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Thread: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    The first thing in my mind that needs to be addressed it who are those that partake in this:

    "Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again"

    I would say that is it the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel among others, but primarily is concerned with the 12 tribes.Is there any disagreement with this?
    I have a different view on this. The 144K are first fruits because the Gospel was first preached to them during the ministry of Christ, so they were the first saved and "belonged" as Jews to the Jewish church located on Mount Zion, even though many were from a different place. I believe the 144K, from the 12 tribes which were scattered, returned to Jerusalem for Passover in 66 AD. They were trapped there, along with everyone else, when Rome initially surrounded Jerusalem upon the murder of James, the Just, half-brother of Christ.

    According to Josephus, they were given divine instruction to leave and they did escaping to Pella of the Decapolis, where incidentally Christ likely had visited alone during His ministry. It is my belief that Christ prepared the people of Pella to accept His firstfruits some 36 years later.

    As Christ promised, He was with them (in spirit) until the end of the age (70 AD). Thus John, also in spirit at the time, saw the Lamb standing with the 144K on Mount Zion (Rev 7). John then paints the picture of many other saints from all over in heaven having "come out of great tribulation" (persecution) at the hands of Apostate Jews, Greeks and Romans. Thus, the great tribulation these saints came out of is NOT the great tribulation that Jesus promised would come upon apostate Israel during the siege of Rome.

    I do not believe the 144K were dead or physically resurrected. They were alive and living at the time of the parousia of Christ. They were singing a new song filled with the Holy Spirit under the protection of God Almighty.

    To understand the "first resurrection" one must understand the meaning of the "second death." There is only one thing that protects from the second death (which is eternal separation from God) and that is becoming "born again."
    Last edited by PlainWord; October 12th, 2017 at 10:19 PM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    If dispensationalism was the topic, and the millennium is a common issue debated regarding dispensationalism, would it not be reasonable for a person to bring up a counter argument, covenant eschatology, and discuss either it's veracity or errors?

    How do counter-arguments to dispensational points not count as germane to a debate of dispensationalism?



    I don't care what gets debated, or who wins... I'm just not seeing the logic here.
    That's because it's really not about discussing a topic, it's about Locutus getting his way and as you can see, that's not happening.
    The longer I surf thru the BDF, the more I see things aren't what they seem to be. Know what I mean?

  3. #23
    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speak2Me View Post
    That's because it's really not about discussing a topic, it's about Locutus getting his way and as you can see, that's not happening.
    The longer I surf thru the BDF, the more I see things aren't what they seem to be. Know what I mean?
    I put locutus on ignore along time ago. That is the best thing really. He really hates dispensations. And he has declared war on them, so if you try to give a counter argument you will be attacked in a bad way.

    I wish people would stop responding to his nonsense, then maybe he would go away.
    PennEd and Speak2Me like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  4. #24
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    There are two "great tribulations."

    A) persecution of the church where many were put to death before 70 AD.

    B) the siege of Jerusalem by Rome from 66-70 AD, with the final 5 months being the worst.

    The second tribulation I mention is God's revenge upon those carrying out the first tribulation.

    Paul, in 2 Thes 1, identifies these two tribulations quiet clearly. The wicked, apostate Jews, were persecuting the Christian Church in Thessalonika and God saw to it that these Jews returned to Jerusalem for Passover (as was their custom) to be entrapped in the city to suffer and die.


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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    As for the millennium, it began in 70 AD and continues to this day.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member pottersclay's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    According to what I have read the 1000 yrs is to restore the earth as was promised by God. Why it takes 1000 yrs is to show the devastating effects that the great trib did to the earth.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I put locutus on ignore along time ago. That is the best thing really. He really hates dispensations. And he has declared war on them, so if you try to give a counter argument you will be attacked in a bad way.

    I wish people would stop responding to his nonsense, then maybe he would go away.
    You have me on ignore yet here you are in one of my threads whining as you've done in my other threads - a decent person would if they are ignoring someone would stay out of their threads.

    Grow some gonads man.

