS professor, "even a more nuanced kind of engagement with current culture in which it isn't all necessarily seen as bad, even though there is a lot to criticize."

    To an outsider, the theological differences between traditional and progressive dispensationalism may seem trivial, but the subtle repositioning of the progressives, including Kreider, Bock and Blaising, means that they are now in a crossfire, as disgruntled die-hards on the right add their voices to the clamor from the left. "I think that these guys are not real dispensationalists," says conservative theologian Tommy Ice.

    Ice is director of a dispensationalist think tank called the Pre-Trib Research Center, which recently relocated from Arlington to Falwell's Liberty University in Virginia. "They think they're making changes within the system, and I think they've changed the system."
    The theological debate over dispensationalism may threaten DTS' pre-eminent position in the field, but the popularity of the idea of the Rapture and the ensuing Tribulation period continues to grow.


    Sales of the Left Behind novels have exceeded $650 million since the first book appeared in 1996, and the series' success has inspired a raft of imitators, all part of a Christian merchandise industry that grew to $4.34 billion in 2004. What's harder to measure is the effect that the growing popularity of Dallas' brand of the Apocalypse may have on religion, popular culture and even world politics.

    Full artickle:

    The End Is Near | Dallas Observer

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    More nonsense than anything else, probably from a secular writer. "Progressives argue that, in spite of the Rapture, Christians still have a stake in earth's future." This statement is virtually meaningless, and the article is a mishmash of facts, fallacies, and propaganda. Furthermore, quoting theological liberals (who don't even believe that the Bible is Divine revelation) doesn't help his case, but shows that he has no spiritual discernment.

    We all know that there are many kinds of Dispensationalists (and for all we know these "progressives" have also been infected with theological liberalism), but that does not change the fact the there is value in interpreting Scripture in that manner.

    Saying that "Christians have a stake in earth's future" was not clarified and is really misleading. But the Church will be involved with the earth after the second coming of Christ as revealed in Scripture. The Bible says that we will live and reign with Christ, and Christ will indeed literally reign on this earth, when He establishes the Kingdom of God on earth.

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Satan must just LOVE Dispensationalists....... they have already turned over the earth to him, saying Christ is no match for him today.
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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Satan must just LOVE Dispensationalists....... they have already turned over the earth to him, saying Christ is no match for him today.
    Willie-T, you know better than that. And making false accusations (as above) against Christian brethren is also from Satan.

    When the Bible calls Satan "the god of this world" does it not mean that the one true God allows the Devil to be the "god" of this world, who blinds people's minds and deceives them?

    Also, when the Devil offered all the kingdoms of this world and their glory to Christ, did that not mean that God has allowed Satan control over the nations and their godless systems?

    Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (Mt 4:8,9).

    Does this mean that God is no match for Satan, or does it mean that God allows Satan this kind of power, and therefore calls him "the prince of the power of the air"? Therefore we are told "The whole world lieth in wickedness". Furthermore, in the not-too-distant future God will literally give Satan and the Antichrist total control of this earth for 3 1/2 years.

    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:5,7).

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Here we go with the daniel 70th week

    Anyhow, God is in control of everything, we can see in the story of Job that God was in control there, He put boundaries on the devil.

    As for dispensationalism being near the end, the only thing I can see overthrowing it in the current landscape is the charismatic kingdom now theology. The name it claim it, wealth now type of deal.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    From Middle Town Bible Church:

    Keith Mathison, a postmillennialist and an outspoken critic and opponent of dispensationalism makes the following accurate observations:



    Progressive dispensationalists have moved closer to Reformed theology on a number of doctrines. They now acknowledge that the kingdom has been inaugurated and that there is a present as well as a future aspect of the kingdom.

    They have also recognized the two-peoples-of-God theory to be unbiblica
    l, which, ironically, brings us to the negative side of progressive dispensationalism.

    If the defining doctrine of dispensationalism is the two-peoples-of-God theory, then to reject that theory is to reject dispensationalism itself. "Progressive dispensationalism" is therefore both an encouraging trend and a misleading or confusing title......

    See Mathinson's full comments and the full artickle at
    :

    Progressive


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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Locutus you have made numerous threads regarding dispensationalism, why do you dislike it so much? I would say the word of faith movement has been far more destructive to the church than dispensationalism. I know many dispensationalists who I would call brethren in the faith.
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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Main reason is it is one big error Boga, and error needs to be dealt with.
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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Main reason is it is one big error Boga, and error needs to be dealt with.
    I would say full-preterism is an error. Make a thread bashing that heresy.
    Atleast dispensationalists can follow all the formal creeds of Christianity through history, full-preterists cannot.
    They fall off the band-wagon at the "shall come and judge the living and the dead" part of the Apostle's creed.

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    A new form of dispensationalism, "progressive dispensationalism" is causing angst among the old die hard school of "thought":

    .......over the last 20 years a group of DTS dissidents led by Blaising and Darrell Bock have developed a variation of the system that they call progressive dispensationalism. Progressives argue that, in spite of the Rapture, Christians still have a stake in earth's future. "I think what you're seeing in the recent dispensationalism is a more reflective kind of engagement," says Bock, a DTS professor, "even a more nuanced kind of engagement with current culture in which it isn't all necessarily seen as bad, even though there is a lot to criticize."

