The Millennium literal or symbolic?

[valiant]

Where did you get the idiotic notion that Christ rules today? I didn't see any credible post in this thread to that effect. The prophecies are clear that once He takes the throne here on earth all that will end.

Ah well, God was mistaken in Acts 2.29-36. Rom 5.17, 21

 

[MattforJesus]

Im just dropping by to burst the preterist bubble but yall are in a massive delusion.

The church aint ruling over the world, yall must be dreaming. Try reading the newspaper every once in a while, the devil sure dont look bound to me. He seems to be busy deceiving the nations, in fact he seems to be deceiving the churches too, most churches today look more like circus' with their skinnyjeans wearing pastors and rock music and other foolery to try to lure the world in, SURPRISE it dont work. Christianity isnt supposed to be loved by the world.

The devil is infact so busy deceiving the world, he done deceived you to thinking this is as good as it gets! BIG MISTAKE!

The Bible says when Jesus rules that He will rule with a rod of iron,and in that day there will be one LORD,and His name one,and He shall be King over all the earth,and the heathen that He spares at the battle of Armageddon have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD,and the people will not fight with each other,and the animals will not fight with each other,and be plant eaters,and the animals and people will not fear each other,and a child can lead the most ferocious animal on earth,and it will have no desire to hurt that child.

When did this ever happen,and it is not in heaven,for it states it is on earth,and there is no heathen in heaven,but they are there when Jesus is King over all the earth.

How is Jesus ruling with a rod of iron,if the world is still rebellious,and the new age movement,which will occur in the latter times,which is now,has an interpretation of the Bible,and all religions,based on spiritual evolution through nature,that is the future for this sinful world,and they rebel against Christianity.

How is Jesus ruling,and why is it only for 1000 years,when Jesus said,all power is given unto Me in heaven,and earth,so He has been ruling ever since He ascended in to heaven if they say it is a spiritual rule,but He is not ruling yet on earth when everything is Jesus' way,and no other way.

The millennial reign is literal,and states it occurs on earth,and Jesus rules with a rod of iron,which means there is no rebelliousness among the people,for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD,which this has not happened yet,where everybody is obeying God.

 

[Locutus]

Ah well, God was mistaken in Acts 2.29-36. Rom 5.17, 21

Quite right ol' bean.

Acts 2:29 Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

Acts 2:30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

Acts 2:31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

Acts 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

It should be obvious from the above that David's throne was to be in the heavenlies at the right hand of God and not on the physical earth.

 

[PlainWord]

You are ignoring the fact that Revelation is not an open book where only minor things can be argued about. In the last several centuries theologians have created four different views over this book. Only Daniel has the same issue and they both are prophecy books filled with symbols making them unclear. Only after the fact do these symbols make sense. The statue in Daniel for example. While Christ's work on the cross is finished the understanding of Revelation and parts of Daniel are shrouded in mystery.

They are surrounded in mystery to only those with little knowledge of history and the fulfillment of 70 AD.

 

[Locutus]

Revelation is an open book John was told not to seal the sayings:

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

The time for fulfillment was near when John wrote - it is not applicable 1970 years later and counting.

 

[Endoscopy]

Revelation is an open book John was told not to seal the sayings:

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

The time for fulfillment was near when John wrote - it is not applicable 1970 years later and counting.

LOL
When did the tribulation and the rapture happen?

 

[Locutus]

If I might expand on this...? Maybe this will help some.

The last enemy "DEATH" which was destroyed in 70 AD, was spiritual death (separation from God) meaning death would no longer have the sting of Hades. Today, there is no death for a believer. John puts it this way, making the same point as Paul:

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Notice John isn't saying once you die physically you pass to spiritual life. Instead he is saying once you accept Christ, you pass from spiritual death to spiritual life and will not face judgment. You have everlasting life at that moment. For you, death has been defeated!!

This final enemy, (after the apostate Jews were destroyed in 70 AD) was Death. Here's Paul again, explaining who the OTHER enemies were in his day.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Therefore the enemies were the non-believers of his day.

What I think is missing PL is misunderstanding and conflation of spiritual death (separation from God due to sin) and natural physical death.

Without understanding the difference we end up with confusion.

 

[Locutus]

LOL
When did the tribulation and the rapture happen?

