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Dec 28, 2016
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You can call me "joanie" But either way., mythical doesn't apply either. If God's will is that none should perish and that all should come to repentance than all should be coming.... and yet not all will. So you need to deal with that.
More ripping 2 Peter 3:9 of I context I see.

I did a blog on this very verse. In fact, I have a 'Eisegesis series' where I go through and show how ppl pour their beliefs(eisegesis) into verses and/or passages of scripture...




In today’s churches, very little exegesis is being used, and eisegesis is being abused as you can tell by the state of said churches. I will attempt to clear the muddied water and tackle some verses that ppl want to misapply to fit their theology. I will use the NIV and, to a lesser extent, the NASB. So, here we go…

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9 NIV]
Now, ppl want to focus on the part of this verse that says not wanting anyone to perish and then say that God desires all to be saved. But, look at who the target audience is who Peter was writing to. In 2 Peter 1:1-2 he wrote Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. It was written to believers. The whole context of this second book Peter wrote is addressed to believers. Here are several examples of this truth:

His divine power has given us everything…[vs 3]

Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises….
[vs 4]
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories…[vs 16]

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture…[vs 20]

……just as there will be false teachers among you.[2 Peter 2:1]

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories….[vs 3]

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you….[2 Peter 3:1]

I want you to recall the words spoken….
[vs 2]

Above all, you must understand that in the last days…..[vs 3]

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:[vs 8]

…Instead he is patient with you[vs 9]

The context of 3:9 is that God is not willing any of His sheep would die lost. In Romans 8:28-30, we can see a clear chain…hence being referred to as the ‘Golden Chain of Redemption’, and all of this chain has them being linked to God’s sovereign choice of those He elected to salvation. Look at how Paul wrote this…And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

First, we can see that God works for the good those who love Him. Now, who are the ones who love Him? The regenerate, the saved, as we can read Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. [1 John 4:7] Those who truly love God have been born of Him. He has given them a new heart and Spirit[Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26]. So, those who love Him have been born of Him, and He works for the good of them.

Second, we can read that those who love Him, have been born of Him, and these who have been born of Him, He works for the good of them, these are those who are called according to His purpose. These are those who He foreknew. Now, this is not that foreseen faith where He looked down through the corridors of time to see those who would receive Him and He elected them accordingly, as this impugns His omniscience. The word ‘foreknew’, in context, means to be pre-arranged. Now, we can find God’s foreknowledge in Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.[1 Peter 1:1-2] So, God’s elect have been chosen based upon His foreknowledge, His pre-arrangement, in giving them to His Son to redeem for the world of lost ppl.

Third, we can read that those who love Him, are those who were born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now, where ppl who don’t understand predestination correctly go off the rails is they misunderstand it and accuse us of believing God predestines ppl to hell. They believe that any predestination is double predestination. That is not what most Calvinists believe. Now, I am sure there are some who hold to this gross error, but most mainstream Calvinists do not. When Adam fell, the whole human race fell, being in Adam. God had to do nothing to ensure their eternal ruin. However, by sending His Son to die for a MULTITUDE of undeserving sinners, He predestined them for heaven. So to understand predestination in its proper context is a most God-exalting doctrine. We can read where election took place in For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—[Ephesians 1:4-5] Before the beginning of time, He chose a ppl to give to His Son to redeem from the world of lost ppl.

Fourth, we read that those who love Him, are those who were born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, He also called. Now, how is it that He calls ppl today? It is through the gospel of the Christ. We can read But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Romans 10:8-17] And also For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:18-21] And lastly And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.[Ephesians 1:13]All of this links up. It takes the hearing of the gospel to bring ppl to faith in Christ. That is how God saves ppl.

Fifth, those who love Him, are those who have been born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, those He also called, He also justified. Now, how are ppl justified? It is by faith. As we can read Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.[Romans 5:1] Now, seeing that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22, and those who are in the flesh(devoid of God’s Spirit in its proper context) can not possess a fruit of the Spirit, it shows that faith is a gift of God. See Romans 12:3 and Hebrews 12:2 as well. We can further read about God justifying ppl apart from works where However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.[Romans 4:5] And also Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.[Romans 8:33] And in Galatians 3:8 it states that God justifies the nations(heathen) by faith. So, if faith is innate within man and not a gift, man can justify himself, and voids all verses that state it is God who justifies.

Sixth, those who love Him, are those who have been born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, those He called, those He also justified, He also glorified. Now, what is glorification? It is that moment at the consummation of all things, where we are changed into the image of the Christ, given our glorified body, and appear in His likeness. We can find this where Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.[1 Corinthians 15:51-54] We are changed from mortal to immortal, from perishable to imperishable. What a day that will be for those who look forward to His coming in the cloud!!

So in closing, I have done my very best to show you how God is not willing that any of His ppl die lost. The context of 2 Peter 3:9 should bear this out, if you are willing to lay aside your presuppositions and allow the bible to teach you. We know that many will die eternally lost, away from the presence of God, and if God is not willing any should perish, many are dying in opposition to His will. Are you willing to say that aloud to others? Does God’s will triumph over man’s? Is He too weak to overcome man’s will? I’ll let you decide.
 