    Somebody quote this for me....
    PlainWord and He_reigns like this.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    I have a different view on this. The 144K are first fruits because the Gospel was first preached to them during the ministry of Christ, so they were the first saved and "belonged" as Jews to the Jewish church located on Mount Zion, even though many were from a different place. I believe the 144K, from the 12 tribes which were scattered, returned to Jerusalem for Passover in 66 AD. They were trapped there, along with everyone else, when Rome initially surrounded Jerusalem upon the murder of James, the Just, half-brother of Christ.
    So are you saying the 144K of the 12 tribes that returned during Passover were not of the elect that were saved PL?

    And it looks like you are saying there were 144k Jews that were saved and escaped the wrath?

    I'm not following your logic here PL.

  9. #29
    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Biblical prophecy is clear that our present civilization is about to be replaced by a far
    better world. Though today’s cities will be destroyed (ex. Ezekiel 6:6; 12:20),

    "Thy Kingdom come" The Good news of the comming Kingdom of God to earth.

    After human misrule causes great tribulation that almost wipes out civilization,
    Jesus Christ will return to Earth to establish His rule. Christ will be Unwelcome.
    The nations will be angry at His coming (Revelation 11:15 with 11:18), and the
    military forces will actually attempt to fight Him to destroy Him! (Revelation 17:14).

    The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
    to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
    world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).

    He went away (to heaven) to be coronated, and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27).
    He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Nahum 1:5)
    “We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
    because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned” (Revelation 11:17)

    -The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of current world become Christs (Rev 11:15)
    Will commit thy government into his hand, established with judgement and jutice.
    (Isaiah 22:21) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,
    upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,...(Isaiah 9:7)

    beginning of that rule and world government “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
    and judgment was given unto them…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”
    (Revelation 20:4).(Isaiah 11:2-4) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall
    separate them one from another,...Matthew 25:32

    -A Kingdom appointed to the saints , made rulers over some cities.
    the glorified saints of God made perfect,cities will be ruled by spirit beings.

    Jesus said: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will
    I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron…” (Rev 2:26-27).
    And again, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne [on this Earth]”
    (Revelation 3:21; Luke 1:32-33). And, “…we shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:10).

    And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;(Luke 22:29)
    Some resurrected saints will rule over 10 cities, some over five (Luke 19:12-19)
    Saints shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, (Daniel 7:18)
    We shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 25:13-22:26, 37:9, 22,29) not flesh and blood.

    -Jerusalem, the future headquarters city of the Earth (Haggai 2:6-8)
    -Land Beneath Sea Reclaimed, converted to Jerusalem(Isaiah 60:5, 11:15).

    World’s gold and silver reserves under the seas for beautiful decorations there.
    -Gods latter house shall be greater than of the former (Haggai 2:9)
    -Jerusalem is uniquely describes as being “compact together,” tall 122:3

    -Desolate land shall be tilled - will be like the garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:34-35)
    -Build the waste cities-fresh produce-drink there own wine-farming (Amos 9:14)
    -Waste cities “filled with flocks of men” being very social(Ezekiel 36:36-37-38)
    -Superhighways between major cities (Isaiah 19:23)

    -Cities being crime-free , dwell safely-none be made afried (Ezekiel 34:28-Micah 4:4)
    -No more Violence, nor wasting, nor destruction (Isaiah 60:18)
    -Cities overflow with prosperity (Zechariah 1:17) -Equitable property distribution
    - every man shall own his vine and fig tree (Micah 4:4-Lev25) and

    -“Joy and gladness-thanksgiving-the voice of melody(Isaiah 51:3)(Jeremiah 33:10-11)
    -Where old men and old women dwell -full of boys and girls playing (Zechariah 8:4-5)
    -No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up (Isaiah 35:9 )
    -There will be Shepherds and local animal husbandry (Jer. 33:12)

    -Pure Water—Fertile Deserts where trees grow (Isaiah 35)
    -No more hunger-He will raise up a plant of renown (Ezekiel 34:29
    -A new sharp threshing instrument -the mountains made small(Isaiah 41:14-16)

    -If any thrist and seek water, the God of Israel will not forsake them. (ver 17-18
    -Trees planted and growing-consider and understand that the [Eternal] hath
    done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it” . (verse 19-20)

    The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. (Isaiah 14:7)
    All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name.
    Psalms 66:4 -God has spoken it, and He is not one to go back on His word (Isaiah 55:11


    those who think this Kingdom has come already are very much blinded!
    Last edited by prove-all; October 12th, 2017 at 10:57 PM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    I had a few points to make, and I made them, and I'm done.

