The major difference is your assertion about 70 AD being the completion of a prophecy fulfillment in Revelation. That is why I claim you are wrong about 70 AD. The earliest date given for writing a preliminary version of Revelation is 69 AD. that makes it impossible for the fulfillment of the prophecy to be 70 AD. Otherwise when doing an edit later that prophecy would be talked about as fulfilled.
The Millennium literal or symbolic?
- Thread starter Locutus
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You are disturbing his delusion. It might make him upset. I have dealt with this irrational view of Revelation before. I don't know where they get it from but there is no real way to get them to understand what the Bible teaches. In their mind they are correct and the rest of the theologians are wrong.
Last edited:
Keeping the law requires a temple so no one since the destruction has kept the old law.
And getting back to the AD 70 finish of the law/old covenant - what you are missing is the that law with it's blessings and curses (from Deuteronomy) had to be in place for the 1st century judgment of apostate Israel.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
All things written in old covenant were not fulfilled at the cross.
And getting back to the AD 70 finish of the law/old covenant - what you are missing is the that law with it's blessings and curses (from Deuteronomy) had to be in place for the 1st century judgment of apostate Israel.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
All things written in old covenant were not fulfilled at the cross.
Friend,
I have not heard of this "editing" theory before.
A far as writings and theories, and what men have said, they can be argued about.
But what evidence do you have that the Revelation was edited?
I mean, what part of the book do you think has been edited? Can you show me within the Revelation itself, aside from what men have said, where it has been edited?
I have not heard of this "editing" theory before.
A far as writings and theories, and what men have said, they can be argued about.
But what evidence do you have that the Revelation was edited?
I mean, what part of the book do you think has been edited? Can you show me within the Revelation itself, aside from what men have said, where it has been edited?
As far as I know the SDA don't claim the law was still in force till 70 AD.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So when did "heaven and earth" pass away - the law and it's jots and tittles are still in effect until they do - was Jesus wrong?
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So when did "heaven and earth" pass away - the law and it's jots and tittles are still in effect until they do - was Jesus wrong?
====
And all things written in the OT were not fulfilled by 70 ad.
===
Gen 1:28, "...replenish the earth and subdue it:..." The earth was not subdued by 70 ad., but it is now.
===
Gen 3:15, "...it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." This happened at the cross, but shows a final end of Satan, which hasn't happened yet. Future to us and 70 ad.
===
Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease."
There will come a time when they will cease, "while the earth remaineth",
When this planet remaineth no more. Months or a few years, maybe.
And all things written in the OT were not fulfilled by 70 ad.
===
Gen 1:28, "...replenish the earth and subdue it:..." The earth was not subdued by 70 ad., but it is now.
===
Gen 3:15, "...it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." This happened at the cross, but shows a final end of Satan, which hasn't happened yet. Future to us and 70 ad.
===
Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease."
There will come a time when they will cease, "while the earth remaineth",
When this planet remaineth no more. Months or a few years, maybe.
They say that it is in effect even today, the big 10 that is.
So what's the difference in trying to please God under the Law, before or after 70 ad? There is no difference to God, if you don't accept Jesus and the kingdom you are cut off.
According to Paul in Rom 11:19-20, the natural branches were broken off at the time of his writing for unbelief, before 70 ad., are you saying that they were not broken off at that time?
I'm going to agree with you on this one! LOOK OUT! Ha Ha.
Yes, heaven and earth did pass away, symbolically, (6th seal), at the destruction of Jerusalem.
----------
But the thought would be,
Separating the events of 70 ad., with the events of the rap/resus/end of the planet.
Jesus came in 70 ad with clouds of Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem.
But there was not a resurrection at that time.
This is where the confusion between theories lies.
The confusion in symbolism between the coming in 70 ad, and the resurrection at the end of the planet.
The 6th seal shows the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad..
The 7th trumpet shows the resurrection and end of the planet, after Israel is restored to Jerusalem (1967).
When is it talking about the dest of Jerusalem, and when is it talking about the end of the planet?
-----
The theory that everything was completed, fulfilled, by 70 ad, was a pretty good one for at least 100's of years.
But since Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, it opens up, insights, possibilities.