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joaniemarie

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Been there.... read that....man is full of his own opinions and reasoning about the mystery of Godliness. I do not agree with your blog or with those you have quoted who agree with you. I told you., I'm probably better versed than you on this subject. I'm not bothered by the seemingly contradictions that our human minds can't comprehend. I'm confident that God is able to get us and keep us better than we are ourselves.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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God really tries to save ppl, but He can't overcome that pesky free will. Boy, how weak is He? :(
 

shrume

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...........We know that many will die eternally lost, away from the presence of God
That's right.

and if God is not willing any should perish, many are dying in opposition to His will.
That's right.

Are you willing to say that aloud to others?
Absolutely.

Does God’s will triumph over man’s?
Not always.

Is He too weak to overcome man’s will?
He will not override a person's free will.

I’ll let you decide.
Already have, long ago.
 

Endoscopy

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Hard to tell which is more lame, the site or the video.
Correct. Civil courts tried and condemned Servetus to death by burning at the stake. Calvin had nothing to do with his trial for heresy and plead for a painless death after he was convicted. The man was an atheist Calvin tried to turn Christian. He gave him a copy of his Institutes and Servetus wrote nasty things in it and returned it. In the city this took place rejecting Jesus was a capital offense. Servetus was causing trouble and the authorities took action.
 
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I see it a lot "God will not over ride man's free will" but is this in the bible?

There are verses that say "I will cause them to walk in my commandments" in Ezekiel. What about that verses? Or the verses where God ordains men to do something?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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I see it a lot "God will not over ride man's free will" but is this in the bible?

There are verses that say "I will cause them to walk in my commandments" in Ezekiel. What about that verses? Or the verses where God ordains men to do something?
Or, cause them to will and to do of His good pleasure? Philippians 2:13

Or, make them to lie down in green pastures? Psalm 23:2

Sounds to me like the Shepherd and his sheep, and God being, well, God, which offends people. Particularly those who say they know him...
 
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Correct. Civil courts tried and condemned Servetus to death by burning at the stake. Calvin had nothing to do with his trial for heresy and plead for a painless death after he was convicted. The man was an atheist Calvin tried to turn Christian. He gave him a copy of his Institutes and Servetus wrote nasty things in it and returned it. In the city this took place rejecting Jesus was a capital offense. Servetus was causing trouble and the authorities took action.
Then there are also the lies about Jacques Gruet cast upon Calvin.
 
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Thanks to someone for giving me reputation. God bless you
 

Endoscopy

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If you will study compatiblism, your problem will be solved. Man has a will that freely moves within its nature, but can not and will not go beyond that. True freedom of the will is only found in the Christ(John 8 and Romans 8:2 for starters), and even in that freedom, we are confined to the confines of that new nature bestowed unto us from Him.
There are two opposing views. Arminianism and Calvinism. Here is a summary of both.

Five Points of Arminianism vs Calvinism


Arminianism is a system of belief that attempts to explain the relationship between God’s sovereignty and mankind’s free will, especially in relation to salvation. Arminianism is named after Jacobus Arminius (1560—1609), a Dutch theologian. While Calvinism emphasizes the sovereignty of God, Arminians created the five points of Arminianism and Calvinists responded with the five points of Calvinism. The source for the five points of Arminianism didn't have scripture references. They can be found by going to an Arminianism site.


Five Points of Arminianism


1. Partial Depravity – humanity is depraved but still able to seek God. We are fallen and tainted by sin but not to the extent that we cannot chose to come to God and accept salvation, with the help of prevenient grace from God. Given such grace, human will is free and has the power to yield to the influence of the Spirit. Note: many Arminians reject partial depravity and hold a view very close to Calvinistic total depravity.


2. Conditional Election – God only “chooses” those whom He knows will choose to believe. No one is predetermined for either heaven or hell.


3. Unlimited Atonement – Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus’ death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him.


4. Resistible Grace – God’s call to be saved can be resisted and/or rejected. We can resist God’s pull toward salvation if we choose to.


5. Conditional Salvation – Christians can lose their salvation if they actively reject the Holy Spirit’s influence in their lives. The maintenance of salvation is required for a Christian to retain it. Note: many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."




Five Points of Calvinism


The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the Saints. This was created in response to the five points of Arminianism. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:


1. Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).


2. Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.


3. Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).


4. Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).


5. Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Let me simplify this really good post of yours by breaking it into the two camps...

There are two opposing views. Arminianism and Calvinism. Here is a summary of both.

Five Points of Arminianism


1. Partial Depravity – humanity is depraved but still able to seek God. We are fallen and tainted by sin but not to the extent that we cannot chose to come to God and accept salvation, with the help of prevenient grace from God. Given such grace, human will is free and has the power to yield to the influence of the Spirit. Note: many Arminians reject partial depravity and hold a view very close to Calvinistic total depravity.


2. Conditional Election – God only “chooses” those whom He knows will choose to believe. No one is predetermined for either heaven or hell.


3. Unlimited Atonement – Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus’ death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him.