    Locutus was very polite with me.

    I hope we can keep everything in these debates more polite, on all sides.



    Have fun guys.
    : )

  11. #31
    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    As for the millennium, it began in 70 AD and continues to this day.
    Could not have, the things we are told would occur in the mellinium have yet to occur. Satan is not bound, And Jesus is not ruling the nations with a rod of Iron. If he was. The world would be a far better place.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  12. #32
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    You have me on ignore yet here you are in one of my threads whining as you've done in my other threads - a decent person would if they are ignoring someone would stay out of their threads.

    Grow some gonads man.

    Somebody quote this for me....
    That's not mature or Christlike, man.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speak2Me View Post
    That's not mature or Christlike, man.

    That is the way he is, I am used to it. Just because I have him on ignore does not mean I can not come in and refute what he is trying to spread.
    '
    His problem is he is not here to discuss anything he is here to promote his truth.

    Speak2Me likes this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  14. #34
    Senior Member Ellsworth1943's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    A lot of opinions, very strange opinions, and very little truth in this thread.

  15. #35
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    That's another one. "Elements" never referred to items on the Periodical Chart you had to use in school. "Elements" were the basic beliefs of the Jewish Sacrificial system.

    you are no science major and you are not doing well with Bible facts either

    it's the Periodic Table, not the Periodical Chart



    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. II Peter 3:10

    yeah

    THOSE elements

    it's the Periodic Table, not the Periodical Chart

    as in Periodic Table of Elements






  16. #36
    He_reigns
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    That is the way he is, I am used to it. Just because I have him on ignore does not mean I can not come in and refute what he is trying to spread.
    '
    His problem is he is not here to discuss anything he is here to promote his truth.

    Are you a board moderator?

  17. #37
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    That would be earth, air, water, fire?

    Is there any more?
    you will have to use the horizontal bar as well as vertical

    and God made them all and can do with them as He will


    Periodic Table of Elements

    A Resource for Elementary, Middle School, and High School Students
    Group 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
    Period
    1 1
    H
    1.008
    2
    He
    4.003
    2 3
    Li
    6.94
    4
    Be
    9.012
    5
    B
    10.81
    6
    C
    12.01
    7
    N
    14.01
    8
    O
    16.00
    9
    F
    19.00
    10
    Ne
    20.18
    3 11
    Na
    22.99
    12
    Mg
    24.31
    13
    Al
    26.98
    14
    Si
    28.09
    15
    P
    30.97
    16
    S
    32.06
    17
    Cl
    35.45
    18
    Ar
    39.95
    4 19
    K
    39.10
    20
    Ca
    40.08
    21
    Sc
    44.96
    22
    Ti
    47.88
    23
    V
    50.94
    24
    Cr
    52.00
    25
    Mn
    54.94
    26
    Fe
    55.85
    27
    Co
    58.93
    28
    Ni
    58.69
    29
    Cu
    63.55
    30
    Zn
    65.39
    31
    Ga
    69.72
    32
    Ge
    72.64
    33
    As
    74.92
    34
    Se
    78.96
    35
    Br
    79.90
    36
    Kr
    83.79
    5 37
    Rb
    85.47
    38
    Sr
    87.62
    39
    Y
    88.91
    40
    Zr
    91.22
    41
    Nb
    92.91
    42
    Mo
    95.96
    43
    Tc
    (98)
    44
    Ru
    101.1
    45
    Rh
    102.9
    46
    Pd
    106.4
    47
    Ag
    107.9
    48
    Cd
    112.4
    49
    In
    114.8
    50
    Sn
    118.7
    51
    Sb
    121.8
    52
    Te
    127.6
    53
    I
    126.9
    54
    Xe
    131.3
    6 55
    Cs
    132.9
    56
    Ba
    137.3
    * 72
    Hf
    178.5
    73
    Ta
    180.9
    74
    W
    183.9
    75
    Re
    186.2
    76
    Os
    190.2
    77
    Ir
    192.2
    78
    Pt
    195.1
    79
    Au
    197.0
    80
    Hg
    200.5
    81
    Tl
    204.38
    82
    Pb
    207.2
    83
    Bi
    209.0
    84
    Po
    (209)
    85
    At
    (210)
    86
    Rn
    (222)
    7 87
    Fr
    (223)
    88
    Ra
    (226)
    ** 104
    Rf
    (267)
    105
    Db
    (268)
    106
    Sg
    (269)
    107
    Bh
    (270)
    108
    Hs
    (277)
    109
    Mt
    (278)
    110
    Ds
    (281)
    111
    Rg
    (282)
    112
    Cn
    (285)
    113
    Nh
    (286)
    114
    Fl
    (289)
    115
    Mc
    (289)
    116
    Lv
    (293)
    117
    Ts
    (294)
    118
    Og
    (294)


