1948, 1967 - not biblically based.

[Locutus]

The claim by our dispensational brothers that the return to the land in the 20th century is the fulfillment of prophecy is not based on the conditions of return in the bible, i.e. that of repentance and obedience to the old covenant:

Moses and Nehemiah spells out the conditions for any return to the land:

Deu 30:1 So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deu 30:2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons

Deu 30:3 then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
.
.
Neh 1:7 “We have acted very corruptly against You and have not kept the commandments, nor the statutes, nor the ordinances which You commanded Your servant Moses.

Neh 1:8 “Remember the word which You commanded Your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful I will scatter you among the peoples;

Neh 1:9 but if you return to Me and keep My commandments and do them, though those of you who have been scattered were in the most remote part of the heavens, I will gather them from there and will bring them to the place where I have chosen to cause My name to dwell.’

The facts are the majority of those that occupied the land were and still are atheists who neither repented and keep the commandments.

There is no biblically mandated conditions for a return to the land in disobedience. Therefore prophetically this supposed return is of zero significance.

 

[Snoozy]

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

they are gathered in unbelief, then cleansed by God as it goes on to say. time of Jacob's trouble, and if you believe it happened in 70ad well this will be part 2 heheh.

 

[Locutus]

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

The above must have been really tiring for you as it seems to started to snooze when it came to continuing the context:

Ezek 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So those people in the land are walking in the statues and keeping his judgments? They've got the new heart and new spirit while rejecting Jesus.

Likely story.......epic fail......

 

[dcontroversal]

Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

they are gathered in unbelief, then cleansed by God as it goes on to say. time of Jacob's trouble, and if you believe it happened in 70ad well this will be part 2 heheh.

AMEN....the cyborg will never assimilate with the truth concerning Israel and the fact that the God of heaven is the God of timing.......

 

[Snoozy]

i said that they are gathered in unbelief and then cleansed later.

u just quoted the verses and i said the same thing? how is it a fail? they will be walking in his statues and keeping his commandments. read my text again thats what i said.

 

[Locutus]

So now we have two pundits claiming the return to land was in unbelief and disobedience ignoring the context of Ezekiel.

Nothing new here.

 

[Snoozy]

AMEN....the cyborg will never assimilate with the truth concerning Israel and the fact that the God of heaven is the God of timing.......

hi there uce. u are right.

we can see He is a God of timing when they ask Him:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[Snoozy]

So now we have two pundits claiming the return to land was in unbelief and disobedience ignoring the context of Ezekiel.

Nothing new here.

ezekiel said they are gathered in unbelief and then they will be cleansed i posted the verses. God said He dont do it for their sake, but for His name sake! verse 25 says THEN i will sprinkle clean water.

u just dont see it?

what are the odds of Israel being back in the land? and not only back those guys there dont even know nothing, dont even know how to get saved i dont reckon and still they say we will defend ourself. and God i believe has helped them. alot of the soldiers who went against israel in 1967 saw angels stand right there. many of them got saved.
the odds of them beating 5 bigger nations are slim to NONE its a miracle. FOR SURE its a miracle of God. they aint lost one war, because they cant afford to lose none. they are surrounded by enemies just like the bible says. zechariah says.

 

[Locutus]

i said that they are gathered in unbelief and then cleansed later.

And where does it say that?

The conditions are a new spirit, new heart and then a return to the land - you have it arse about face.

If the "gathering" in unbelief "theory" is true, then 70 years later they are still waiting for the new spirit and heart.

Likely story.

Ezekiel would not be contradicting God's word to Moses in Deuteronomy.

 

[Snoozy]

And where does it say that?

it says that in verse22 that God isnt doing it for Israel's sake, because they been good, but because of His name's sake who the israelites have profaned among the heathen.
then in verse 24 God says He will gather them and bring em to the land. in verse 25 it says then i will sprinkle them with clean water.
time of Jacob's trouble is probably what will be used to clean em up.

 

[Locutus]

No mention of "Jacob's trouble" in the text of Ezekiel - you are dreaming - the reality says otherwise - 70 years in unbelief.

 

[tanakh]

I think the confusion regarding the return of the Jews to Israel lies in peoples ideas behind the reasoning of it. They are not there because they have pleased God but for judgement at Armageddon. The Bible states that only a third of them will be saved. God is in control of events in the last days. It is him that will allow the nations to attack Israel just as he allowed Assyria Babylon and Rome to conquer them in the past. Christians see Israel winning wars and think God is pleased with them. In truth God is biding his time until he is ready for the second coming and judgement on the world that includes those who claim to be part of Israel but are not.