4. Resistible Grace – God’s call to be saved can be resisted and/or rejected. We can resist God’s pull toward salvation if we choose to.


5. Conditional Salvation – Christians can lose their salvation if they actively reject the Holy Spirit’s influence in their lives. The maintenance of salvation is required for a Christian to retain it. Note: many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."
Focuses on man, and not God, where it does not belong.




Five Points of Calvinism


The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the Saints. This was created in response to the five points of Arminianism. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:


1. Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).


2. Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.


3. Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).


4. Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).


5. Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
Focuses on God. Put the emphasis on God, where it rightly belongs.
 
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The Bible says that all human beings are sinners by birth and have a sin nature. But that does not automatically mean that they ALWAYS choose wrong. That is a misrepresentation that has been promoted by some. Why don't we let the Bible tell us whether they ALWAYS choose wrong?

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...(Rom 2:12-15).

To fail to bring this to people's attention and deliberately suppress this truth is in fact to deceive others.

A careful study of the kings of Judah will show anyone who wants the truth that evil fathers produced righteous sons, and righteous fathers produced evil sons. These kings were either following the Word of God and their conscience, or failing to do so and choosing evil deliberately.
u say that we have a sin nature but then u also say that anyone who wants the truth can just follow their conscience. so either we can search God and our will isnt bound or it is bound and we dont want nothing to do wtih God u see........... i cant see this middle ground u are on in the bible..........

speaking of whats by nature and doing things contained in the law u see paul also said:

[h=1]Ephesians 2King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[/FONT]
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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u say that we have a sin nature but then u also say that anyone who wants the truth can just follow their conscience. so either we can search God and our will isnt bound or it is bound and we dont want nothing to do wtih God u see........... i cant see this middle ground u are on in the bible..........
1. I did not say anything about searching for God in that post. However it is God the Holy Spirit who has revealed to us (through Paul) that the conscience contains the Law (the Ten Commandments), and that there have been (and are) unsaved people who follow their conscience and thus do right. That is what that passage says, whether it fits your theology or not.

2. This debunks the notion first proposed by Augustine, and then promoted by the Reformers (who were spiritually "enslaved" to Augustine) that "the will is a slave" and as a result the unregenerate can do nothing good.

3. Now even as far as searching for God goes, it is the LORD Himself who addresses all human beings (in the unregenerate state) and says "SEEK YE THE LORD". Please note and digest this Scripture (Isa 55:6,7):

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

4. Since this is addressed to those who are dead in their trespasses and sins, it means that in spite of the fact that the natural man is spiritually dead, the power of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation) as well as the power of the Holy Spirit (to convince and convict sinners) is more than sufficient to cause sinners to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is only those who obey the Gospel who are then given the gift of the Holy Spirit, who then regenerates them (John 1:12,13).
 
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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Let me simplify this really good post of yours by breaking it into the two camps...



Focuses on man, and not God, where it does not belong.






Focuses on God. Put the emphasis on God, where it rightly belongs.
The two points of view go back to an assumption about God. Arminianism believes God doesn't actively act today while Calvinism believes God is actively acting today. Thus the Arminian view of man's efforts and the Calvinist view of God’s intervention.
 
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i just thought of this u see..... if God wants to save everyone, can influence people but people must choose on their own. why dont he just give a similar experience to everyone like Paul and job well done???? why did He reveal His son in a small town and send a few apostles to the world, and not to the entire world straight away u see.

i only thought of this because: if u are reformed its no problem....... u know God did it all for His glory and good will and purpose . makes sense right? or am i just going bananas again
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Arminianism believes God doesn't actively act today while Calvinism believes God is actively acting today. Thus the Arminian view of man's efforts and the Calvinist view of God’s intervention.
This is a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the two view. All Christians -- regardless -- believe that God is actively involved in the affairs of humanity today, and also actively involved in the salvation of souls.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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i just thought of this u see..... if God wants to save everyone, can influence people but people must choose on their own. why dont he just give a similar experience to everyone like Paul and job well done????
Job also had all kinds of questions for God, but never did get an answer for those specific questions. As to Paul, he was chosen specifically to be the apostle that he would be. And all the other apostles were also chosen specifically for their apostleship. On the other hand, if God were choosing sinners for salvation, He would be choosing all of humanity, since that is what His desire is.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17).

But since God has laid down specific conditions for sinners to be saved, they must either obey the Gospel or be damned.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18).
 

unobtrusive

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Jul 23, 2017
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We should seek the heart of God first. He has emotions as we do because we are made that way, and He did it. If we do not seek His heart, and His living principles, we will never be able to love Him as He desires. Jesus was a man of sorrows. Why? Think about the real truth.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus wept.(John 11:35) Why? Because we think He should do as we would wish. Look at Mary's statement to Jesus, and you will see what makes Him cry.

Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. (John 11:32)

Focus on the personage of our Lord first. What we see, IF we search, will "draw" us toward Him, and then real love can happen.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

One cannot love, or be "drawn" toward another unless they esteem their character after sincerely searching for the personage of who they really are. He promises if we search for Him, we will indeed find Him.

 
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