The Great Tribulation was the war of 66-70 AD - the "rapture" was most likely at the end of that war.

 

[Endoscopy]

Revelation is an open book John was told not to seal the sayings:

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

The time for fulfillment was near when John wrote - it is not applicable 1970 years later and counting.

Got interrupted. God's view of time is different from man's view.

 

[Locutus]

Got interrupted. God's view of time is different from man's view.

God's view of time may not be years, weeks and days - but when He communicates with man through His words - then it means what it says.

Near is near Far is far otherwise these statements become elastic and meaningless and can be manipulated by bogus reasoning.

 

[Issachar92]

God's view of time may not be years, weeks and days - but when He communicates with man through His words - then it means what it says.

Near is near Far is far otherwise these statements become elastic and meaningless and can be manipulated by bogus reasoning.

Unless we're talkin bout new heavens and new earth... then words are meaningless and elastic and manipulated by bogus reasoning. Same goes for death being abolished in the new heaven and earth.

Ya see how retarded preterism is? If anyone makes statements elastic and meaningless bogus its yall

 

[Endoscopy]

The Great Tribulation was the war of 66-70 AD - the "rapture" was most likely at the end of that war.

I suggest you reread the tribulation part of Revelation again. Where was God's pouring out his wrath then. People almost wiped out. Methinks you are ignoring the devastation of the tribulation. The four horsemen causing devastation, the bowls even more. Nothing equivalent happened back then.

 

[valiant]

LOL
When did the tribulation and the rapture happen?

the great tribulation on the Jews (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21) commenced about 67 AD and continues to the present day, the rapture will wrap up the present Heaven and earth,

 

[valiant]

I suggest you reread the tribulation part of Revelation again. Where was God's pouring out his wrath then. People almost wiped out. Methinks you are ignoring the devastation of the tribulation. The four horsemen causing devastation, the bowls even more. Nothing equivalent happened back then.

The four horsemen began their march in 1st century and have continued ever since. The seals trumpets and bowls all witness to events of history, and are completed by Christ's second coming, including the rapture.

 

[Locutus]

Unless we're talkin bout new heavens and new earth... then words are meaningless and elastic and manipulated by bogus reasoning. Same goes for death being abolished in the new heaven and earth.

Ya see how retarded preterism is? If anyone makes statements elastic and meaningless bogus its yall

Let's discuss the New Heavens and Earth then - and it's source:

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


According to Isaiah there is still death and sinners in this "new heavens and earth" - this is not what futurist "theologies" claim they claim the opposite.

 

[Endoscopy]

the great tribulation on the Jews (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21) commenced about 67 AD and continues to the present day, the rapture will wrap up the present Heaven and earth,

You are an ignorant saying the Roman army dispersing the Jews at that time was the tribulation? Then why was Revelation written by John about 90 to 100 AD?

Exegesis not eisegesis. Your historical time of the writing of the New Testament has you using eisegesis

 

[Locutus]

I suggest you reread the tribulation part of Revelation again. Where was God's pouring out his wrath then. People almost wiped out. Methinks you are ignoring the devastation of the tribulation. The four horsemen causing devastation, the bowls even more. Nothing equivalent happened back then.

No need to reread it - the great tribulation and the time of is described by Jesus:

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


The companion verses are found in Luke:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Endoscopy]

No need to reread it - the great tribulation and the time of is described by Jesus:

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


The companion verses are found in Luke:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

I most of the time ignore single verses used to prove a point.
Context, context, context!!!

Verse 16 for example is preceeded by the event triggering that command. Verse 21 preceeded by the conditions creating this distress. Verse 34 is preceeded by the time frame when it will happen.

Context, context, context!!!

Matthew 24 New International Version (NIV)

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole worldas a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a]spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the electthose days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Locutus]

I most of the time ignore single verses used to prove a point.
Context, context, context!!!

The whole context is about "when ye shall see":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

ALL things fulfilled which are written - Jesus was not predicting any other thing that what the prophets had written.

 

[Bladerunner]

The whole context is about "when ye shall see":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

ALL things fulfilled which are written - Jesus was not predicting any other thing that what the prophets had written.

Yes he did...... The Great Tribulation Mat 24 :21...."21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."