Why Here in the BDF?
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Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: John 16:13
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26
"... for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." Mark 13:11
"He that is of God heareth God's words:..." John 8:47
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1 Thess 2:13
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26
"... for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." Mark 13:11
"He that is of God heareth God's words:..." John 8:47
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1 Thess 2:13
hi, max, i'm wondering why you feel Reformed theology is more philosophy than theology?
(with apologies for derailing... don't know where else to ask.
)
i appreciate your graciousness in this thread! just wanted to add all the Reformed i know (which, i grant you, doesn't number in the thousands or anything) share the Gospel because God commanded it, yes, and because we really, actually love other people and want to see as many come to Christ as may be.
but i think another, more cogent reason is in 1 Cor 1:21. we know we ourselves heard the message preached, and believed, and this is the method by which God has ordained men and women, boys and girls, come to Christ.
thank God for that beautiful 'foolishness'.
(with apologies for derailing... don't know where else to ask.
)i appreciate your graciousness in this thread! just wanted to add all the Reformed i know (which, i grant you, doesn't number in the thousands or anything) share the Gospel because God commanded it, yes, and because we really, actually love other people and want to see as many come to Christ as may be.
but i think another, more cogent reason is in 1 Cor 1:21. we know we ourselves heard the message preached, and believed, and this is the method by which God has ordained men and women, boys and girls, come to Christ.
thank God for that beautiful 'foolishness'.
Ty for being so polite, I'll try to respond in kind.
1. We have a slight misunderstanding; I didn't say Reformed theology IS more philosophy than theology, but I think I said in another post that your opposition could make a claim to that effect, and have some grounds to debate that.
2. My personal opinion is NOT that Reformed Theology is more philosophy than theology, but rather, that it is more philosophically based than Arminian theology.
This is neither good nor bad.
This was NOT meant to be an indictment, but merely an observation.
I also think many reformed theologians would agree on this issue, about the more philosophical nature of classical, reformed, systematic theology.
Those who are really on the attack against reformed theology MIGHT INDEED make the claim that it's more philosophy than theology.... just as some Calvinists might refer to the Arrminians as uneducated bumpkins, lol... both sides can be pretty uncharitable at times.
My personal views, about handling these debates more politely, is NOT to say we should give up our convictions, and ever push doctrine aside like it doesn't matter.
Doctrine is vitally important, and NO CHRISTIAN has ANY reason to EVER lay aside Biblical doctrine, and just forget about it, and stop taking it seriously, just because someone says, "Let's all just get along."
There are some who take this approach, and just want to ignore doctrine altogether, and I really don't think that's Biblical.
As much as we all tire of debate, I would much rather engage in debate than push doctrine aside as if it doesn't matter... it's far too important.
However, I think adults should be able to hold their views, as they feel convicted, while ALSO being polite.
And ya know, I've had bad days too.
We all have times when we lose our composure.
But that doesn't mean "losing our composure" is a good plan.
Hope my answers made sense and weren't too unclear.
One more point:
I've learned a lot about classical philosophy from Reformed Theologians.
I don't think that using some philosophical reasoning in the formulation of your theology has any logical power to make your arguments either automatically right or wrong.
It is just a type of logical approach, and the results can just as easily be good or bad.
But let's look at how this particular matter, this one particular issue, CAN, and sometimes IS, spun by both sides... as both sides get away from logic, and just move into the realm of "rhetoric".
* One side can say, "We use a more philosophical approach, because we understand sound reasoning and logic better than you."
(You understand the weight of this if you remember classical Philosophy is grounded in classical logic)
* The other side can say, "You use philosophy instead of scripture because you just don't like what the scripture actually says."
Not only are both sides in this example being uncharitable, but NEITHER side in this example has an argument with any logical power.
Both sides are just using rhetoric... spin... to try and support their side.
There is no logical, necessary weight, in either argument.
Both sides are claiming a chain of causal events which they have no power to logically prove.
This is rhetoric.
This is what happens all the time.
Sometimes humans delve into rhetoric intentionally, in order to mislead, but I think more often it's unintentional... just a thing fallen humans slip into when we argue.
Regardless of how we get there, we often get there.
Biblical debate slips away from scripture, and sound reasoning, and slips into rhetoric.
Both sides do this.
It may not even be intentional.
But both sides do this... a lot.
: )
I've learned a lot about classical philosophy from Reformed Theologians.
I don't think that using some philosophical reasoning in the formulation of your theology has any logical power to make your arguments either automatically right or wrong.
It is just a type of logical approach, and the results can just as easily be good or bad.
But let's look at how this particular matter, this one particular issue, CAN, and sometimes IS, spun by both sides... as both sides get away from logic, and just move into the realm of "rhetoric".
* One side can say, "We use a more philosophical approach, because we understand sound reasoning and logic better than you."