    Lanthanide Series* 57
    La
    138.9
    58
    Ce
    140.1
    59
    Pr
    140.9
    60
    Nd
    144.2
    61
    Pm
    (145)
    62
    Sm
    150.4
    63
    Eu
    152.0
    64
    Gd
    157.2
    65
    Tb
    158.9
    66
    Dy
    162.5
    67
    Ho
    164.9
    68
    Er
    167.3
    69
    Tm
    168.9
    70
    Yb
    173.0
    71
    Lu
    175.0
    Actinide Series** 89
    Ac
    (227)
    90
    Th
    232
    91
    Pa
    231
    92
    U
    238
    93
    Np
    (237)
    94
    Pu
    (244)
    95
    Am
    (243)
    96
    Cm
    (247)
    97
    Bk
    (247)
    98
    Cf
    (251)
    99
    Es
    (252)
    100
    Fm
    (257)
    101
    Md
    (258)
    102
    No
    (259)
    103
    Lr
    (262)



  18. #38
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    The elements that Peter was talking about "melting with fervent heat" are not chemicals/atoms there are the "elements" of the Jewish religion of the old covenant.

    2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (Greek - stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat?

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    G4747 stoicheion stoy-khi'-on

    neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748;

    something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively).


    KJV: element, principle, rudiment.
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Same usage occurs here:

    Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

    Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

    Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (Greek - stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    Angela53510 and Willie-T like this.

  19. #39
    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    The elements that Peter was talking about "melting with fervent heat" are not chemicals/atoms there are the "elements" of the Jewish religion of the old covenant.
    Bologna - Those are "elements of the world" you speak of [mans],
    they are not Gods Holy Convocations, made for God by God. {His Oracles}
    Last edited by prove-all; October 12th, 2017 at 11:35 PM.

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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    John calls the 144K firstfruits unto the lamb and God:

    Rev 14:4 these are they who with women were not defiled, for they are virgin; these are they who are following the Lamb whithersoever he may go; these were bought from among men -- a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb --

    Rev 1:6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    The correspondence between the above and Rev 20:6:

    Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    We find the same statement in Peter's letter to the scattered tribes:

    1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    1 Pet 2:9 and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light;

    And in James letter:

    James 1:1 James, of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ a servant, to the Twelve Tribes who are in the dispersion: Hail!

    James 1:18 having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

    The above is a very good reason to believe that the millennium saints were alive and reigning with Christ during the 1st century AD.

    If James is calling the 12 tribes he is writing to the first fruit then any "saints" ruling in a future yet to be "millennium" would make then "latter fruits not first fruits"
    There are the firstfruits of the resurrection, those who rose with Jesus at the 1st resurrection.

    And there are the firstfruits of the kingdom, those who accepted the kingdom on the Day of Pentecost and afterwards.

    2 separate groups.

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    By pickles in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: January 20th, 2012, 07:03 AM