So what's the difference in trying to please God under the Law, before or after 70 ad? There is no difference to God, if you don't accept Jesus and the kingdom you are cut off.
According to Paul in Rom 11:19-20, the natural branches were broken off at the time of his writing for unbelief, before 70 ad., are you saying that they were not broken off at that time?
I'm going to agree with you on this one! LOOK OUT! Ha Ha.
Yes, heaven and earth did pass away, symbolically, (6th seal), at the destruction of Jerusalem.
----------
But the thought would be,
Separating the events of 70 ad., with the events of the rap/resus/end of the planet.
Jesus came in 70 ad with clouds of Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem.
But there was not a resurrection at that time.
This is where the confusion between theories lies.
The confusion in symbolism between the coming in 70 ad, and the resurrection at the end of the planet.
The 6th seal shows the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad..
The 7th trumpet shows the resurrection and end of the planet, after Israel is restored to Jerusalem (1967).
When is it talking about the dest of Jerusalem, and when is it talking about the end of the planet?
-----
The theory that everything was completed, fulfilled, by 70 ad, was a pretty good one for at least 100's of years.
But since Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, it opens up, insights, possibilities.
Endoscopy, thank you for the post above.
This forum (Bible Discussion) has almost become like the Atheist chat rooms I was at some time ago. They always brought out these strange views of Revelation down to the outright rejection of it to simple symbolism. While the outright rejection of GOD is their goal, they always tried to re-direct the subject at hand much like Satan does on a worldly basis.
While I understand there are a lot of people here on this forum that truly believe they have it right regardless of what the majority of the conservative theologeans have said. A lot of it, I feel is because of Societal values(their lifestyles prohibitive of living totally for GOD) along with their world view (most likely 'Post Modernism'- Liberalism). In essence they have got to Bring GOD to them and break down every argument sent to them instead of using the authority of GOD's WORD to argue a point.
We are in the era of the 'Church of Laodiceans' and many of the people on this forum have fallen into their trap. Rev 3:17.."7 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;"
This forum (Bible Discussion) has almost become like the Atheist chat rooms I was at some time ago. They always brought out these strange views of Revelation down to the outright rejection of it to simple symbolism. While the outright rejection of GOD is their goal, they always tried to re-direct the subject at hand much like Satan does on a worldly basis.
While I understand there are a lot of people here on this forum that truly believe they have it right regardless of what the majority of the conservative theologeans have said. A lot of it, I feel is because of Societal values(their lifestyles prohibitive of living totally for GOD) along with their world view (most likely 'Post Modernism'- Liberalism). In essence they have got to Bring GOD to them and break down every argument sent to them instead of using the authority of GOD's WORD to argue a point.
We are in the era of the 'Church of Laodiceans' and many of the people on this forum have fallen into their trap. Rev 3:17.."7 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;"
So if heaven and earth passed away at the destruction of Jerusalem then surely that is also the time the old covenant passed rather than at the cross.
Yus can't have yer cake and eat it....
Mat 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
And if heaven and earth passed away at the destruction of Jerusalem wouldn't that also mean "all is accomplished'?
Yus can't have yer cake and eat it....
Mat 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
And if heaven and earth passed away at the destruction of Jerusalem wouldn't that also mean "all is accomplished'?
So if heaven and earth passed away at the destruction of Jerusalem then surely that is also the time the old covenant passed rather than at the cross.
Yus can't have yer cake and eat it....
Mat 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
And if heaven and earth passed away at the destruction of Jerusalem wouldn't that also mean "all is accomplished'?
Yus can't have yer cake and eat it....
Mat 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
And if heaven and earth passed away at the destruction of Jerusalem wouldn't that also mean "all is accomplished'?
Think about what Jesus said on the cross at His death, Jn 19:28-30.
V 28, "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished,...."
V 30, "he said, It is finished:..."
What was accomplished? All things?
What was finished?
Jesus' work as the perfect sacrifice under the Law. Ending the sacrifice for sin for all time, with His own blood, tearing the veil from top to bottom, ending the Law.
The earthly temple was just a dead body from the Law.
====
Heaven and earth did pass away at the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad.
And yes, if they passed away, then there must be a new heaven and earth.