    To an outsider, the theological differences between traditional and progressive dispensationalism may seem trivial, but the subtle repositioning of the progressives, including Kreider, Bock and Blaising, means that they are now in a crossfire, as disgruntled die-hards on the right add their voices to the clamor from the left. "I think that these guys are not real dispensationalists," says conservative theologian Tommy Ice.

    Ice is director of a dispensationalist think tank called the Pre-Trib Research Center, which recently relocated from Arlington to Falwell's Liberty University in Virginia. "They think they're making changes within the system, and I think they've changed the system."
    The theological debate over dispensationalism may threaten DTS' pre-eminent position in the field, but the popularity of the idea of the Rapture and the ensuing Tribulation period continues to grow.


    Sales of the Left Behind novels have exceeded $650 million since the first book appeared in 1996, and the series' success has inspired a raft of imitators, all part of a Christian merchandise industry that grew to $4.34 billion in 2004. What's harder to measure is the effect that the growing popularity of Dallas' brand of the Apocalypse may have on religion, popular culture and even world politics.

    Full artickle:

    The End Is Near | Dallas Observer

    I vaguely knew what dispensationalism was, but with all the venom and almost hatred directed towards it, in thread after thread, I decided to find a basic definition of what it was. So I want to thank you for my impetus for searching and codifying almost exactly what my beliefs are:

    Question: "What is dispensationalism and is it biblical?"

    Answer:
    A dispensation is a way of ordering things—an administration, a system, or a management. In theology, a dispensation is the divine administration of a period of time; each dispensation is a divinely appointed age. Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy, and 2) a view of the uniqueness of Israel as separate from the Church in God’s program. Classical dispensationalism identifies seven dispensations in God’s plan for humanity.

    Dispensationalists hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible as the best hermeneutic. The literal interpretation gives each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. It is understood that even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them. So, for example, when the Bible speaks of “a thousand years” in Revelation 20, dispensationalists interpret it as a literal period of 1,000 years (the dispensation of the Kingdom), since there is no compelling reason to interpret it otherwise.

    There are at least two reasons why literalism is the best way to view Scripture. First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself requires that we interpret words literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate. Words are vessels of meaning. The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus’ birth, ministry, death, and resurrection all occurred exactly as the Old Testament predicted. The prophecies were literal. There is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of “the Bible says.” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called Bible study today.

    Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by grace through faith alone—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament. Dispensationalists hold that the Church has not replaced Israel in God’s program and that the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the Church. Dispensationalism teaches that the promises God made to Israel in the Old Testament (for land, many descendants, and blessings) will be ultimately fulfilled in the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation 20. Dispensationalists believe that, just as God is in this age focusing His attention on the Church, He will again in the future focus His attention on Israel (see Romans 9–11 and Daniel 9:24).

    Dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1—3:7), Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22), Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32), Promise (Genesis 12:1Exodus 19:25), Law (Exodus 20:1Acts 2:4), Grace (Acts 2:4Revelation 20:3), and the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Each dispensation includes a recognizable pattern of how God worked with people living in the dispensation. That pattern is 1) a responsibility, 2) a failure, 3) a judgment, and 4) grace to move on.

    Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a distinction between Israel and the Church, and organizes the Bible into different dispensations or administrations.

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Why would I make a thread bashing full-preterism?

    Start one if you wish, this thread is discussing the errors of dispensationalism and progressive dispensationalism.

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Me critiquing your theology - venom and almost hatred

    You critiquing my theology - loving kindness and brotherly correction


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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    While I have never considered dispensational thinking a particularly helpful way of looking at God's dealings with man; I have never had any quarrel with those who do. I don't see how new thinking about dispensationalism by some will make the idea less helpful to those who think in those terms.
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    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    What has been eye opening to me is how many DON'T take Scripture literally, and rely on their own intellect to decide what is literal and true and what isn't.

    It explains how so many Christians are anti- Israel, (even though they try and say they aren't). It drives them CRAZY that the Jews are back in the land. I have heard all sorts of bizarre reasons as to why and how they are there.

    They also can't understand why the world is going the exact course that dispensationalists, using Scripture, say it will. THE WORLD IS NOT GETTING BETTER. And it will continue to get worse until Jesus returns.

    One of THE most precise prophecies regarding end times, that no one can buy or sell without the mark, a cashless society, is LITERALLY right on our doorstep, yet so many who do not take the truths of the Bible literally refuse to believe.

    They believe Who Jesus is, and what He has done. So I'm guessing they are saved, but they have a RUDE awakening coming.

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    What has been eye opening to me is how many DON'T take Scripture literally, and rely on their own intellect to decide what is literal and true and what isn't.

    It explains how so many Christians are anti- Israel, (even though they try and say they aren't). It drives them CRAZY that the Jews are back in the land. I have heard all sorts of bizarre reasons as to why and how they are there.

    They also can't understand why the world is going the exact course that dispensationalists, using Scripture, say it will. THE WORLD IS NOT GETTING BETTER. And it will continue to get worse until Jesus returns.