(You understand the weight of this if you remember classical Philosophy is grounded in classical logic)
* The other side can say, "You use philosophy instead of scripture because you just don't like what the scripture actually says."
Not only are both sides in this example being uncharitable, but NEITHER side in this example has an argument with any logical power.
Both sides are just using rhetoric... spin... to try and support their side.
There is no logical, necessary weight, in either argument.
Both sides are claiming a chain of causal events which they have no power to logically prove.
This is rhetoric.
This is what happens all the time.
Sometimes humans delve into rhetoric intentionally, in order to mislead, but I think more often it's unintentional... just a thing fallen humans slip into when we argue.
Regardless of how we get there, we often get there.
Biblical debate slips away from scripture, and sound reasoning, and slips into rhetoric.
Both sides do this.
It may not even be intentional.
But both sides do this... a lot.
: )
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You ignore that the Bible states.
Isaiah 46 NIV
8. “Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels.
9. Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’
11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
There is a divide between Arminian and Calvinist beliefs. To claim Calvinist beliefs are non Biblical is totally ignorant of their basis of beliefs. Download and read the Westminster Confession, Canons of Dort, and Heidelberg Catechism.
Westminster Confession of Faith - Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics
Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics › wcf_with_proofs
Canon of Dort
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...DA0AQFghQMAU&usg=AOvVaw0KnII8xCnK_FQqZv_Ffjha
There is also the Heidelberg Catechism
All of these Calvinist documents detailing their beliefs heavily documenting the parts of the Bible the concepts come from. Ranting it is false doctrine is foolish. The core beliefs of the Apostles Creed are non negotiable but the rest of the Bible can be looked at from different points of view. There are documents listing the different stances on doctrinal points and list when each point goes into heresy on either side of the line. Quit trying to make everything you disagree with be heresy.
Isaiah 46 NIV
8. “Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels.
9. Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’
11. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
There is a divide between Arminian and Calvinist beliefs. To claim Calvinist beliefs are non Biblical is totally ignorant of their basis of beliefs. Download and read the Westminster Confession, Canons of Dort, and Heidelberg Catechism.
Westminster Confession of Faith - Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics
Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics › wcf_with_proofs
Canon of Dort
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...DA0AQFghQMAU&usg=AOvVaw0KnII8xCnK_FQqZv_Ffjha
There is also the Heidelberg Catechism
All of these Calvinist documents detailing their beliefs heavily documenting the parts of the Bible the concepts come from. Ranting it is false doctrine is foolish. The core beliefs of the Apostles Creed are non negotiable but the rest of the Bible can be looked at from different points of view. There are documents listing the different stances on doctrinal points and list when each point goes into heresy on either side of the line. Quit trying to make everything you disagree with be heresy.
Oh Wow really??? You mean...... you're actually saying..... Christians can listen to the preaching and teaching of other Christians?? Wow! We can actually read books besides the Bible some times!? We can be helped and taught the Word of God by other Christians and go to church hearing from other Christians? Wow....
You mean we can read devotionals by other Christians and actually be blessed and encouraged???? and even share what we read by other Christians in order to be taught and even enlightened in the Holy Spirit as He uses each one of us in the body of Christ?
Wow.... this is indeed going to be shocking news for some of the people here on CC. I sure do hope they read your thread Preacher.
All kidding aside., the 5 points of Calvinism sort of explains the sovereignty of God problem for some people and puts things in a package for those who need a nice neat package. I used to be a 5 point Calvinist (as they say) and it all seemed to make perfect sense for a time.
But I'm no longer of that Calvinistic mindset because I believe there is too much of the unknown about the free will of man and the sovereignty of God that cannot be explained. But I do understand why many prefer to look at salvation and God's sovereignty in this way. I don't believe those who hold to it think they are better than others. It's just a way of trying to understand God's sovereignty. Personally I find it is AOK to allow God to be mysterious to the human mind as long as I'm confident He loves me. His love for mankind is a super mystery and takes faith to believe.
So everything else need not be totally understood anymore. When you know the love of God IN Christ you can rest in the fact that God is beyond finding out but there are things He allows us and wants us to know. His love is one major truth He wants us all to know. And the other things He gives us faith to believe such as how He can save rotten sinners and make them 100% righteous saints.
But I'm no longer of that Calvinistic mindset because I believe there is too much of the unknown about the free will of man and the sovereignty of God that cannot be explained. But I do understand why many prefer to look at salvation and God's sovereignty in this way. I don't believe those who hold to it think they are better than others. It's just a way of trying to understand God's sovereignty. Personally I find it is AOK to allow God to be mysterious to the human mind as long as I'm confident He loves me. His love for mankind is a super mystery and takes faith to believe.
So everything else need not be totally understood anymore. When you know the love of God IN Christ you can rest in the fact that God is beyond finding out but there are things He allows us and wants us to know. His love is one major truth He wants us all to know. And the other things He gives us faith to believe such as how He can save rotten sinners and make them 100% righteous saints.