The old covenant passed when Jesus died,
The new covenant began on Pentecost, which would be the new heaven and earth, symbolically.
But like a dead body, the remains of the old covenant were still present until 70 ad.
At the 6th seal the heavens pass, and the earth shifts position, showing that it is not possible to return to the previous positions ever. So when the temple was destroyed, it was absolute proof that Jesus was the Messiah.
====
So here is the question.
Which scriptures are showing the symbolic passing of heaven and earth, and which ones are showing the passing of this universe and planet?
I'm going with, the fire from heaven in Rev 20:9 is the end of this universe and planet.
And that Rev 20:11, is also showing this universe and planet leaving from the presence of Jesus.
What do you think, dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad?
Or the final end to this planet?
=====
Locutus,
I agree with you on many things, usually surrounding the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad.
But the prophecies don't all end in 70 ad.
The times that the gentiles trample Jerusalem underfoot Lk 21:24,
Is not just the time of the Roman attack until final victory,
But goes past 70 ad until Israel is restored to control over Jerusalem 1967.
The times of the gentiles is a time with a beginning and an end.
The trampling didn't end in 70 ad, it continued past that time.
The great tribulation of Israel did not end in 70 ad, it had just begun, and lasted for 1900 years.
It ended when Israel was restored to Jerusalem, 1967.
That is when the power of the Roman iron dragon beast over Israel was ended.
I don't think you can use John in that manner AB, otherwise there is a contradiction between other statements he made:
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Obviously the restoration of Israel to the kingdom was not accomplished at the cross - all things pertaining to his death on the cross as a were accomplished though.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Obviously the restoration of Israel to the kingdom was not accomplished at the cross - all things pertaining to his death on the cross as a were accomplished though.
Keep in mind that Revelation was written after 70 AD. Therefore 70 AD is not the start of the tribulation in it. You have to put all of the prophetic sections together to get the complete picture of the total prophecies. There are a lot of symbols in Daniel and Revelation. These make the understanding of how it will unfold be hard to decipher. Theologians have pondered this for centuries and have created 4 different eschatologyical views. They don't have this problem with the rest of the Bible.
I agree
Well then, where does the great tribulation of Israel begin in the Rev? Where is it shown?
I agree
The statue of Dan. 2 tells it all.
They have had their views for centuries. I don't think that they are all wrong, or all right, I think that they each have part of it right, and part of it wrong. Good studies though.
I believe that the truth of Jesus binds us together, regardless of our opinions about future events.
Well then, where does the great tribulation of Israel begin in the Rev? Where is it shown?
I agree
The statue of Dan. 2 tells it all.
They have had their views for centuries. I don't think that they are all wrong, or all right, I think that they each have part of it right, and part of it wrong. Good studies though.
I believe that the truth of Jesus binds us together, regardless of our opinions about future events.
I agree
This is exactly the point, when Jesus said that all things were accomplished and it is finished, He meant pertaining to His death, as you say.
He didn't say "pertaining to my death", we understand that.
It is the same when it says that all things which are written may be fulfilled, it means all things written about the dest of Jerusalem were to be fulfilled.
You see, Jerusalem was the center of their lives. You can imagine that the apostles were wondering, why does this have to happen? Why do you have to die, Lord? Why does Jerusalem have to be destroyed?
These things have to happen so that all things written about them, in scriptures will be fulfilled, all of the prophecies written about them will come true, come to pass.
But not all of the prophecies of the OT were fulfilled at that time, but the ones about the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad were.
This is exactly the point, when Jesus said that all things were accomplished and it is finished, He meant pertaining to His death, as you say.
He didn't say "pertaining to my death", we understand that.
It is the same when it says that all things which are written may be fulfilled, it means all things written about the dest of Jerusalem were to be fulfilled.
You see, Jerusalem was the center of their lives. You can imagine that the apostles were wondering, why does this have to happen? Why do you have to die, Lord? Why does Jerusalem have to be destroyed?
These things have to happen so that all things written about them, in scriptures will be fulfilled, all of the prophecies written about them will come true, come to pass.
But not all of the prophecies of the OT were fulfilled at that time, but the ones about the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad were.