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Thread: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Seeing as the opponents of Covenant Eschatology are bringing up the millennium in a thread discussing dispensationalism and progressive dispensationalism in an attempt to derail the thread this is their opportunity to have it out in whether John's millennial reign in the book of revelation is symbolic or literal.

    Rev 20:6 (Young's Literal) Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    But, I also would like for them to tell me that since God owns the cattle on a thousand hills (1,000, easily being just a portion of hills in a couple of states) then who owns the rest of the cows on the remaining several million hills in the world?

    It starts to become difficult to be too literal after awhile.......
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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Literal. Yahshua returns at the 7th and final trumpet,

    Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

    1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

    satan is chained for 1,000 years,

    Revelation 20:1-3, “And I saw a messenger coming down from the heaven, having the key to the pit of the deep and a great chain in his hand. And he seized the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and he threw him into the pit of the deep, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should lead the nations no more astray until the thousand years were ended. And after that he has to be released for a little while.”

    This is during that 1,000 years;

    Isayah 66:21-24, “And from them too I shall take for priests – for Lĕwites,” declares יהוה. For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand. And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה. And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!”

    Zecharyah 14:8-21, And in that day it shall be that living waters flow from Yerushalayim, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea, in summer as well as in winter. 9, And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one. 10, All the land shall be changed into a desert plain from Geḇa to Rimmon south of Yerushalayim, and she shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Binyamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Ḥanan’ĕl to the winepresses of the sovereign. 11, And they shall dwell in her, and there shall be no more utter destruction, but Yerushalayim shall be safely inhabited. 12, And this is the plague with which יהוה plagues all the people who fought against Yerushalayim: their flesh shall decay while they stand on their feet, and their eyes decay in their sockets, and their tongues decay in their mouths. 13, And it shall be in that day that a great confusion from יהוה is among them, and everyone of them shall seize the hand of his neighbor, and his hand rise up against his neighbor's hand. 14, And Yehuḏah shall fight at Yerushalayim as well. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together: gold, and silver, and garments in great quantities. 15, So also is the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that are in those camps – as this plague. 16, And it shall be that all who are left from all the nations which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 17, And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain. 18, And if the clan of Mitsrayim does not come up and enter in, then there is no rain. On them is the plague with which יהוה plagues the nations who do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 19, This is the punishment of Mitsrayim and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 20, In that day “SET-APART TO יהוה" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. And the pots in the House of יהוה shall be like the bowls before the sacrifice-place. 21, And every pot in Yerushalayim and Yehuḏah shall be set-apart to יהוה of hosts. And all those who sacrifice shall come and take them and cook in them. And there shall no longer be a merchant in the House of יהוה of hosts, in that day.”

    This is at the end of the 1,000 years;

    Revelation 20:1-3, "And I saw a messenger coming down from the heaven, having the key to the pit of the deep and a great chain in his hand. And he seized the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and he threw him into the pit of the deep, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should lead the nations no more astray until the thousand years were ended. And after that he has to be released for a little while.”

    Revelation 20:7-10, "And when the thousand years have ended, Satan shall be released from his prison, and he shall go out to lead the nations astray which are in the four corners of the earth, Goḡ and Maḡoḡ, to gather them together for battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. And they came up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the set-apart ones and the beloved city. And fire came down from Yah out of the heaven and consumed them. And the devil, who led them astray, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet are. And they shall be tortured day and night forever and ever."

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    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Seeing as the opponents of Covenant Eschatology are bringing up the millennium in a thread discussing dispensationalism and progressive dispensationalism in an attempt to derail the thread this is their opportunity to have it out in whether John's millennial reign in the book of revelation is symbolic or literal.

    Rev 20:6 (Young's Literal) Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    an attempt to derail the thread?

    didn't know you were teaching

    I thought this was a DISCUSSION forum

    people post threads to DISCUSS
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    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    But, I also would like for them to tell me that since God owns the cattle on a thousand hills (1,000, easily being just a portion of hills in a couple of states) then who owns the rest of the cows on the remaining several million hills in the world?

    It starts to become difficult to be too literal after awhile.......
    yeah

    no one is that stupid

    try another one

    when the elements burn, perhaps you can be at the bar-b-q
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    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    The problem with this sort of thread is that most of us know where each of us stand on the question and you are no more likely to change your position than those who disagree with you are. So what is the point?
    MarcR



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    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    an attempt to derail the thread?

    didn't know you were teaching

    I thought this was a DISCUSSION forum

    people post threads to DISCUSS
    Yes, discussing Covenant Eschatology in a dispensational thread is derailing as CE was not the topic.

    I'm all "ears" as to your understanding of the millennium.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    The problem with this sort of thread is that most of us know where each of us stand on the question and you are no more likely to change your position than those who disagree with you are. So what is the point?
    So what is the point of a discussion forum then?

    How's the weather over your way?

    Here it's sunny with a few clouds, scattered showers expected tomorrow.

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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Seeing as the opponents of Covenant Eschatology are bringing up the millennium in a thread discussing dispensationalism and progressive dispensationalism in an attempt to derail the thread this is their opportunity to have it out in whether John's millennial reign in the book of revelation is symbolic or literal.