    One of THE most precise prophecies regarding end times, that no one can buy or sell without the mark, a cashless society, is LITERALLY right on our doorstep, yet so many who do not take the truths of the Bible literally refuse to believe.

    They believe Who Jesus is, and what He has done. So I'm guessing they are saved, but they have a RUDE awakening coming.

    there is certainly a logical order sequenced in the Bible and while I am not pre-trib, you would be right in stating they are in for a rude awakening

    with regard to Israel, the NT could not be plainer in stating that gentiles are grafted in, a wild olive branch as it were, and the Jews are blind for a 'season' until God declares the times of gentiles are over

    however. preterists utterly deny this, say Israel has been cut off by God and are no more

    they believe the flood was local and much of the Bible, to them, is allegory

    they declare we are 'living in the kingdom' now and have a distain for those who do not happen to agree with them

    they will continue in much the same manner, unless God has mercy on their deception and intervenes, until they get that rude awakening you mentionned

    Jesus said no man knows the hour...in fact He does not know the hour...but these folks, Preterists, have it all figured out and it already happened on their allegorical world

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    few get it right many nay says out there with their prattle experience, maybe those who hate the bible word dispensayionalism have forgotten it up lifts CHRIST my LORD .

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Satan must just LOVE Dispensationalists....... they have already turned over the earth to him, saying Christ is no match for him today.
    They said that? Where, when, and who?
    They didn't tell me.
    You'd think someone your age would have better manners, and sense, too.

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    since we had a definition of ... more like a broad brush as just as with anything else, there are differing views there also...dispensationalism, here is one on preterism


    FOUNDATION OF PRETERISM
    The foundation of preterism is their use of the allegorical method of Bible interpretation. This basically means that they will spiritualize any piece of Scripture that does not fit within their belief system of preterism. There are many ways to dismiss Scripture. You could take a pair of scissors and simply cut out the verses you don't like or that don't fit within your belief system. Or, you can use the allegorical method to interpret the Bible. Both methods essentially do the same thing. The end result is the Word of God is nullified as literal Scripture is spiritualized and then dismissed.

    Now for a definition. What is preterism?

    Preterism: An eschatological viewpoint that places many or all eschatological events in the past, especially during the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 228)

    The above quote pretty well sums up their beliefs. They consider that all prophecy was fulfilled at A.D. 70. This means there is no need to look for prophetic events to happen in the future. No point since they already happened in 70 A.D.. Jesus is not coming back in some future date. No, He returned in some kind of a spiritual way back in A.D. 70. Since then, we have been living in the garden of Eden here on earth. The preterist rejects the thought that prophetic events may yet be future. The preterest calls those who are looking for future prophetic events to occur a Futurist. To them that is a very negative label.. like a curse word. i.e. So you are a futurist eh....! ... you Futurist.. you!

    So that is the foundation stone for preterism. What I've just written so far is enough for about 95 percent of the readers to already reject preterism. The simple fact is that A.D. 70 is NOT the fulfillment of prophecy. There are still many events (like the Second Coming of Christ) that have not happened yet!

    source
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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    From the site:

    Progressive


    H. Wayne House, was a professor of systematic theology at Dallas Theological Seminary. He shared the following sad story of doctrinal departure:

    One of my best students, and a research assistant to me at DTS, had told me in the mid-1990's that he had accepted progressive dispensationalism. My next meeting with him at the Dallas Seminary bookstore just two years ago I discovered that he had embraced amillennialism and covenant theology. When I asked him about this he commented to me that it was an easy move to make from progressive dispensationalism to amillennialism. [H. Wayne House, "Dangers of Progressive Dispensationalism to Pre-Millennial Theology," Pre-Trib. CD 2003, page 3].


    Woe is them....

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    Default Re: The End is Near for Dispensationalism - it's cracking apart..

    learning about preterism is certainly interesting . here is more from the same site:

    SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION
    Preterism defends the bodily resurrection of Jesus. However they teach the 'spiritual' resurrection of believers. They claim, preterism agrees with Paul, that "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:44).

    This means the preterist would agree that when Jesus was raised from the dead that it was a bodily resurrection. However, they differ in that when a Christian is raised from the dead. Instead of a body of flesh and bone like Jesus had, they believe the Christian will be given a nonphysical body. Well I hate to burst their bubble but a spiritual body in the resurrection will be composed of flesh and bone - just like the Lord Jesus' resurrection body.

    First I want to say that as Jesus was raised from the dead... so will the Christian! We will be given a resurrection body and it will be just like the body Jesus had! See the following Scripture:

    I John 3:2
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    One day we will be like Jesus. We will be given an eternal resurrection body just like Jesus has. Now what are the characteristics of a resurrection body. See below and it can be seen that a spiritual body is composed of flesh and bone:

    Luke 24:37-39
    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    For the preterist to argue that 'Yes, Jesus was raised in a body... ' and then to claim the Christian will not, cannot be justified. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection. All God's people will have a resurrection body just like Jesus. It will be a spiritual body but it will be a body of flesh and bone, just like Jesus! To argue anything less is pure speculation.
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