 

[Desertsrose]

And where does it say that?

The conditions are a new spirit, new heart and then a return to the land - you have it arse about face.

If the "gathering" in unbelief "theory" is true, then 70 years later they are still waiting for the new spirit and heart.

Likely story.

Ezekiel would not be contradicting God's word to Moses in Deuteronomy.

Hi Locutus,

The regathering and the rebirth of the nation of Israel is no fluke. The way God decides to do what he does is His alone. He doesn't counsel us when He decides to move on Israel or on any nation.

If we believe that God is Sovereign, we know that what happens in this world is because He either deliberately moved to make it happen, or He has allowed mankind to do what they will within His Sovereign plan(s).

When we read scripture, we expect it to happen almost immediately when in actuality many of the accounts we read about in scripture may have taken years for prophecy to be fulfilled.

My thoughts based on the pieces of the puzzle I've begun to put together are that while Israel's regathering and becoming a nation happened in 1948 without repentance, it's still a partial fulfilling of God's purpose and will for Israel.

As dcon said, it's all in timing. Which none of us know the day or hour......not even Jesus knows it.

It may have escaped your notice along with many others including myself, but there are still more Jews scattered among the nations than are actually in Israel.

So while all the scriptures aren't fulfilled as yet, the move of God to have Jews in their land to prepare for God to fulfill His purpose seems obvious to those who have eyes to see.

There are Jews who are continually returning to Israel today. I believe this will continue up to the day of Jacob's trouble. It's an ongoing prophecy being fulfilled.

Jerusalem will be a cup of reeling for all nations. This is happening today and the intensity will increase to the point of war; the battle of Armageddon.

The land is cultivated and not desolate which is part of fulfilled prophecy.

In prophecy we must take all the prophecies into consideration. When the tribulation period ends is when Israel repents as a nation. They are like pieces to a puzzle and we must take all of God's counsel, not just favored scripture.

Consider also that only 1/3rd of Israel will return to the Lord. That means 2/3rd's will have nothing to do with God. So the leaders of Israel, their laws and politicians are probably going to be a part of the 2/3rd's that will die by the sword in the battle of Armageddon.

So it's not wise to expect Israel to repent as a nation before many things take place first. But the regathering and issues like that is God's preparations for His hand to move on the 1/3 remnant right before the millennial reign of Christ.

 

[garee]

Hi Locutus,

The regathering and the rebirth of the nation of Israel is no fluke. The way God decides to do what he does is His alone. He doesn't counsel us when He decides to move on Israel or on any nation.

I would offer. All Israel as born again new creatures typified and neither male or female Jew nor Gentile. Her land, Christ's bride is the new heavenly Jerusalem .And not the corrupted land the earthly Jerusalem use as a type or shadow up until the refomation .

The rebirth of the nation of many nations, the kingdom of United Nations began before God called Abram whose mother was a Hittite and father a Amorite and changed His name to represent his own self a the father of a multitude of nations . (every nation) God who is not a man as us is not the father of one nation never was never will be.

 

[Mem]

That Hosea was instructed to redeem his prostitute wife, and especially considering 14:4 regarding Israel's call to return, and future blessing, saying "I will heal their apostasy, I will love them freely, For my anger has turned away from them," it would seem to restoration before repentance does seem possible, if not even cause for eventual repentance more probable.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no biblically mandated conditions for a return to the land in disobedience. Therefore prophetically this supposed return is of zero significance.

Another unprofitable anti-Dispensationalist thread.

Zionism was never a spiritual movement. It was purely secular and an attempt to establish the secular state of Israel. While 1948 may not have been a literal "fulfilment" of the ancient prophecies regarding the redemption and restoration of Israel, it was still a part God's overall plan to have Jews in Palestine at the second coming of Christ.

So even though the Eastern European and European Jews came to Israel while rejecting Messiah, many Orthodox Jews also came with them believing that Messiah would come. Now there are plans to build a third temple in Jerusalem and resume the animal sacrifices under the Old Covenant. All of these things are moving towards the time when the Antichrist will sit in that temple and claim that he is God. The Antichrist will present himself as the "true" Messiah, while blaspheming God and Christ. Many Jews will be deceived, and indeed the whole world will be deceived.

Therefore to discount the creation of the state of Israel is to put on Preterist blinders and forget about all that will happen until the second coming of Christ. That is why they make the claim that Christ already came in AD 70 and is now reigning on earth. Simply more delusion.