    Rev 20:6 (Young's Literal) Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Locutus,

    Maybe someone was using the issue of the millennium in some particular way to derail the thread.

    But the issue of the millennium, in itself, is certainly within the scope of normal debate on eschatological views.



    I think there are better points to bring up, and better ways to debate the issue, for either side... but I don't think the millennium would be off topic.
    PennEd and Desertsrose like this.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Max, it was not the millennium that is the issue in that thread it was about trying to derail the thread with the views of the millennium according to Covenant Eschatology and some other points regarding CE - that was not the thread topic, the dispensational view is.

    If a person wants to bring up CE views of theological issues it belongs in thread of it's own

    This thread is open to ALL views on the millennium and is not restricted to CE, Reformed, Dispensational, RC or Orthodox.

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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Max, it was not the millennium that is the issue in that thread it was about trying to derail the thread with the views of the millennium according to Covenant Eschatology and some other points regarding CE - that was not the thread topic, the dispensational view is.

    If a person wants to bring up CE views of theological issues it belongs in thread of it's own

    This thread is open to ALL views on the millennium and is not restricted to CE, Reformed, Dispensational, RC or Orthodox.

    If dispensationalism was the topic, and the millennium is a common issue debated regarding dispensationalism, would it not be reasonable for a person to bring up a counter argument, covenant eschatology, and discuss either it's veracity or errors?

    How do counter-arguments to dispensational points not count as germane to a debate of dispensationalism?



    I don't care what gets debated, or who wins... I'm just not seeing the logic here.
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    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    yeah

    no one is that stupid

    try another one

    when the elements burn, perhaps you can be at the bar-b-q
    That's another one. "Elements" never referred to items on the Periodical Chart you had to use in school. "Elements" were the basic beliefs of the Jewish Sacrificial system.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________
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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    The first thing in my mind that needs to be addressed it who are those that partake in this:

    "Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again"

    I would say that is it the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel among others, but primarily is concerned with the 12 tribes.Is there any disagreement with this?
    Last edited by Locutus; 4 Days Ago at 08:04 PM.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    If dispensationalism was the topic, and the millennium is a common issue debated regarding dispensationalism, would it not be reasonable for a person to bring up a counter argument, covenant eschatology, and discuss either it's veracity or errors?

    How do counter-arguments to dispensational points not count as germane to a debate of dispensationalism?

    I don't care what gets debated, or who wins... I'm just not seeing the logic here.
    I disagree Max, if I was discussing dispensationalism in comparison to covenant eschatology then yes it would be germane.

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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    The first thing in my mind that needs to be addressed it who are those that partake in this:

    "Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again"

    I would say that is it the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel among others, but primarily is concerned with the 12 tribes.Is there any disagreement with this?
    Jesus was the 1st resurrection, 1 Cor 15:23-28.

    When He resurrected, He brought with Him a host of captives, Eph 4:8, from paradise.

    These would be the 144,000,

    the multitude that no man can count (MNMCC),

    the 24 elders,

    those seen over the sea of glass in Rev 15,

    those who rule with Jesus for a symbolic 1000 yrs.

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    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    I disagree Max, if I was discussing dispensationalism in comparison to covenant eschatology then yes it would be germane.
    If covenant eschatology is a counter argument, and we're not in a classroom but in a debate room... then a counter argument is inherently germane to any debate.

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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    That's another one. "Elements" never referred to items on the Periodical Chart you had to use in school. "Elements" were the basic beliefs of the Jewish Sacrificial system.
    That would be earth, air, water, fire?

    Is there any more?

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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23, “But now Messiah has been raised from the dead, and has become the first-fruit of those having fallen asleep. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a Man. For as all die in Aḏam, so also all shall be made alive in Messiah . And each in his own order: Messiah the first-fruits, then those who are of Messiah at His coming,”
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Yeah the millenium is literal.
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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Millennium literal or symbolic?

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    Jesus was the 1st resurrection, 1 Cor 15:23-28.

    When He resurrected, He brought with Him a host of captives, Eph 4:8, from paradise.

    These would be the 144,000,

    the multitude that no man can count (MNMCC),

    the 24 elders,

    those seen over the sea of glass in Rev 15,

    those who rule with Jesus for a symbolic 1000 yrs.
    John calls the 144K firstfruits unto the lamb and God:

    Rev 14:4 these are they who with women were not defiled, for they are virgin; these are they who are following the Lamb whithersoever he may go; these were bought from among men -- a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb --

    Rev 1:6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    The correspondence between the above and Rev 20:6:

    Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    We find the same statement in Peter's letter to the scattered tribes:

    1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    1 Pet 2:9 and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light;

    And in James letter:

    James 1:1 James, of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ a servant, to the Twelve Tribes who are in the dispersion: Hail!

    James 1:18 having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

    The above is a very good reason to believe that the millennium saints were alive and reigning with Christ during the 1st century AD.

    If James is calling the 12 tribes he is writing to the first fruit then any "saints" ruling in a future yet to be "millennium" would make then "latter fruits not first fruits"

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